How do you test techniques at your dojang?

[Gerry Seymour]

I think I'll either end up with no students or more students than I want. Ideally I'd have maybe 20-30 students spread between 2 classes. I'll probably end up either with somewhere around 2 students, or 60+. I don't think it will be in between.

That's about my ideal, too. I like classes of 15-20 students.

 

[dvcochran]

What about class arrangement?
Will you segregate by age and/or rank?
Have you created/started a written curriculum?
Home/garage school or retail building?
Style/lineage?
Will you stay associated/franchise?
What/where will the startup capital come from?
How/who/when will belt testing be performed?
What credits/advantages do you have to promote your business venture?
What/how/why will you supplement income?

This list goes on and on. They are not specific to your question but much bigger in perspective. IMHO. The old saying of "looking at things from 10,000 feet" has a lot of merit.

 

[skribs]

1. What about class arrangement?
2. Will you segregate by age and/or rank?
3. Have you created/started a written curriculum?
4. Home/garage school or retail building?
5. Style/lineage?
6. Will you stay associated/franchise?
7. What/where will the startup capital come from?
8. How/who/when will belt testing be performed?
9. What credits/advantages do you have to promote your business venture?
10. What/how/why will you supplement income?

Good things to think about, but also not super relevant to the question.

1. First I'll need to see how many people are going to join when I open up
2. Most likely.
3. Started on it, but part of it is a Catch 22 that if I'm not sure what's being tested, then I'm not sure what goes into the curriculum.
4. At this point, it would have to be retail. I don't have a garage, and my home is barely able to handle my own training.
5. Kukkiwon with heavy influence from my Master's teachings
6. I think I would stay associated with KKW. Not sure if the school would be associated with my Master when I make my own curriculum. I have a feeling I will need to be on my own then.
7. I have a lot of time to figure that out.
8. Timing would depend on the number of students, the more students I have the more frequent and regular testing would be. The how is what I'm doing here.
9. Can you explain the question?
10. At this point my day job would be my priority. That's why I'd only want to have a couple of classes instead of a full load like my school has right now.

 

[wab25]

This is something I'm considering. Another one of my hobbies is gaming (both board games and video games) and one tactic they use to simplify directions is key words. For example, in the game Dominion, any time something says "+1 Buy", that term has been defined in the rules, which makes it easier than putting "you can buy 1 additional card on your buy phase" onto the card.

My primary art is Danzan Ryu Jujitsu. This is a Japanese based system of jujitsu. However, Okazaki (the founder of the art) chose to use different, non-traditional names. For most Japanese based systems, Kote Gaeshi looks something like this:

If you ask a DZR guy, if we study Kote Gaeshi, he will say yes. But when he demonstrates it, it will look something like this: (Kote Gaeshi is done twice, once by each person, starting at 46 seconds in)

Note, they are completely different things. This leads to a little confusion when training with other Japanese systems, for obvious reasons. I bring this up, as you seem to trying to come up with some kind of key word, coding system for the techniques. My suggestion would be to use the TKD Korean terms. That way your TKD students will be compatible with other schools.

At first, it may sound like a way to keep your students from drifting over to other schools. But, it also keep other TKD students from drifting over to your school. Further, when TKD Grand Master WhatsHisFace comes out to teach a seminar to your students, you have to spend half the time translating your terms into his terms.

Using the common TKD terms for the techniques would be a better approach in the long run. Then you can call out the Korean term and they perform it. You can add modifiers, "left side forward, step back, TKD term," "left side forward, slide step, TKD term."

 

[skribs]

My primary art is Danzan Ryu Jujitsu. This is a Japanese based system of jujitsu. However, Okazaki (the founder of the art) chose to use different, non-traditional names. For most Japanese based systems, Kote Gaeshi looks something like this:

If you ask a DZR guy, if we study Kote Gaeshi, he will say yes. But when he demonstrates it, it will look something like this: (Kote Gaeshi is done twice, once by each person, starting at 46 seconds in)

Note, they are completely different things. This leads to a little confusion when training with other Japanese systems, for obvious reasons. I bring this up, as you seem to trying to come up with some kind of key word, coding system for the techniques. My suggestion would be to use the TKD Korean terms. That way your TKD students will be compatible with other schools.

