Really bummed about my recent test

[skribs]

To be clear on the time between testing, for 3rd to 4th Dan it is 3 years from the date of your 3 Dan testing?

More than 3 years.

August 2018 to December 2021.

Intermediate tests october 2019, april 2020, october 2020, and planned for april 2021. Thise aren't part of the timer.

 

[skribs]

It sounds to me like you no longer respect your teacher. You seem pretty convinced that you are right and your instructor is wrong. You mentioned that you want to quit after getting your 4th Dan so you can start your own school and teach things your way. It's fine to have your own style of doing things, my style is certainly different from my instructors style, but don't make the mistake of thinking you know it all. Find yourself someone you respect to mentor you. The learning should never stop. Don't forget where you came from. You might have outgrown your current instructor (it happens) but for you to stick with him all the way to 3rd Dan must mean he has brought a lot of benefit to your martial arts journey.

I personally have trained with my instructor for over 30 years. I have my own school and have students and student's students that run their own schools as well. I now have many mentors that I go to to continue my training as my long-time instructor has taught me most of what he knows (although I can still learn from his experience), however he still holds a place of honor in my school for teaching me so much for so many years. He has earned that respect for the years of dedication to my learning and training. I can't imagine throwing him to the curb just because I feel he has nothing left to offer me. Maybe there is more to this?

He's good to his students. Not so much to his staff.

 

[Leviathan]

Hi Skrib,

I haven't practiced TKD but other MAs and I totally understand you're upset. You are a perfectionist and so it is no wonder that you are disappointed with a result that would please many other students. As you are already black belt 3rd dan I take it for granted you know what you are talking about.

I do not consider you are bashing your trainer here: you are just questioning his behavior at the test and some weird reactions he has once in a while (changing his mind about what it considered the right technique and blaming the students for not anticipating this). You are free to think and speak your mind. Bashing would be "he's a piece of ***, doesn't know anything about TKD blabla...", trying to make him bad in pretty much a lot of things. You're miles away from it. But in MAs I find people put the trainer on a throne, calling him "master" / sensei and viewing him as more than what he really is. MA students often consider their trainer as some kind of moral authority who's always right. So no wonder some people here view your questioning as a heresy.

I admire your quest for perfection, that's a great contribution to the art and makes you excel. But that mindset also puts a lot of pressure on you when your - I would say justified - expectation has not been met. That's the case here with the test result.

I would advise you to consider why you are training TKD. Is it to please your instructor? It is virtually impossible to do when the person to please doesn't know what they want or changes their mind about this. Is it for a "degree" / diploma? Well TKD has more to offer than that. I would advise you to consider whether you can still get anything from that trainer. Is he still teaching you anything? If the answer is "no" I would consider looking for another trainer. If you need that 4th dan to be able to teach, can you go to another trainer to get up to that level? If the answer is "no", have you considered changing the TKD organization?

Don't let your happiness and fulfillment in TKD depend on the versatile appraisal of someone else (especially if they may view you as a potential competitor or maybe want to maintain an edge over you). Look and raise beyond the test note, TKD is more than that, you are more than that as well and you can do more than that. Find your way.

Bruce Lee was not such an outstanding martial artist because he got high ranks in a given martial art but because he found his way and excelled at it.

Take care.

 

[skribs]

Hi Skrib,

I haven't practiced TKD but other MAs and I totally understand you're upset. You are a perfectionist and so it is no wonder that you are disappointed with a result that would please many other students. As you are already black belt 3rd dan I take it for granted you know what you are talking about.

I do not consider you are bashing your trainer here: you are just questioning his behavior at the test and some weird reactions he has once in a while (changing his mind about what it considered the right technique and blaming the students for not anticipating this). You are free to think and speak your mind. Bashing would be "he's a piece of ***, doesn't know anything about TKD blabla...", trying to make him bad in pretty much a lot of things. You're miles away from it. But in MAs I find people put the trainer on a throne, calling him "master" / sensei and viewing him as more than what he really is. MA students often consider their trainer as some kind of moral authority who's always right. So no wonder some people here view your questioning as a heresy.

I admire your quest for perfection, that's a great contribution to the art and makes you excel. But that mindset also puts a lot of pressure on you when your - I would say justified - expectation has not been met. That's the case here with the test result.

I would advise you to consider why you are training TKD. Is it to please your instructor? It is virtually impossible to do when the person to please doesn't know what they want or changes their mind about this. Is it for a "degree" / diploma? Well TKD has more to offer than that. I would advise you to consider whether you can still get anything from that trainer. Is he still teaching you anything? If the answer is "no" I would consider looking for another trainer. If you need that 4th dan to be able to teach, can you go to another trainer to get up to that level? If the answer is "no", have you considered changing the TKD organization?

Don't let your happiness and fulfillment in TKD depend on the versatile appraisal of someone else (especially if they may view you as a potential competitor or maybe want to maintain an edge over you). Look and raise beyond the test note, TKD is more than that, you are more than that as well and you can do more than that. Find your way.

Bruce Lee was not such an outstanding martial artist because he got high ranks in a given martial art but because he found his way and excelled at it.

Take care.

