Students and instructors

[Blindside]

Obliterating the student does not teach them that the technique is crap, it mearly shows them that every time they go out to another class and observe a new technique, when they come back you can, and will, kick their ***. So I dont think everyone follows your logic path.

If I have a choice between saying "don't do this because I said so" or physically demonstrating why this technique isn't a good idea, I usually go with the physical demonstration. Say Student A comes back with a really cool high kick that he picked in another school, one that tends to leave the groin exposed to execute. I may not even need to explain anything, just pop him in the groin every time he tries to pull that off. I then explain to the rest of the class the counter to the technique and then let sparring continue. Odds are that particular kick will go by the wayside rather quickly.

Stealing the technique because, as you say, "If the technique is great you should be stealing it" shows that someone is not an instructor/student in an art but mearly a cockroach that scurrys about getting what they can find.

Uh huh, are you saying TKD (or any art) sprung full-fledged from the mind of a single person without any outside influence? By your definition I think we are all cockroaches, or maybe some of us are cockroaches and others are clones of cockroaches.

As it said, the instructor decides what is taught and not taught, thus the name instructor. If a student wishes to be their own instructor, that is cool also, they can just do it somewhere else. But what makes you think any good instructor would share their most valued pearls of wisdom with a class hopper. HA

I teach everyone who comes in my door, equally to the best of my ability. Do you pick favorites?

Please re-read the post as it said decide, not reject everything.
Therre are several possibilities, not just the one you are jumping to.
It may already be a part of the art

Then there is no issue about a student using this not-really-an-outside technique.

It may be a part of the art that that the student is not ready for

The student already has it, knowledge doesn't go away, whether she is following your normal progression or not. Is your response "don't use this until I say so" or do you fix the issues the student has?

It may be just crap.

No issue then, give your other students a moving dummy to practice on should they decide to retain a crap technique.

I respect my instructor highly, but I don't need to shut off my brain to do so. The simple fact is, my progress is mostly my responsibility as well as his, and I have to make decisions about what and how I study.

As an instructor, I am a guide, not an autocrat.

Lamont

 

[Carol]

Instructors do not go to class to learn from you.
They really don't need to be at class at all.
The only reason they are their is to show students the way.

Yikes. That is not what my instructor has told me. In fact, what he says has been quite the opposite.

 

[Papio]

Geeze DArnold try to remember the tenants of Taekwondo, Blindside is offering an opinion, wither you agree with it of not isn’t an excuse to troll, blindly attack or post defamatory sarcasm.

Self control, courtesy and integrity all shoot to mind when I read your post, not in a good way.

 

[DArnold]

If I have a choice between saying "don't do this because I said so" or physically demonstrating why this technique isn't a good idea, I usually go with the physical demonstration. Say Student A comes back with a really cool high kick that he picked in another school, one that tends to leave the groin exposed to execute. I may not even need to explain anything, just pop him in the groin every time he tries to pull that off. I then explain to the rest of the class the counter to the technique and then let sparring continue. Odds are that particular kick will go by the wayside rather quickly.

As I recall your word were not "physically show them" but obliterate them which has a different conotation, so I would assume, like my cockroach comment, in this exact medium of communication :uhyeah: we both made mistakes. Over time, trust and loyalty with my students I coud go either way, there is no set in stone answer. It depends on the situation on how it is handled. Just as a wild "if", if it were a Black belt I may explaine, if it is a white belt I may just say "don't do this". My black belts over the years have come to respect my judgement in matters and know I would not cross sajajido. Never betray a trust.

Uh huh, are you saying TKD (or any art) sprung full-fledged from the mind of a single person without any outside influence? By your definition I think we are all cockroaches, or maybe some of us are cockroaches and others are clones of cockroaches.

Nope, I was not calling you a cockroache which if you think so I apologize. But those who mearly hop from class to class looking for "cool techniques"

I teach everyone who comes in my door, equally to the best of my ability. Do you pick favorites?

Nope, How do you define equally as every studetn I have ever had was uniques both physically and mentally. One place where a students mental capacity is different is that I do not wast my time on people who visit my class and want to stroke their ego by trying to show me what they know. You want to learn something from me, work out. You want to teach what you know, go start your own class.

Then there is no issue about a student using this not-really-an-outside technique.

Not set in stone. For the if you are choosing to talk about it depends on the technique and the level of the student. Maybe yes, maybe no.

The student already has it, knowledge doesn't go away, whether she is following your normal progression or not. Is your response "don't use this until I say so" or do you fix the issues the student has?

Either way is a possibility depending on the situation. I have never met a student in 28 years that, in your words, ""...has it".