At first, it may sound like a way to keep your students from drifting over to other schools. But, it also keep other TKD students from drifting over to your school. Further, when TKD Grand Master WhatsHisFace comes out to teach a seminar to your students, you have to spend half the time translating your terms into his terms.

Using the common TKD terms for the techniques would be a better approach in the long run. Then you can call out the Korean term and they perform it. You can add modifiers, "left side forward, step back, TKD term," "left side forward, slide step, TKD term."

For one thing, most TKD schools don't actually use the Korean words. Some do, but most use the native language of the country it's being taught in. It's something that I believe is a suggestion by KKW, to make TKD more accessible to students around the world. I think using the source language is most common in Japanese arts, hence my post I made a few months ago: Why do Japanese arts use the Japanese language?

(And the simple fact that I don't know the Korean terms for all of the details I want to look at).

For another, there is no standardized terminology for Taekwondo. At different schools, the following may be used to refer to the same kick:

• Tornado Kick
• 360 Roundhouse Kick
• 360 Turning Kick
• Spinning Roundhouse Kick
• Turning Roundhouse Kick

And like you said, the same word can mean different things in different Japanese schools.

 

[dvcochran]

Good things to think about, but also not super relevant to the question.

1. First I'll need to see how many people are going to join when I open up
2. Most likely.
3. Started on it, but part of it is a Catch 22 that if I'm not sure what's being tested, then I'm not sure what goes into the curriculum.
4. At this point, it would have to be retail. I don't have a garage, and my home is barely able to handle my own training.
5. Kukkiwon with heavy influence from my Master's teachings
6. I think I would stay associated with KKW. Not sure if the school would be associated with my Master when I make my own curriculum. I have a feeling I will need to be on my own then.
7. I have a lot of time to figure that out.
8. Timing would depend on the number of students, the more students I have the more frequent and regular testing would be. The how is what I'm doing here.
9. Can you explain the question?
10. At this point my day job would be my priority. That's why I'd only want to have a couple of classes instead of a full load like my school has right now.

#9.
Why would someone workout with you rather than the school down the street? What can you 'hang your hat on'? What separates you from the thousands of other KKW schools? How do you sell yourself? Credentials/accomplishments?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My primary art is Danzan Ryu Jujitsu. This is a Japanese based system of jujitsu. However, Okazaki (the founder of the art) chose to use different, non-traditional names. For most Japanese based systems, Kote Gaeshi looks something like this:

If you ask a DZR guy, if we study Kote Gaeshi, he will say yes. But when he demonstrates it, it will look something like this: (Kote Gaeshi is done twice, once by each person, starting at 46 seconds in)

Note, they are completely different things. This leads to a little confusion when training with other Japanese systems, for obvious reasons. I bring this up, as you seem to trying to come up with some kind of key word, coding system for the techniques. My suggestion would be to use the TKD Korean terms. That way your TKD students will be compatible with other schools.

At first, it may sound like a way to keep your students from drifting over to other schools. But, it also keep other TKD students from drifting over to your school. Further, when TKD Grand Master WhatsHisFace comes out to teach a seminar to your students, you have to spend half the time translating your terms into his terms.

Using the common TKD terms for the techniques would be a better approach in the long run. Then you can call out the Korean term and they perform it. You can add modifiers, "left side forward, step back, TKD term," "left side forward, slide step, TKD term."

Good points. Also, using the terms you learned by means it’s easier to stay consistent in the early years.

 

[skribs]

#9.
Why would someone workout with you rather than the school down the street? What can you 'hang your hat on'? What separates you from the thousands of other KKW schools? How do you sell yourself? Credentials/accomplishments?

Ah, gotcha. Great question.

I'm still working on a lot of that. Both how to answer the question, and on gaining the credentials that will help. Right now I'm a 3rd degree black belt in TKD and a red belt in HKD. By the time I open my own school, I will be 5th degree in TKD and somewhere between 3rd and 5th degree in HKD. I also don't know if I would just stick with those, or if I want to take some other martial arts on the way in (BJJ, boxing, and Wing Chun really catch my eye).

I imagine some students would follow me to my new school. I think the number of students who prefer my Master to me is much higher than the number that prefer me to my Master, but I also know there are at least a few that prefer me. I know when my Master opened his own dojang, a lot of students followed him from his old school. I don't think he advertises much, but relies mostly on word-of-mouth and people googling "martial arts near me", and we have never been starved for students in the time I've been there. I don't think I'd have as much of a draw as he does (because he's got much better credentials than I'll ever have), but I imagine I'll be able to fill classes.