He is still teaching me stuff, although a lot of the time what he's teaching me is new combinations to memorize, not necessarily actually new things to learn. I feel like my next big area of growth is either going to be:

1. Picking up a new art (where I am going to hopefully grow explosively during the first year, as opposed to the classes I'm in where I've hit strong diminishing returns)
2. Striking out on my own, where I can be more creative, and where I can learn from my own failures

However, for #2 to happen, I need that rank.

I'm not so much worried about the score myself. The issue is that it is published. At the time I was worried how to handle if the students were to see that I just passed. I'm the type that likes to be honest about everything, but being honest in this case would lead to problems. While I don't agree with the idea that an instructor or Master is put on a pedestal, I do think it has some benefit for kids. The way I saw this going is that either people would not trust me as much as an instructor, or that the only way I would be true to myself if asked is if I were to air some laundry that needn't be aired. There's a difference between anonymous posting on here, and directly complaining to our students (the difference is I'm not undermining him by airing my grievances here).

But that was then. So far, nobody has really talked to me about it except the few I discussed with - those who tested with me, those who graded our testing session, and my parents (who are also black belts at my school).

Speaking of my parents, my Dad thinks that what happened was the other guy who is my rank made the mistakes, and for some reason my Master marked it as wrong on both of our sheets. He thinks the same thing happened to him in a previous test with another student - where he's sure he didn't mess up, but he knows the other guy did. My Mom brought up a test where she and I judged, and we thought all of the students would get Outstanding, and not a single one did. We were both shocked. It was a really low belt level, so I wasn't sure why he felt the need to be super hard on them. It's something that happens every once in a while. Maybe it's just this is the time I got caught in it.

 

[dvcochran]

It's something that happens every once in a while. Maybe it's just this is the time I got caught in it.

Skribs, that is a very sage comment. I am in no way saying it is okay but sxxt happens. Especially when someone is being highly critical of themselves and other elements within the situation. I have followed this thread on MT and the one on reddit. I have not replied on reddit. The best advise you can hear is to evaluate the ability to be an instructor and open a school based on your self ability. From every dynamic. How good of a martial artist are you, regardless of rank? Consider it from the college diploma point of view. How well do you know your field of expertise? How good of a teacher/translator are you, regardless of context? Are you vested and connected within your organization? Do you have a good support vehicle? How good of a business person are you? Do you have a real plan and understand the financials?
This is a list that should be long and ever changing.

About a year ago our Pastor died unexpectedly. An interim Pastor was sent to our church and immediately tried to ingratiate himself. To keep the story short it did not go well and he is no longer at our church. My point is sometimes people want to do something really, really bad. Sometimes they get there, sometimes not. Sometimes they realize Wanting to do something is very different from actually doing it well, or even at all. Wanting to be an instructor is a very good thing. Just know there are a Lot of boxes to check before you can do it successfully. Being an instructor (or anything else) and being a good instructor are two Very different things. Being a school owner/instructor is Much more.

 

[skribs]

@dvcochran These are good questions.

How good of a martial artist are you, regardless of rank?
Technically I would rate myself very high. In terms of athleticism and intangibles (i.e. how fast and accurate I read my opponents and how often I make the right decision in a fight) I would rate myself less high. To be honest, I think I could get better at those more if I were on my own. For one, I wouldn't beholden to this schedule, so I may find more time to work out (which I did for a brief moment when I was on a reduced schedule). On the other hand, I don't think I would get more or less experience in the intangibles in either situation.

Consider it from the college diploma point of view. How well do you know your field of expertise?
This is where I feel is one of my biggest strengths, and why I feel confident in striking out on my own. There's an old joke that goes something like this: "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach." While I don't think that's necessarily the case in martial arts, I think that from an academic perspective, I have a very good handle on the art.

How good of a teacher/translator are you, regardless of context?
Teacher? Incredible. I've been teaching long before I started teaching martial arts. My first job was a tutor for my college. I've taught people competitive techniques in video games before I started back at TKD. I was helping teach some of the stuff even before it became official that I was going to be an instructor. And, despite the fact that none of the other black belts have gotten much attention from my Master in terms of mentoring them to be instructors, he has given me a lot to work with.

Are you vested and connected within your organization?
Vested? Working on it. That's the whole reason for my "chasing" the degree. Connected? Absolutely not. I have a few people online that I talk to (ironically there's another one like you that posts both here and on Reddit, although he favors Reddit). That's something I would need to work on. I would do so either when I take the Master course or when I venture off on my own.

Do you have a good support vehicle?
In what way?

How good of a business person are you? Do you have a real plan and understand the financials?
How good am I at business? Not at all. My experience is all in IT, which has nothing to do with business. I do have a lot of experience with teaching and customer service. However, my Dad has run his own business before.

My plan is to start as a part-time job that I would do after my day job. In that way, I am not wholly dependent on it. If I only ever have a handful of students, then that will be fine. If I do manage to have a student boom, then I would expand (and probably quit my day job). I would start by seeking a partnership which would be relatively low-risk for me (i.e. renting a room in a rec center or working for a rec center). That would be a lot less cost than opening up my own school, which would be a much safer alternative. Working for them may even alleviate some of the burden of onboarding and offboarding customers until I am more grounded in simply running the school.

