Cult of Personality in Taekwondo

[mastercole]

I've seen a picture of Kano Sensei in judo dojo and also Tohei Sensei's picture in Ki Society dojo. Some hapkido dojang put photos of GM Ji and GM Choi up on the wall as well. My original hapkido teacher had a big picture of himself up on the wall of his dojang in Korea, and then here. When he retired, he gave me that portrait, which other students really want. He gave me all his stuff really and there is still more he said I have to pick up. I don't have any negative feelings about hanging portrait photos of one's teacher on the walls of the school.

No, I don't see that as a negative either, I remember visiting GM Chong Soo Lee's dojang in Montreal and seeing a picture of GM Chong Woo Lee hanging in the dojang gym. In the photo he was wearing the white dogi with the black diamond stitching. It was a very clear photo and I remember thinking if I had a photo that clear of GM Lee wearing that uniform, I might hang it in my dojang too.

 

[mastercole]

Tae Yun Kim.

She use to go by Kyong Ae Fontaine.

I don't know much about what she REALLY does with her students. In the Korean community I have heard that she is admired for being a successful business woman. And I have met her in person and spoke to her about her time as an official for the US Taekwondo Team at either the 1st or 2nd WTF World Taekwondo Championships, and she was very nice and easy to talk to. I think she genuinely loves Taekwondo.

 

[mastercole]

Went to YK Kims seminar in Florida a few years back... got the same feeling from that. Kind of if YK Kim told his students to do ANYTHING they would do their best to do it without giving it a second thought.

I know GM Kim, he is from Jidokwan. He is a smart businessman and motivational speaker. I think his students like what he does for them, but I don't feel that it's cultish in anyway. He gave me a copy of his big book on Taekwondo business, I think he published it in the late 80's. I still have it and it still has plenty of relevant "business minded" material in it.

 

[Gorilla]

I have seen this type of behavior!!!! Never from the truly talented!

 

[mastercole]

A while back I had a guy visit my school who practiced some kind of kungfu, he wanted to watch our athletes train. Since he knew a friend of mine, I agreed. I noticed on the inside of his forearms he had some Chinese character tattoos so I asked him what it said as it did not look familiar to me. He said it was his masters name. Then he lifted up his shirt and showed me a tattoo of his masters face likeness with the name of the school tattooed below it. I asked him if it hurt, he said no and that 10 other students went with the master to get them. I found that really odd.

I don't have any tattoos but if I decided to get one, it would not be a another man's logo, name, dojang or face on my body.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I think that it is natural to respect your instructor and if they have a certain place in the rank hierarchy of your group become conditioned to believe that what they teach you is "Right". I recall that at my first course with General Choi after having trained 18 years with some of the highest ranking Americans, he would say something about a technical standard for a technique and my reaction was "that's wrong". I would then check the text and find him to be 95+% consistent with what it said. You could see how, like the old telephone game some things got changed as they passed from person to person.
For those who are wondering about the other 5%, that discrepancy had to do with refinements, revisions, corrections, and updates to the text, as well as some communications issues. Taking that stuff out of the equation, as I went to addittional courses I found him to be 99+% consistent.

 

[Archtkd]

I think there is truth here. Much of the martial arts, especially at the higher levels, deals with relationships. If you don't have any, or don't like the ones you have, then I guess the only thing left to do is go form your own group, and then isolate your members from interacting with the larger world while at the same time criticizing those who are able to function in that real worth. No one wonder people attack Steven Lopez so much, they can't compete with him, or even understand what it takes to do what he does, so the only thing left is to arm chair quarterback him.

