How do you test techniques at your dojang?

[skribs]

I found a video that shows our hand position pretty well. He is demonstrating "our katate tori" in combination. But you can see how he grips uke's hand, leaving the wrist clear. (10 seconds to 11 seconds) You can also see how he is pulling with the pinky and pushing with the thumb. (23-25 seconds)

Is this what you mean, at the end of the combination starting at 2:23? (they are putting in a lot of extra, looks cool stuff, as this is a "kata contest." some of it is over the top fluff...)

No, that's not it.

 

[skribs]

I found a video that shows our hand position pretty well. He is demonstrating "our katate tori" in combination. But you can see how he grips uke's hand, leaving the wrist clear. (10 seconds to 11 seconds) You can also see how he is pulling with the pinky and pushing with the thumb. (23-25 seconds)

Is this what you mean, at the end of the combination starting at 2:23? (they are putting in a lot of extra, looks cool stuff, as this is a "kata contest." some of it is over the top fluff...)

I apologize for the horrendous pictures. I couldn't find the techniques I'm describing, so I made my own. At home, alone, with a dummy I made involving a hoodie, a pillow, and a few other things. But I hope it at least conveys what I'm talking about.

This is what I would try to do first in most cases with the V-Lock. Shin into the armpit, pull back until the elbow hyperextends against my shin. This is best if their arm is more straight than bent when they land.

This is my variant if the arm is flexed. I will go above the elbow and torque the shoulder.

This is if their arm is very bent, especially if I'm closer to their head. It's a bad picture, because I'd have both arms snaked in there, and I'd pull on the wrist to pop the wrist.

Like I said, horrible pictures, but just a quick and dirty way for me to show what I mean.

 

[dvcochran]

I think I understand what I am seeing. The only thing I noticed different is the use of the shin to 'trap' the shoulder. In the prone position, we teach putting your foot in the 'web' of the armpit for more downward control/force if necessary. On the way down you may have to use the shin (technique dependent) but I like to have as much body control as possible.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It is part of our natural grip that you touched on I feel. By using the outer three finger (pinky, ring, bird) we have a stronger grip naturally. That is how we learned to grip a blade or baton in Kali.
I think we are saying the same thing when you say pinky edge and I say blade of the hand.

Yes, but I don't think it's a "natural" grip to use for a lot of folks. I'm still amused at how often I see people doing quite the opposite (leaving pinky out to make room for index) in drills, exercises, and everyday practices. I actually spend a bit of time, from time to time, examining which grips benefit more from the index than the pinky. There are few, but it seems to be the default adjustment.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I apologize for the horrendous pictures. I couldn't find the techniques I'm describing, so I made my own. At home, alone, with a dummy I made involving a hoodie, a pillow, and a few other things. But I hope it at least conveys what I'm talking about.

This is what I would try to do first in most cases with the V-Lock. Shin into the armpit, pull back until the elbow hyperextends against my shin. This is best if their arm is more straight than bent when they land.

This is my variant if the arm is flexed. I will go above the elbow and torque the shoulder.

This is if their arm is very bent, especially if I'm closer to their head. It's a bad picture, because I'd have both arms snaked in there, and I'd pull on the wrist to pop the wrist.

Like I said, horrible pictures, but just a quick and dirty way for me to show what I mean.

If you get a chance to take pictures with a human, I'd like to see them. I'm curious about some fine points that won't show up without the actual joints present.

 

[skribs]

If you get a chance to take pictures with a human, I'd like to see them. I'm curious about some fine points that won't show up without the actual joints present.

Does it at least show what I'm talking about?

 

[dvcochran]

Yes, but I don't think it's a "natural" grip to use for a lot of folks. I'm still amused at how often I see people doing quite the opposite (leaving pinky out to make room for index) in drills, exercises, and everyday practices. I actually spend a bit of time, from time to time, examining which grips benefit more from the index than the pinky. There are few, but it seems to be the default adjustment.

I can see that. Probably years of my gripping in that manner. The index finger and thumb are more tactile in use.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Does it at least show what I'm talking about?

The bent-arm one isn't clear to me, but that may be more because of the terminology. What I think I see doesn't match what I think I'm reading. The other I knew without the pictures, and the picture agrees with what I'd read.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I can see that. Probably years of my gripping in that manner. The index finger and thumb are more tactile in use.

I also think jars may have something to do with it. When opening a jar lid, the index finger is more important (you can "use" the pinky while it's not on the lid, so you don't lose the strength in the other fingers). That may form a habit for folks that's hard to change.

 

[oftheherd1]

I think we are in agreement here, but just wanted to touch a few points. That turnover will work, purely by mechanical advantage. The bend in the elbow give tori a really good lever to effect the shoulder joint, causing the turn to start, which then changes into an arm bar. The wrist lock is great for pain compliance. If using the grip that we have in Danzan Ryu, breaking the wrist during the turnover or after is still an option. However, there is also another pressure point along the humorous that hand on the elbow can find. If you get the placement right, it can really light people up. This is the one I thought that oftheherd1 was asking about. Whats nice about this turnover, is that you end up with a wrist lock, arm bar and pressure point just above the elbow, all at the same time... it's great for everyone but uke.

Yes on what you say except I would say the elbow pressure point is more at the upper end of the elbow and properly applied is excruciating. It feels like someone has stuck a knife in at that point. I wasn't usually getting it right on practice opponents so I asked my GM exactly how it was to be done. He applied it and asked if I got it. Yes Sir! Without warning he applied it again and asked the same question and I gave the same answer. That repeated once more. I was very careful what and how I asked my GM after that. I learned lots of things from my GM.

As to the muscle strike, we do that in the Hapkido I learned, but not on that technique. Done properly it is very painful and therefor distracting and disabling in the middle of another body point attack. That said, it is not a thing we do much.

There are many variations that can be used for one reason or another. We would usually use all four fingers as well. We might grab the opponent's hand with both of ours or grab the wrist with the opposite hand as the opponent's hand we are grabbing, the grab or push on the back of the opponent's hand with the other and use a quick push pull against the wrist and back of the hand.