As it stands, I want to say I'm at least 2 years out (probably 2.5-3 years out) from wanting to open my own school. In the meantime, I've got 5 major things I want to accomplish first (get 4th Dan, qualify for Master, and 3 other things unrelated to Taekwondo). While I am working on designing the curriculum and the culture that I want my school to have, it is still very much in the future.

And I may just decide instead of teaching TKD to go take another art. I've already looked online at some BJJ schools that I like. (Or maybe if I run a school where I only have 10 students or so, I can do both).

 

[dvcochran]

@dvcochran These are good questions.

How good of a martial artist are you, regardless of rank?
Technically I would rate myself very high. In terms of athleticism and intangibles (i.e. how fast and accurate I read my opponents and how often I make the right decision in a fight) I would rate myself less high. To be honest, I think I could get better at those more if I were on my own. For one, I wouldn't beholden to this schedule, so I may find more time to work out (which I did for a brief moment when I was on a reduced schedule). On the other hand, I don't think I would get more or less experience in the intangibles in either situation.

Consider it from the college diploma point of view. How well do you know your field of expertise?
This is where I feel is one of my biggest strengths, and why I feel confident in striking out on my own. There's an old joke that goes something like this: "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach." While I don't think that's necessarily the case in martial arts, I think that from an academic perspective, I have a very good handle on the art.

How good of a teacher/translator are you, regardless of context?
Teacher? Incredible. I've been teaching long before I started teaching martial arts. My first job was a tutor for my college. I've taught people competitive techniques in video games before I started back at TKD. I was helping teach some of the stuff even before it became official that I was going to be an instructor. And, despite the fact that none of the other black belts have gotten much attention from my Master in terms of mentoring them to be instructors, he has given me a lot to work with.

Are you vested and connected within your organization?
Vested? Working on it. That's the whole reason for my "chasing" the degree. Connected? Absolutely not. I have a few people online that I talk to (ironically there's another one like you that posts both here and on Reddit, although he favors Reddit). That's something I would need to work on. I would do so either when I take the Master course or when I venture off on my own.

Do you have a good support vehicle?
In what way?

How good of a business person are you? Do you have a real plan and understand the financials?
How good am I at business? Not at all. My experience is all in IT, which has nothing to do with business. I do have a lot of experience with teaching and customer service. However, my Dad has run his own business before.

My plan is to start as a part-time job that I would do after my day job. In that way, I am not wholly dependent on it. If I only ever have a handful of students, then that will be fine. If I do manage to have a student boom, then I would expand (and probably quit my day job). I would start by seeking a partnership which would be relatively low-risk for me (i.e. renting a room in a rec center or working for a rec center). That would be a lot less cost than opening up my own school, which would be a much safer alternative. Working for them may even alleviate some of the burden of onboarding and offboarding customers until I am more grounded in simply running the school.

As it stands, I want to say I'm at least 2 years out (probably 2.5-3 years out) from wanting to open my own school. In the meantime, I've got 5 major things I want to accomplish first (get 4th Dan, qualify for Master, and 3 other things unrelated to Taekwondo). While I am working on designing the curriculum and the culture that I want my school to have, it is still very much in the future.

And I may just decide instead of teaching TKD to go take another art. I've already looked online at some BJJ schools that I like. (Or maybe if I run a school where I only have 10 students or so, I can do both).

Great post. I am going to chew on it some before I reply. I will say I think are you are very close to a good plan.

 

[skribs]

Great post. I am going to chew on it some before I reply. I will say I think are you are very close to a good plan.

A couple of points to add:

1. We can't work on the sparring intangibles right now, because we can't spar (COVID restrictions).
2. I forgot to answer how good a translator I am. I'm not. Well, it depends on what you mean. I'm pretty good at diagnosing where a student is having difficulty and helping explain things in different ways. But I also only speak English, and learning other languages is not a skill I've ever possessed. There are a couple of students at my school who I wouldn't even say are ESL, because I don't think they speak enough of it to consider it a second language. I've had to teach them mostly by having them copy my movements. I can't really explain anything to them.

 

[dvcochran]

A couple of points to add:

1. We can't work on the sparring intangibles right now, because we can't spar (COVID restrictions).
2. I forgot to answer how good a translator I am. I'm not. Well, it depends on what you mean. I'm pretty good at diagnosing where a student is having difficulty and helping explain things in different ways. But I also only speak English, and learning other languages is not a skill I've ever possessed. There are a couple of students at my school who I wouldn't even say are ESL, because I don't think they speak enough of it to consider it a second language. I've had to teach them mostly by having them copy my movements. I can't really explain anything to them.