This got me to thinking, I've a number of good taekwondo teachers and I've never heard the most senior ones among them ever criticize another mainstream martial art or tell me Kukkiwon taekwondo is superior in any way to another martial art. I've never heard them make comparisons between Kukkkiwonn style taekwondo and karate or kungfu, with a view of showing that one is superior to the other. None of my elder senior teachers, for example, have ever told me Koreans created taekwondo because they saw serious shortcomings in karate, kungfu or Western boxing.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I think if you are going to alienate yourself and school, then thats fine, but you cant speak negatively of other arts or orgs. Our school has nothing to do with kukkiwon for instance, but you wont hear anyone bagging out on the kukkiwon either, in fact most where I train dont know what the kukkiwon is. I am close friends with some seniors in the club and behind closed doors they will be quite open about their feelings about the kukkiwon, but I am a rare exception, and in front of the students they will never speak ill of kukkiwon or other arts, which I think is the right ting to do. In fact we had a good young, talented kid training with us recently and his goal was to compete and my instructor was the first one to suggest to his parents that he should change to a kukkiwon club if thats his goal. In this day and age of internet and so much readily available information, it would be quite hard to build a "cult like" club by bagging out on opposition because its just so easy for students to do their own research and realise they've been fed lies.

 

[puunui]

This got me to thinking, I've a number of good taekwondo teachers and I've never heard the most senior ones among them ever criticize another mainstream martial art or tell me Kukkiwon taekwondo is superior in any way to another martial art. I've never heard them make comparisons between Kukkkiwonn style taekwondo and karate or kungfu, with a view of showing that one is superior to the other. None of my elder senior teachers, for example, have ever told me Koreans created taekwondo because they saw serious shortcomings in karate, kungfu or Western boxing.

Seniors and the pioneers will sometimes speak ill of certain individuals, but in general not the art itself. Personally, I am glad that there are so many choices today, such that everyone has a much better chance of finding a good fit for themselves, if they choose to stay in the martial arts for a long time.

 

[Gorilla]

Ralph that is the sign of a great instructor Master. If he is not going to provide the right service to a student he refers him/her to a school that is a better fit. The whole idea is to help people achieve their goals. I know a few instructors who are like this. Unfortunately many are not probably about fifty/fifty. We train with multiple instructors and coaches and trainers in multiple arts. This is frowned upon by many but it works very well for us.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Ralph that is the sign of a great instructor Master. If he is not going to provide the right service to a student he refers him/her to a school that is a better fit. The whole idea is to help people achieve their goals. I know a few instructors who are like this. Unfortunately many are not probably about fifty/fifty. We train with multiple instructors and coaches and trainers in multiple arts. This is frowned upon by many but it works very well for us.

Yes he is a great instructor, and I think its important that a school doesnt pretend to be something its not. If you dont provide what your student requires then its your responsibility to point them in the right direction in my opinion

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Originally Posted by puunui Much of the martial arts, especially at the higher levels, deals with relationships. If you don't have any, or don't like the ones you have, then I guess the only thing left to do is go form your own group, and then isolate your members from interacting with the larger world while at the same time criticizing those who are able to function in that real worth.

Hmmm, this is assuming that the goal is to isolate one's members from something. That is a pretty sweeping brush stroke to apply to this topic. It could be that the 'larger world' as you put it is an organization who's goals are not the same as what the school/instructor(s)/students need or want. The fact that they don't need/want to be part of this organization doesn't imply that they are 'isolating' themselves. To go a step further, it is also plausible that the organization has followed a path of conduct that the school/instructor(s)/students don't wish to follow or associate themselves with. This is called free choice. And there is no justifiable reason to criticize them for choosing a different path. Indeed, to do such is to serve the very topic of this thread by simply replacing a 'person' with an 'organization'. Neither path is productive.

 

[miguksaram]

Hmmm, this is assuming that the goal is to isolate one's members from something. That is a pretty sweeping brush stroke to apply to this topic. It could be that the 'larger world' as you put it is an organization who's goals are not the same as what the school/instructor(s)/students need or want. The fact that they don't need/want to be part of this organization doesn't imply that they are 'isolating' themselves. To go a step further, it is also plausible that the organization has followed a path of conduct that the school/instructor(s)/students don't wish to follow or associate themselves with. This is called free choice. And there is no justifiable reason to criticize them for choosing a different path. Indeed, to do such is to serve the very topic of this thread by simply replacing a 'person' with an 'organization'. Neither path is productive.