What techniques do you have that you do not have any more to learn about? Sometimes it does need to go away at their pride and joy may be wrong or you might need to learn you ABC's before you start trying to form sentences.
As I said, each situation is different. One example may be I have to earn the students respect (yes, instructors must earn a students respect), so then I may show them why. However you may want to look up the definition of Repsect in the dictionary. It means to defer to someone elses judgement. That is why they call one an instructor and one a student!

No issue then, give your other students a moving dummy to practice on should they decide to retain a crap technique.

No one comes to class to get hurt. Yes, ignorance is its own reward for those who don't listen to the instructor.

I respect my instructor highly, but I don't need to shut off my brain to do so. The simple fact is, my progress is mostly my responsibility as well as his, and I have to make decisions about what and how I study.

If you decide "what and how", then the simple definition is you don't respect your instructor. No one asked you to shut of your brain, just the ego that you know more than your instructor. So if you do know more then why would you work out under them anyway?

As an instructor, I am a guide, not an autocrat.

I am also a guide, but when students decide they wish to guide themselves, or as you say, "decide what and how" then it is a waste of my time as they assume they already know the path.

I wonder how classes would be held if not all students didn't line up togeather because they were to decide what and how?

I wonder how I would react if my 8 year old was in school was to say, "I'm going to dedcide what and how I study."

I wonder how people would react if medical student were to say, "I'm going to dedcide what and how I study."

.....

Lamont

1

 

[DArnold]

Yikes. That is not what my instructor has told me. In fact, what he says has been quite the opposite.

I have never been to a class with my instructor where he has said, ok teach me.

 

[Carol]

I have never been to a class with my instructor where he has said, ok teach me.

Has your instructor ever told you that he (to use your original phrasing) "learned from you" ?

 

[pmn89v]

Has your instructor ever told you that he (to use your original phrasing) "learned from you" ?

l agree. My punong guro have been teaching for years and he told me himself that he is still learning to teach. He said its a constant growth to be a martial artist let alone to be a instructor of a martial art.

 

[Blindside]

As I recall your word were not "physically show them" but obliterate them which has a different conotation, so I would assume, like my cockroach comment, in this exact medium of communication :uhyeah: we both made mistakes. Over time, trust and loyalty with my students I coud go either way, there is no set in stone answer. It depends on the situation on how it is handled. Just as a wild "if", if it were a Black belt I may explaine, if it is a white belt I may just say "don't do this". My black belts over the years have come to respect my judgement in matters and know I would not cross sajajido. Never betray a trust.

Yes that was an overstatement on my part.

No one comes to class to get hurt. Yes, ignorance is its own reward for those who don't listen to the instructor.

We study a martial art, you can't become good at full-contact fighting without doing it. If you have bad technique because you don't practice enough or if you have adopted less than great techniques, then there will be a physical price if you go up against competent opponents. Preferably those lessons will come at the hands of your classmates and instructors rather than someone who is really trying to kill you.

If you decide "what and how", then the simple definition is you don't respect your instructor. No one asked you to shut of your brain, just the ego that you know more than your instructor. So if you do know more then why would you work out under them anyway?

I think that is your definition rather than a "simple definition." One of the few times I have felt I beat my instructor sparring was when I took him down, he made a fundamental grappling mistake of giving up his back, I sunk my hooks in, and I choked him out with a rear naked choke. He isn't a great grappler, he is strong and has good instincts, but he isn't educated about it so he can fall victim to attacks that his instincts don't really address. Again, I respect the heck out of him, but I know that is one of his limitations, I don't go to him for advice on that. If he does make a teaching recommendation on something in that area, I take it with a grain of salt. On the other hand, in standup fighting I have tried to mirror him in almost every way. I don't think it is ego telling me that I know more than him on groundfighting, it is common sense.

I wonder how classes would be held if not all students didn't line up togeather because they were to decide what and how?

Lines on a floor don't make a martial art, they might be traditional for how you teach your art, but they aren't fundamental are they? Could you teach a group with you in the center and a circle around you? Sure, and some arts do it this way.

I wonder how I would react if my 8 year old was in school was to say, "I'm going to dedcide what and how I study."

I wonder how people would react if medical student were to say, "I'm going to dedcide what and how I study."

So you test them, and grade whether they succeed or fail. My position is that the true test of whether somone succeeds or fails in the martial arts is to be found when someone is really trying to hit you. If you cannot avoid getting hit you fail, if you can't put a hurting on someone, you also fail. I won't stifle innovation because it isn't the way I do things, and if I can't find a hole in a student's technique on the sparring floor, who am I to say "don't do this."

Lamont

 

[Kacey]

Has your instructor ever told you that he (to use your original phrasing) "learned from you" ?