1.) Lends itself to the program you plan to promote. In simplest terms using only WT/KKW rules for sparring is going to leave serious gaps for a lot of people because people are just more informed and influence from styles like MMA/BJJ are very real. Take your large school for example. Do all people there compete in WT tournaments or are some there for other reasons?
So you will have to decide if you are going to be a pure WT/KKW school (which I think is fleeting and puts up limits) or be a more comprehensive school. This does not necessarily mean you have to go out and master another very dynamically opposed style (like BJJ for example).Although not a bad thing; but time would be a factor. It does mean you need exposure and experience from other styles and more importantly variation within the TKD style. And yes, this can be in schools who are flying only the KKW banner.
It would be harder on a smaller student scale but we have competition sparring classes that go by WT sparring rules. Looking forward (which I do a Lot) I do not see anything making me believe we well ever see the spike in TKD popularity like we saw in the 80's -90's. Hopefully it will stay in the Olympics for a few/several more cycles but I have set in on the voting process twice and can tell you there are no voters every time.
I strongly believe the best thing a TKD school can do is promote realistic & wholistic sparring in regular class and then, if needed, offer specialty sparring classes.
Another thing to chew on. Many of your sparring comments sound like they come from a position of your own improvement in sparring. That is of course a very good thing however there will become a time when you have to understand your job is to make everyone Better than yourself. If you get a few exceptional new students in your first ever class and that could be from day one as an instructor. Believe me when I tell you that can be a humbling process. But man oh man does it feel good to get a big hug from someone when they get their first medal. You will find that most of the very successful high level coaches were not high level competitors. Funny how that works.

2.) Nail on the head. I meant how well can you express the TKD material in all three aspect, verbally, visually, tactilely? We has Asians and Indians in class often who speak little to no English so the latter two are paramount. One of the worst things an 'instructor' can do is be a mostly verbal teacher.

 

[skribs]

1.) Lends itself to the program you plan to promote. In simplest terms using only WT/KKW rules for sparring is going to leave serious gaps for a lot of people because people are just more informed and influence from styles like MMA/BJJ are very real. Take your large school for example. Do all people there compete in WT tournaments or are some there for other reasons?
So you will have to decide if you are going to be a pure WT/KKW school (which I think is fleeting and puts up limits) or be a more comprehensive school. This does not necessarily mean you have to go out and master another very dynamically opposed style (like BJJ for example).Although not a bad thing; but time would be a factor. It does mean you need exposure and experience from other styles and more importantly variation within the TKD style. And yes, this can be in schools who are flying only the KKW banner.

I definitely plan to include what I know of Hapkido.

I'd like to take BJJ classes. Every school I've looked at has had a "striking" or Muay Thai class as well, which means I could get different perspectives on strikes (especially punches). Like you said, time is a factor.

Of course, with that said, I don't know how much of the BJJ I'd actually include. If I do include groundfighting, it's mainly going to be with the goal of getting back to the feet. Nothing against groundfighting, it's just that there's only so much training time, and since we already train standup, my goal is to escape the ground game. If someone wants to learn groundfighting, I'd expect them to take an art focused on that.

 

[dvcochran]

How good of a martial artist are you, regardless of rank?
Technically I would rate myself very high. In terms of athleticism and intangibles (i.e. how fast and accurate I read my opponents and how often I make the right decision in a fight) I would rate myself less high. To be honest, I think I could get better at those more if I were on my own. For one, I wouldn't beholden to this schedule, so I may find more time to work out (which I did for a brief moment when I was on a reduced schedule). On the other hand, I don't think I would get more or less experience in the intangibles in either situation.

• What is you comparator? Success within your school or your systems tournaments? If so that is a pretty closed circuit, narrow view, and I would say not completely realistic. If you can say you are pushing the envelope and have had high success outside your normal circle and with larger circuits then I would say using you 'skill' as a marketing tool may carry some weight. Just be certain you can put your money where your mouth is.
• The athleticism is a marketable tool if done correctly. Just remember, there has to be a transition from Your athleticism to your students/program in whole.
• Be careful about thinking you will have More time to work on things when you open a school. There should/will be several things that are going to add weight to your schedule. And like nearly everyone I know you are starting the venture as a side gig. Even in the rec room/gym scenario it may demand more time than you anticipate, taking away from your free time to workout. Life does get in the way sometimes. And you have to weigh where you will get your increased/higher training information going forward.

Consider it from the college diploma point of view. How well do you know your field of expertise?
This is where I feel is one of my biggest strengths, and why I feel confident in striking out on my own. There's an old joke that goes something like this: "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach." While I don't think that's necessarily the case in martial arts, I think that from an academic perspective, I have a very good handle on the art.

• That old saying is taken out of context often. And it really has two meanings. The first, and this could be applied as a person who has academic knowledge but no real applied knowledge. Being an EE who went back to college in my 30's to get my two Master's degree I see this pretty clearly. I was a non-typical inverse in my younger years. I had very good applied knowledge but did not have an adequate diploma compared to some of my piers so I went back to school to close that loop, mostly because I really wanted to do it for me but also to get some formalities out of the way and make work easier. I also think it is more prevalent today that a diploma/certificate on the wall does not swing nearly as big a hammer as it used to. The proof is in the results of your students more than yourself.
• The second truth about that saying is that it is an inevitability if you do something long enough or if life deals you a bad hand. I can do only a small fraction physically of what I used to do. It is that simple. If I dwelled on that my life would pretty much suck. Partly from a very active and challenging lifestyle, part from age, but mostly from getting dealt a bad set of cards when I was 38. But, and this is a Huge but, the excitement and satisfaction I get watching someone do well is far better than many of my personal best accomplishments. So saying 'he can't so he teaches' can and is often taken out of context. It has much to do with age and perspective.