Then, by the same logic applied, there is no justifiable reason for the school, or person, that broke away to criticize the larger org once they disassociate themselves from it. Nor is there a justifiable reason to continue questioning seniors and the overall logic of the organization, since they are no longer part of that org.

 

[Carol]

Personally, I am glad that there are so many choices today, such that everyone has a much better chance of finding a good fit for themselves, if they choose to stay in the martial arts for a long time.

Absolutely agree.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Then, by the same logic applied, there is no justifiable reason for the school, or person, that broke away to criticize the larger org once they disassociate themselves from it. Nor is there a justifiable reason to continue questioning seniors and the overall logic of the organization, since they are no longer part of that org.

Actually, no. You're comparing apples and oranges Jeremy. If a school/instructor broke away from an organization and began their own art/organization because the first did not represent what they taught or believed in, then someone still within the first organization has no justifiable reason to comment negatively on that school/instructor. Membership in the first organization is not required to teach the art, to receive promotion, to gain continuing education etc. It is a free choice to belong or not to belong. Breaking off from an organization/art and forming a new one is something that has a massive amount of historical precedence in the martial arts. Indeed, many seniors from several types of arts felt it was the highest form of complimenting one's instructor(s) by taking their instruction and adding on to it and surpassing themselves. So someone still within said organization really has no justifiable reason to criticize anyone that has chosen to move on to something else. Many legitimate reasons can exist for just such a move.

Conversely, if the reason for such a break is the result of not wishing to associate with said organization for what many would feel are legitimate reasons, there should be no problem with discussing that with people that are, or may be interested in the reason(s). Commenting negatively about someone expressing their opinion on such a matter is simply an attempt to try and silence them.

 

[miguksaram]

Actually, no. You're comparing apples and oranges Jeremy. If a school/instructor broke away from an organization and began their own art/organization because the first did not represent what they taught or believed in, then someone still within the first organization has no justifiable reason to comment negatively on that school/instructor.

According to who? You making a very specific statement when in fact it subjective. Just because the person broke away does not necessarily mean they are free of blame for any disagreement. For all we know that person wanted to be promoted quicker through the org and when he/she couldn't have it, they broke away so they can just org hop to get the promotions they wanted. With that scenario the org would have every right to criticize....If the person was a part of KKW and then breaks away from them and forms another org. Then person teaches outdated KKW curriculum, the KKW has every right to let people know that the person is not teaching KKW curriculum correctly.

Membership in the first organization is not required to teach the art, to receive promotion, to gain continuing education etc. It is a free choice to belong or not to belong.

Not always the case. There are cases that you have to be part of the org to able to teach the org's curriculum, receive rank in that system.

Breaking off from an organization/art and forming a new one is something that has a massive amount of historical precedence in the martial arts. Indeed, many seniors from several types of arts felt it was the highest form of complimenting one's instructor(s) by taking their instruction and adding on to it and surpassing themselves.

This an apple/orange comparison. If you have the blessing of your senior to make your own, then why would the senior criticize you later? If it is people within that organization that the senior is in charge of then that is a totally different issue.

So someone still within said organization really has no justifiable reason to criticize anyone that has chosen to move on to something else. Many legitimate reasons can exist for just such a move.

Right and many illegitimate reason can exist as well.

Conversely, if the reason for such a break is the result of not wishing to associate with said organization for what many would feel are legitimate reasons, there should be no problem with discussing that with people that are, or may be interested in the reason(s). Commenting negatively about someone expressing their opinion on such a matter is simply an attempt to try and silence them.

So then orgs are not allowed to express their opinion on such a matter but individuals are free to say whatever?

 

[shesulsa]

Look - people (even masters) lie. You can't count on any one version of he-said-she-said to be 100% factual simply from the nature of who we are as humans.