Yes... but there is a difference between my instructor learning from me because of something I did/said/demonstrated/etc., and him asking me to teach him as if our roles had been reversed.

In addition to teaching TKD, I also teach middle school. I learn from my students (both types) all the time - but that doesn't mean that I would ask one of my TKD students to teach me how to do a technique any more than I would ask a 7th grade student to teach me how to do math. I will ask my students (both types) to show me how they do something, if they have a different approach than I do; I will ask for people to volunteer their own perspectives - but that is, IMHO, different from asking them to teach me. It may just be a semantic difference - but that's the way I see it.

 

[DArnold]

AHHHH

My position is that the true test of whether somone succeeds or fails in the martial arts is to be found when someone is really trying to hit you. If you cannot avoid getting hit you fail, if you can't put a hurting on someone, you also fail.

So this statement shows that you are a fighter and not a martial artists.
As anyone in the MA's will tell you that fighting is only but a small part of the Martial arts.

And as for the doctor example, just like a medical school, I would not waste my time on someone who wants to "do it their way".

Anyway with this attitude they would never even get in to medical school, so it is a moot point.

 

[Empty Hands]

And as for the doctor example, just like a medical school, I would not waste my time on someone who wants to "do it their way".

Anyway with this attitude they would never even get in to medical school, so it is a moot point.

Clearly you haven't spent much time around doctors...

 

[Bumblebee]

I'm told that all I'm expected of as a student aside from the rules of conduct is to do my best. I expect my instructor to do the same. My instructor is one of my most common sparring partners as well. He's still a young instructor and enters tournaments with me and we push each other a lot. I know some people say it's not good to become friends with your instructor, and I agree with that within the dojang, but outside it's different. We're like brothers.

 

[Blindside]

My position is that the true test of whether somone succeeds or fails in the martial arts is to be found when someone is really trying to hit you. If you cannot avoid getting hit you fail, if you can't put a hurting on someone, you also fail.

So this statement shows that you are a fighter and not a martial artists.
As anyone in the MA's will tell you that fighting is only but a small part of the Martial arts.

If the martial artist can't fight, I think he's lost a vital portion of what makes him "martial," I don't think it is such a small part....

 

[Bumblebee]

Umm okay.

With instructors learning from students, it happens all the time. It's nothing so obvious as "Okay, teach me." A student could do experiment with something and the instructor might say to him/herself "That was a good idea. I'm gonna use that." That's still learning from your student. If you decide to stop learning from other martial artists, why even continue?

Also, if you went to medical school, or even 10th grade health class you'd know something about the hippocratic oath. As a doctor you are required, by law, to do everything in your power to help someone. Medically. So you can't really tell a patient. "You wanna do it your way, fine! Do it your way, you're just a waste of my time." They'll take away your license so fast you wouldn't know what hit you.

As for the fighting being only a small part of Martial Arts, I agree with Blindside. Martial deals with fighting, combat, war. If it's in the name, it can't be a small part of something. That would be like going to a store called "Generic Grocery Store" and all they have is celery and everything else in the store are power tools.

 

[karate-dragon]

Have a problem with the blanket "loyalty" and "never questioning" ones. I am myself extremely loyal. However, it is a sad truth that not all instructors deserve that loyalty and blind trust. Some truely use it as a weapon against the students who follow blindly after spending years drilling into them that it is a requirement. Only if the instructor proves to be worthy of the loyalty, and it is a sad state that few are.Burn me once, shame on you. Burn me twice, shame on me.

 

[a2889]

The biggest thing that I have noticed here is the fact that this is the TAEKWON-DO section of the forum and the people that are arguing with Mr. Arnold and Kacey are from Karate and Kempo. If you have a different opinion as to the relationships between instructor and student, that is your opinion. But, it also shows the subtle differences between your styles and ours. For us, we have learned that TaeKwon-Do is a way of life, not just a means of self-defense. And as an instructor, you see that sink in to new students on a regular basis. Key signs are that the student shows up just to stretch and work on the bag. Yes, some watch the more advanced students in their classes. Of course they will pick up a little here and there from that. However, this gives them something to look forward to as they grow in TaeKwon-Do.
Long story short, this is the way we see our relationships. Instead of trying to influence our art, go to your style forum and argue your ideas of loyalty to them.

 

[Bumblebee]

Well I practice Taekwondo. I'm aware that there are other aspects of Taekwondo and martial arts in general, but Martial does refer to combat. I don't think a person is necessarily a failure if he or she gets hit, because saying that you never get hit is very hard to believe. Unless you're a ghost, doing martial arts, I don't see that happening. Also, its true that if you go to see a doctor and you say you want to do something, a doctor can't say "Okay, do that." Unless of course, he agrees. If he disagrees, he is required to try to talk you out of it or at least let you know that he it's against his advice. Not to mention the fact that saying that you as an instructor never learns anything from your students. That's just ignorant. I don't care what martial art they practice, they make a point.