How good of a teacher/translator are you, regardless of context?
Teacher? Incredible. I've been teaching long before I started teaching martial arts. My first job was a tutor for my college. I've taught people competitive techniques in video games before I started back at TKD. I was helping teach some of the stuff even before it became official that I was going to be an instructor. And, despite the fact that none of the other black belts have gotten much attention from my Master in terms of mentoring them to be instructors, he has given me a lot to work with.

• I would argue that the classroom is not the best model to use to say 'I am a good MA teacher'. A purely academic or sedentary environment just does not translate well to a physically challenging and dynamically live environment. Your instructor working with you is a good thing. Just make sure you are being mentored and nurtured and not being use as a mule. FWIW, it is good to hear a positive about your instructor.

Are you vested and connected within your organization?
Vested? Working on it. That's the whole reason for my "chasing" the degree. Connected? Absolutely not. I have a few people online that I talk to (ironically there's another one like you that posts both here and on Reddit, although he favors Reddit). That's something I would need to work on. I would do so either when I take the Master course or when I venture off on my own.

• I cannot overstate how important it is to get involved with your organization outside of you school if you plan to open your own place. Hopefully there is a lot of offerings and support for potential school owners. This really needs to be live, face to face interaction. IMHO

Do you have a good support vehicle?
In what way?

• Financially, mentally, culturally, etc...

How good of a business person are you? Do you have a real plan and understand the financials?
How good am I at business? Not at all. My experience is all in IT, which has nothing to do with business. I do have a lot of experience with teaching and customer service. However, my Dad has run his own business before.

• This is huge to me. Honestly, I did not realize I was good at business until sometime after I started teaching and had the opportunity for property ownership. Then things really started to click. Whether you get to ownership or not I strongly encourage you to set down and write out a plan, then change it, then change it again. Milestones are huge. Benchmarks are huge. Ties back to your support vehicle and vestment. Once the plan starts to gel you will likely see the opportunities begin to present themselves. This is seldom a 'me' centric thing.
• NEVER overextend your finances. There is very little change in the profit line. There is a mild change in the curve at the first of the year (New Year resolutions and such) but nothing sustaining. The biggest successes I have seen have been from promoting your better product and from relationships; building them from within your clientele and within your business/association. You should never be afraid to share and promote with other schools. If you are that is saying something negative about your program. Loudly.

My plan is to start as a part-time job that I would do after my day job. In that way, I am not wholly dependent on it. If I only ever have a handful of students, then that will be fine. If I do manage to have a student boom, then I would expand (and probably quit my day job). I would start by seeking a partnership which would be relatively low-risk for me (i.e. renting a room in a rec center or working for a rec center). That would be a lot less cost than opening up my own school, which would be a much safer alternative. Working for them may even alleviate some of the burden of onboarding and offboarding customers until I am more grounded in simply running the school.

• Base skillset aside (MA's), marketing it the number one most important thing to learn. Again, this is Never a 'me' centric thing. I have seen way too much of this in the MA industry.

As it stands, I want to say I'm at least 2 years out (probably 2.5-3 years out) from wanting to open my own school. In the meantime, I've got 5 major things I want to accomplish first (get 4th Dan, qualify for Master, and 3 other things unrelated to Taekwondo). While I am working on designing the curriculum and the culture that I want my school to have, it is still very much in the future.

• So what do you say to someone who has trained for 20+ years but never chased rank? They can have a wealth of information and if they are a great teacher why would someone Not want to learn from them? I am certain I know more successful school owners who started teaching as a color belt or 1st Dan. Few people care about instructor rank early in the journey. I get the sense some of the rank thing is really being shoved down your throat from your school/organization. And this is coming from someone who is pretty anal about rank/structure. At some point you could have students that catch up with you in rank but remember you should be progressing along with them so it would be several years down the road. And that ties back to you have good relationship with you instructor or organization. For you that would also include WT/KKW.

And I may just decide instead of teaching TKD to go take another art. I've already looked online at some BJJ schools that I like. (Or maybe if I run a school where I only have 10 students or so, I can do both).

• You have mentioned BJJ before. If it is of interest to you I strongly suggest you get the bug out before divesting in a school. I did not start Kali until after we had a good compliment of black belts to help share the teaching load and I had two paid BB's on staff. More of life will happen to you sooner or later and you can only spread so thin. Then nothing is enjoyable. I have been there more than once and it is no fun at all.

 

[skribs]

@dvcochran I'll respond to some of your post. Some things I don't have anything to say on, other things I don't have anything productive to say.

Regarding the schedule: right now I'm doing 5 days a week. Our full schedule (pre-COVID) was 6 days a week. My plan if I open a school is 2-3 nights a week, which would leave a lot more time free. If the class size blows up to where I need a full schedule, then I can quit my day job. I'm almost positive I'll find more time than I do now, where I leave for work at 6:30 in the morning, race from work to TKD where I am a few minutes late to the first class, and then get home around 8:30 at night. (It was 9:30 with our pre-COVID schedule).