The cult mentality is usually people (usually the ones in charge) who are afforded leniency and special consideration where none other would receive such treatment up to and including (in some cases) legal matters and monetary agreements, investigations and extra leniency with affection, abuse behind the mask of "traditional training," and questionable promotion or demotion. Masters who claim rights to special privileges such as these are often engaging in predatory grooming with various individuals for various purposes.

These traits are self-evident, though by the nature of grooming can be hard to recognize once one is in deep.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Just because the person broke away does not necessarily mean they are free of blame for any disagreement. For all we know that person wanted to be promoted quicker through the org and when he/she couldn't have it, they broke away so they can just org hop to get the promotions they wanted.

Do you have any examples? Do you think any seniors have done this Jeremy?

With that scenario the org would have every right to criticize....If the person was a part of KKW and then breaks away from them and forms another org. Then person teaches outdated KKW curriculum, the KKW has every right to let people know that the person is not teaching KKW curriculum correctly.

But we weren't talking about the KKW or someone teaching an outdated version of their curriculum. We were discussing breaking away from an organization that didn't represent what was being taught or because the school/instructor didn't agree with a particular path the organization was following. And looking at your statement further, what would be the issue with teaching an 'outdated' KKW curriculum? Would that in turn mean it was irrelevant information when it was 'in date'?

Not always the case. There are cases that you have to be part of the org to able to teach the org's curriculum, receive rank in that system.

Really? What system has only one organization that one had to belong to in order to obtain rank?

This an apple/orange comparison. If you have the blessing of your senior to make your own, then why would the senior criticize you later? If it is people within that organization that the senior is in charge of then that is a totally different issue.

You failed to understand my point in perspective and the context in which it was made. The point was that many instructors give their blessings to go beyond what they've done. This is something that should be a common standard within the arts.

Right and many illegitimate reason can exist as well.

Please provide some examples that are within the context of the statements that I've made.

 

[armortkd]

This is a very interesting discussion Master Cole! There's an TKD non-profit organization here in Jacksonville that is based thru a Christian ministry. I helped them out then left because people were ugly to each other, and I left after I found out that their leader/master was manipulating/misleading the group as a whole. I've always thought of them as developing a "culture" but not as a "cult" of sorts. Very interesting, I rethinking this now!

After reading numerous posts on this thread, it's just sad how this happens at various levels with TKD as well as other martial arts. We see students revering their master instructor to the point that: their instructor manipulates/misleads them, being prevented them from growing, sacrifice money and time, etc.

Who else sees this trend?
1. A head master forms their own organization because: falling out with their master/organization because of money, rank issues, power/control.
2. Their students revere their master as the foremost TKD expert.
3. Black belts teach many classes for free or spread their organization by promoting students fast. The master doesn't teach at all or maybe just black belt instructor classes.
4. The master was an Olympic delegate for TKD but isn't a member of the USTU/USAT ;-)

 

[mastercole]

Ralph that is the sign of a great instructor Master. If he is not going to provide the right service to a student he refers him/her to a school that is a better fit. The whole idea is to help people achieve their goals. I know a few instructors who are like this. Unfortunately many are not probably about fifty/fifty. We train with multiple instructors and coaches and trainers in multiple arts. This is frowned upon by many but it works very well for us.

I believe that a good instructor/leader will encourage their *highly skilled* students to train with other teachers/coaches. I do believe it is a mistake to encourage unskilled students to train with other instructors.

I also think that most practitioners have trained in multiple martial arts, at one time or another. For purposes of this thread, from my own personal experience, I also believe that cult of personality instructors are more likely to encourage, or demand their students of all skill ranges, not train with or be a part of large international martial arts organizations, sometime creating their own "systems" or styles from a mish-mash of things they themselves never had any significant training in. I see less cult of personality from instructors who mingle there students freely on an international level in large international organizations.

On another note, someone just sent me this link to this school in Florida. Interesting what comes up when I searched Google for this group. http://www.oomyungdoe-cfl.com/?page_id=16