 

[Blindside]

Long story short, this is the way we see our relationships. Instead of trying to influence our art, go to your style forum and argue your ideas of loyalty to them.

I suspect that TKD doesn't teach one kind of "respect" or "loyalty" and everyone else teach different versions. Kacey's original post was obviously TKDcentric since she based it around General Choi's teachings, but then she opened up with "Do other people have different viewpoints."
I found many things I liked in Kacey's original post, and one or two that I disagreed with, so I brought it up. This is after all, a discussion forum.

I'm not trying to influence your art, the idea that one, ten, or a hundred postings on an internet forum is going to do diddly to the way a martial art is taught is rather amusing. However, I might be able to make one, ten, or a hundred people think about what and why they do the things they do from hearing a different viewpoint, that isn't a bad thing.

Lamont

 

[DArnold]

Well I practice Taekwondo. I'm aware that there are other aspects of Taekwondo and martial arts in general, but Martial does refer to combat. I don't think a person is necessarily a failure if he or she gets hit, because saying that you never get hit is very hard to believe. Unless you're a ghost, doing martial arts, I don't see that happening. Also, its true that if you go to see a doctor and you say you want to do something, a doctor can't say "Okay, do that." Unless of course, he agrees. If he disagrees, he is required to try to talk you out of it or at least let you know that he it's against his advice. Not to mention the fact that saying that you as an instructor never learns anything from your students. That's just ignorant. I don't care what martial art they practice, they make a point.

Yes, martial does refer to combat.
DO also refers to a way of life.

Since combat is against an enemy, what percentage of time compared to your career do you spend in actual combat? How many real, life threatening, altercations do you get into every week? You know, the ones that really prove that your style/instructor/class are the best, true way, real self defense... WHATEVER

You may wish to study some of the ancient phylosophers... The winner is not the man that fights a thousand fights and wins... but the man who has the oppertunity to fight a thousand fights and does not!

As for the doctor analogy, why go? That is the humor in your argument and this so-called logic that some use:

I'm going to go to a doctor and pay money and tell him what I'm going to do! Why because I'm a free thinker. No ones going to tell me what to do. I controll what I learn and when. And yes the doctor will look at the ceiling, smile, and bill you anyway as you are wasting their time also...

Unfortunately today this is known as "Survival of the unfitist"

But Carol and you may wish to go back and read the thread again as I never said an instructor does not learn from students. You both went off in a tangent of misinterpitation.

 

[Bumblebee]

Yes, martial does refer to combat.
DO also refers to a way of life.

Since combat is against an enemy, what percentage of time compared to your career do you spend in actual combat? How many real, life threatening, altercations do you get into every week? You know, the ones that really prove that your style/instructor/class are the best, true way, real self defense... WHATEVER

You may wish to study some of the ancient phylosophers... The winner is not the man that fights a thousand fights and wins... but the man who has the oppertunity to fight a thousand fights and does not!

As for the doctor analogy, why go? That is the humor in your argument and this so-called logic that some use:

I'm going to go to a doctor and pay money and tell him what I'm going to do! Why because I'm a free thinker. No ones going to tell me what to do. I controll what I learn and when. And yes the doctor will look at the ceiling, smile, and bill you anyway as you are wasting their time also...

Unfortunately today this is known as "Survival of the unfitist"

But Carol and you may wish to go back and read the thread again as I never said an instructor does not learn from students. You both went off in a tangent of misinterpitation.

Combat isn't always a life or death situation. I'll give you the Do part of your argument, because I'm agreeing with you on that, but in general you fight in martial arts. I'm not just talking about Taekwondo. You can call it sparring if you want, but if you look at it, it's still a fight. A practice fight, but still a fight.

I'll look into the ancient philosophers, I don't know what that has to do with the debate we're having, but I'll check them out.

Now for the doctor analogy, did I say that I go to a doctor with my opinion and decide that I'm already going to go through with it? I don't recall that. I'll need to re-read what I wrote, but I don't remember writing visiting a doctor with a sprained ankle and say "I'm going to just rest it, ice it, wrap it, and elevate it. That okay with you?" No, because I don't view myself as an idiot. I was stating what is law. I'm saying that if you do go see a doctor and you tell him, "I have a sprained ankle, I'm going to have it amputated." The doctor is required by law to tell you he doesn't think it's a good idea. He can't just walk out on you telling you that you're a waste of his time. He'd lose his license. Not everyone is House.

I have never been to a class with my instructor where he has said, ok teach me.

This is what I was referring to in my arguments about an instructor not learning from a student.