Regarding the environment: I am actively participating in every class. If I'm leading, I lead the techniques by example. If I'm helping, I will follow along until someone needs help. I still take classes as well. I am definitely active, and more than just academically so. There are lots of good things about my Master. I do want to use a lot of what he teaches. Just I'd like to teach in a different way.

He's also got a few eccentricities. He's paranoid about his curriculum being stolen (which is why I don't post any of it on here). I sent him a message with the link to the KKW Taegeuk videos. He made me delete the message because KKW doesn't want that information getting out. Those videos are easily searchable on YouTube from their official Youtube channel. I just had to nod my head.

Regarding marketing: That's definitely something I've looked into. I know we don't do much marketing at all, and we constantly have new students coming in. Today alone we had around 9-10 new students. Although it could just be that our word-of-mouth game is really strong.

Regarding rank: I started teaching at blue belt. Actually, I started stepping onto the mat and helping out as a green belt, it became official as a blue belt. However, in order to have the combination of:

• The ability to use a reputable name (Kukkiwon)
• The freedom to use a curriculum of my own design, instead of my Master's

In order to that, I need to have the rank and qualification.

If someone has 20+ years and never chased rank, they've still probably got a decent rank. Unless they didn't rank up at all, in which case they wouldn't be progressing along with their students. Even if you say 5 years to black belt, and add 2 extra years for each Dan, they should be well into 3rd Dan after 20 years. Unless of course we're talking a school/art that's really stingy on giving out black belts, like a lot of "old school" TKD schools or a BJJ school, or we're talking a student who took an art which doesn't have belts, or bounced around for 3-4 years at different schools, such as someone in the military or someone who wants a well-rounded skillset.

If someone has that experience and doesn't have the rank, then they can essentially do whatever they want if they open a school. But if they don't have the rank, they may be limited in what organizations they can fall under, or they may be limited in how much freedom they have to teach. For example, if they wanted to teach KKW TKD and they were only a 1st Dan, they would likely have to teach directly under a Master, instead of opening their own school. Either that, or they wouldn't be able to say it's KKW TKD. (Outside of specific circumstances, like if they're the highest ranking person in a reasonable area).

Regarding BJJ: It's definitely something I'm considering. However, I want to be ready to open my own school, so I can make the decision. I don't want to just change arts because I gave up on my plans for this one. I want to do it because I decided that was what I wanted to do. So I want to keep preparing to open my own school, even if I don't do it yet.

 

[dvcochran]

@dvcochran I'll respond to some of your post. Some things I don't have anything to say on, other things I don't have anything productive to say.

Regarding the schedule: right now I'm doing 5 days a week. Our full schedule (pre-COVID) was 6 days a week. My plan if I open a school is 2-3 nights a week, which would leave a lot more time free. If the class size blows up to where I need a full schedule, then I can quit my day job. I'm almost positive I'll find more time than I do now, where I leave for work at 6:30 in the morning, race from work to TKD where I am a few minutes late to the first class, and then get home around 8:30 at night. (It was 9:30 with our pre-COVID schedule).

***I hope you are being fairly compensated. And even that can change the relationship dynamic between teacher/student if not careful. I get it with the size of your school but it does go against the traditional grain so when I did it we had some very long conversations and they were seasoned adults. I am not saying you are not but warning against using the relationship as a tool to merit special favor.

Regarding the environment: I am actively participating in every class. If I'm leading, I lead the techniques by example. If I'm helping, I will follow along until someone needs help. I still take classes as well. I am definitely active, and more than just academically so. There are lots of good things about my Master. I do want to use a lot of what he teaches. Just I'd like to teach in a different way.

***I would call that standard teaching fare. Certainly nothing wrong with having your own ideas. Often times it has everything to do with how they are presented.

He's also got a few eccentricities. He's paranoid about his curriculum being stolen (which is why I don't post any of it on here). I sent him a message with the link to the KKW Taegeuk videos. He made me delete the message because KKW doesn't want that information getting out. Those videos are easily searchable on YouTube from their official Youtube channel. I just had to nod my head.

***I don't know what to say to this one. Our GM is older and acknowledges and embraces the current ease of finding information. He uses it as a tool really; pointing out the good and bad in things he sees online. Being on the KKW steering committee he is pretty open about bashing certain things about the Taegueks.
I would say just nodding your head is a good approach.

Regarding marketing: That's definitely something I've looked into. I know we don't do much marketing at all, and we constantly have new students coming in. Today alone we had around 9-10 new students. Although it could just be that our word-of-mouth game is really strong.

***Just curious, if you look in your local phone book how many MA schools do you see? In other words, how much local competition do you have? If not a lot, being an established school does a Lot of marketing for you. And there is a strength in numbers quotient which you mentioned. If you have enough mouth's then word of mouth is extremely powerful.
When students sign paperwork to enroll do they identify how they found you? Always good information to let you know what does and does not work in your marketing strategy.

Regarding rank: I started teaching at blue belt. Actually, I started stepping onto the mat and helping out as a green belt, it became official as a blue belt. However, in order to have the combination of:

• The ability to use a reputable name (Kukkiwon)
• The freedom to use a curriculum of my own design, instead of my Master's

In order to that, I need to have the rank and qualification.

***But you really don't if you truly have the knowledge.

If someone has 20+ years and never chased rank, they've still probably got a decent rank. Unless they didn't rank up at all, in which case they wouldn't be progressing along with their students. Even if you say 5 years to black belt, and add 2 extra years for each Dan, they should be well into 3rd Dan after 20 years. Unless of course we're talking a school/art that's really stingy on giving out black belts, like a lot of "old school" TKD schools or a BJJ school, or we're talking a student who took an art which doesn't have belts, or bounced around for 3-4 years at different schools, such as someone in the military or someone who wants a well-rounded skillset.

***20 years was just a number I chose. I guess I should have said 40 to make the point better. Forget about you idea of time between belts. Forget belts for a minute. If someone has diligently worked out for 20-30-40 years they have a Ton of knowledge. There are people out there who wear an unidentifiable black belt because they are not worried about a number or rank. They are not worried about KKW or ITF or ATA or Tiger Rock or whatever. That does not diminish their skill or knowledge. I am just saying everyone needs to make certain their skill & knowledge surpasses their rank, perceived or otherwise. This is where made up, perceived standards by strangers are not met and where ranks (numbers) can be more liability than asset. I promise this gets easier to understand with time.

If someone has that experience and doesn't have the rank, then they can essentially do whatever they want if they open a school. But if they don't have the rank, they may be limited in what organizations they can fall under, or they may be limited in how much freedom they have to teach. For example, if they wanted to teach KKW TKD and they were only a 1st Dan, they would likely have to teach directly under a Master, instead of opening their own school. Either that, or they wouldn't be able to say it's KKW TKD. (Outside of specific circumstances, like if they're the highest ranking person in a reasonable area).

***Especially with the ease of information it is easier to build and follow a curriculum, whether you make up your own or want to follow an established standard like KKW, ITF, etc... Like it or not certification and belting does not carry as much weight as it used to. Popular styles like BJJ (where belting takes a Long time) and MMA where it does not exist has extinguished some of the 'fire' for belting. Kids would still be the exception here.
So anyone can literally go to Youtube, 'learn' the Taegueks and start teaching them. Are they teaching them well and correct? Who knows. This is part of the ensuing battle teachers and schools must fight.

Regarding BJJ: It's definitely something I'm considering. However, I want to be ready to open my own school, so I can make the decision. I don't want to just change arts because I gave up on my plans for this one. I want to do it because I decided that was what I wanted to do. So I want to keep preparing to open my own school, even if I don't do it yet.

***I hope we continue this conversation.

 

[skribs]

@dvcochran

Compensation: Yes...well, I decided to volunteer my time during COVID, but for the several years between black belt and COVID, yes.

Videos: It was especially weird, because he's told people to search for videos of Taegeuks on Youtube before. This is one area where I do want to do things different. I think that providing students with materials they can use at home will make it more likely for them to practice at home.

Other Schools: I know of a few that are fairly well-established in the area. There's also a few Karate schools and other martial arts as well.

***But you really don't if you truly have the knowledge.

So KKW would let me run a school right now?

***20 years was just a number I chose. I guess I should have said 40 to make the point better. Forget about you idea of time between belts. Forget belts for a minute. If someone has diligently worked out for 20-30-40 years they have a Ton of knowledge. There are people out there who wear an unidentifiable black belt because they are not worried about a number or rank. They are not worried about KKW or ITF or ATA or Tiger Rock or whatever. That does not diminish their skill or knowledge. I am just saying everyone needs to make certain their skill & knowledge surpasses their rank, perceived or otherwise. This is where made up, perceived standards by strangers are not met and where ranks (numbers) can be more liability than asset. I promise this gets easier to understand with time.

Especially with the ease of information it is easier to build and follow a curriculum, whether you make up your own or want to follow an established standard like KKW, ITF, etc... Like it or not certification and belting does not carry as much weight as it used to. Popular styles like BJJ (where belting takes a Long time) and MMA where it does not exist has extinguished some of the 'fire' for belting. Kids would still be the exception here.
So anyone can literally go to Youtube, 'learn' the Taegueks and start teaching them. Are they teaching them well and correct? Who knows. This is part of the ensuing battle teachers and schools must fight.

My Mom told me a story of two guys she used to work with. One guy had all the experience and knowledge. The other guy had the college degree. The other guy was the guy who was the manager, with more authority, more responsibility, and a much better paycheck. But the one guy was the guy who actually fixed things.

Similarly, when I apply for jobs within my profession, I need to have specific certifications. Some jobs are even ridiculous, that if you have better certifications, but don't have the one they want, then you aren't qualified. For example, Security+ is a fairly easy certification to get (compared to others in the field). If a job calls for Security+ and you don't have it, then you can't get the job - even if you have the required experience. In some cases, even if you have the CISSP (which is much harder to get), you can be disqualified because you don't have Security+.

However, that's just what gets you in the door. I still had to do an interview. During the interview, they didn't ask "what certs do you have?" (Maybe they did, but it was one question among many). Instead, they asked things about my personality, my work style, my experience, and asked "how would you handle this type of a situation?" I then had a probationary period, where I was a little bit more scrutinized to make sure I was working hard and well for the company.

Paper qualifications are just as important as your skills and knowledge, because it gives legitimacy to your claims (especially in today's age where you can research anyone online). In arts that don't have rank, they may still have certificates, fighting records, etc. That's not to devalue the skill, experience, and teaching ability. Both are important. I wouldn't have my job without my ability to manage systems, and I wouldn't have my job without my paper certifications. I wouldn't expect to run a school without both the skill and the qualifications, either.

Because as you said - ease of information. If anyone can go to my school and see I'm only a 1st Dan or 2nd Dan, and then ask online, someone might say "a 1st Dan shouldn't be running a school", and that right there delegitimizes my school. That other person has no way of knowing my skill or abilities. They only know that on paper, I'm not qualified.

 

[andyjeffries]

He's also got a few eccentricities. He's paranoid about his curriculum being stolen (which is why I don't post any of it on here). I sent him a message with the link to the KKW Taegeuk videos. He made me delete the message because KKW doesn't want that information getting out. Those videos are easily searchable on YouTube from their official Youtube channel. I just had to nod my head.

What the heck?! Kukkiwon's whole job and ethos is to share the information! That's why they produced the new video series they have. It's why they hold a very VERY reasonably priced master instructor course every year. Their main job has been to specify correct Taekwondo, set standards for judging it (and processing certificates for those that have done so) and share that specification.

 

[andyjeffries]

So KKW would let me run a school right now?

Kukkiwon doesn't care who runs schools. They only care that people promoting others to coloured belts are 4th Dan or above, and that those promoting people to 1st Dan or above are Kukkiwon 4th Dan or above AND a certified Kukkiwon master.

In the UK it's common for 1st/2nd Dans to run schools, they just need to bring a master in for testing.

 

[dvcochran]

In the UK it's common for 1st/2nd Dans to run schools, they just need to bring a master in for testing.

This is exactly my point. There are work arounds that are quite common these days.

 

[skribs]

What the heck?! Kukkiwon's whole job and ethos is to share the information! That's why they produced the new video series they have. It's why they hold a very VERY reasonably priced master instructor course every year. Their main job has been to specify correct Taekwondo, set standards for judging it (and processing certificates for those that have done so) and share that specification.

Like I said, a few eccentricities. I even told him that I found these posted on a couple of different sites.

Kukkiwon doesn't care who runs schools. They only care that people promoting others to coloured belts are 4th Dan or above, and that those promoting people to 1st Dan or above are Kukkiwon 4th Dan or above AND a certified Kukkiwon master.

In the UK it's common for 1st/2nd Dans to run schools, they just need to bring a master in for testing.

I don't really see that happening here. For one, they would be my competition. For another, they would be my competition.

On the one hand, if students are shopping around and my credentials are significantly less, I'm less marketable.

On the other hand, I don't see why a business owner would want to help me, when my customers could potentially be their customers. At the very least, I don't think my Master would promote anyone who didn't learn his curriculum, his way; because he doesn't want his name on something not done his way.

 

[Jaeimseu]

Like I said, a few eccentricities. I even told him that I found these posted on a couple of different sites.



I don't really see that happening here. For one, they would be my competition. For another, they would be my competition.

On the one hand, if students are shopping around and my credentials are significantly less, I'm less marketable.

On the other hand, I don't see why a business owner would want to help me, when my customers could potentially be their customers. At the very least, I don't think my Master would promote anyone who didn't learn his curriculum, his way; because he doesn't want his name on something not done his way.

Unless you’re running a fight gym, your credentials aren’t really all that important most of the time. Far more important is what you can do to benefit the student. When I sit down to enroll a student, my rank comes up maybe 1% of the time. I do mention my years of experience and my education credentials.

Like Andy said, if you plan to certify black belts through Kukkiwon, you need a certified master to help with that. Plenty of school owners just issue school certificates and do fine.

If and when you first start out, you’ll almost certainly need to market aggressively to be successful, but you won’t be marketing your school based on your rank.

I’m not saying you shouldn’t bother with credentials, just that those credentials will be far more important to you than to the vast majority of your potential students.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[andyjeffries]

On the other hand, I don't see why a business owner would want to help me, when my customers could potentially be their customers.

I'm lucky that I run my school as a non-profit ethos and have a very "if students want to learn from me, great, if they want to go elsewhere, that's fine too" sort of attitude. However, as I understand most US schools aren't that way, let me use my business experience to explain why it may still work.

If Master X in another area agrees to help you with testing:

a) he's in another area so not really your competition for students
b) he could charge some fee for the testing every time
c) he forms a relationship with another school leading to:
1) more potential customers for any products he makes
2) more potential customers for any seminars he hosts

As long as you're not asking another master that is just a few miles away, there are benefits aside from the potential competition.

At the very least, I don't think my Master would promote anyone who didn't learn his curriculum, his way; because he doesn't want his name on something not done his way.

Your master is a bit of an unusual case though (from what you've said above). I teach Kukkiwon standard Taekwondo. I don't generally offer my examining services to other clubs (mainly because I have very strict standards and don't want them to feel bad if their students don't reach them), but if I knew the instructor/club/students (i.e. as per point 'c' above had formed some relationship with the school), as long as they met the criteria and standards I'd happily test them.