 

[Earl Weiss]

#9.
What separates you from the thousands of other KKW schools? How do you sell yourself? Credentials/accomplishments?

IMO you don't have to. For the most part the general public is clueless. They go to the most convenient place based upon location and class availability. If there is a choice they will pick what they think is cheapest and not find out about up charges and extras until after they are involved. They walk in the door and see a bunch of people dancing in their pajamas and, certificates on the wall, trophies in the window and are impressed. The other 1% may be looking for you because of their prior experience or recommendations from people who know you or what you teach vis a vis the system they are looking for.

 

[Jaeimseu]

There’s a lot going on here.

IMO, when determining your curriculum, start with the “end” in mind. What do you want a 1st dan to look like? What do you want them to know? That should inform your decision on what to include in your curriculum.

Once you know what you need to include, you have to plan on how you will deliver your curriculum. How will you schedule your classes? Will you use a set curriculum for each rank? Will you use a rotating curriculum? Some combination of each?

As for testing, I prefer to have a specific cycle so that everyone knows when the next opportunity to test is approaching. For us, it’s an 8 week cycle. This cycle gives students and instructors a sense of urgency and gives direction to daily class planning, in my opinion.

When it comes to testing individual skills, I find that being consistent in terminology and approach in class eliminates most confusion at the test. If I’m going to test combinations, for example, students have several cues that they are familiar with from class: names of techniques, name of footwork (we use a number system for this so no explanation is needed), and the way the targets are held. Very little direction is needed if consistency is maintained.


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[dvcochran]

IMO you don't have to. For the most part the general public is clueless. They go to the most convenient place based upon location and class availability. If there is a choice they will pick what they think is cheapest and not find out about up charges and extras until after they are involved. They walk in the door and see a bunch of people dancing in their pajamas and, certificates on the wall, trophies in the window and are impressed. The other 1% may be looking for you because of their prior experience or recommendations from people who know you or what you teach vis a vis the system they are looking for.

By in large, I agree. The people you describe are typical of the majority of people who walk in the doors. They are also, by in large, the people who walk right back out or shortly thereafter. That said, the population at-large is more informed and have at least some idea of how they want to at least start class. I do not intend it to sound inappropriate but there is a 'sell factor' to consider. I like looking at the 'whole pie' when I think if this.
I am not sure if you saw post #43. The post was a rather comprehensive response to the OP. IMHO, #9 is lower in order of importance for the average person (& kids) coming in. More so, it is a component part of the whole product.
I am not implying a new instructor/school has to have some incredible fighter record to make a go of it. There are several other things a person can present as credible that have marketing/student value. Community service, specialty programs, professional organization services and affiliation, LEO/EMS/DHS and school system affiliation, etc... It is an ever growing list.
The Martial Art model is evolving. I try very hard Not the change the original teachings and concepts but possibly the way they are presented. I am always looking to see others ideas.

Back to your post; in regards to the 'average Joe' who walks in with little to zero forethought, what do you see as average %'s for signup and retainage? Is there a 'wow' factor you use/have when someone comes in to talk about classes?

 

[advfhorn]

Goju Ryu dojo:
Our CI (Renshi) picks a night (or several nights at higher belts) and you will feel him "watching you". I have seen him test the skills in different ways but most common are "man in the middle":
- self defense (strike to loosen, break the hold, create space) - higher belts he wants to NOT see the same techniques over and over again, this can also include throws and sweeps at higher belts
- strike/kicks - either go in a circle person to person or work it across combos on each person's pad
- rolls and falls are usually tested separate
- sparring - brown belt and higher is 2 or 3 on one person for 3-5 mins ish
- ground work - at the higher belts you will be taken down and expected to get up or tie them up
- fitness - pushups, situps, planking
- kata - usually tested when you are mentally and physically exhausted, arms and legs already shaking and can hardly think straight

I have only been in my Shorin Ryu dojo 3 months - he has a 'testing day" but I can tell you he is ALWAYS watching ...... and that man does NOT EVER miss a thing ... EVER!!!! I can tell there are nights he is watching me to see where I am at. You have to sign up to be tested and there is a fee and being he orders the belts ahead of time I am guessing he already knows if you are ready He does have set "partner drills" and kumite drills you have to learn and he is watching, and kata and bunkai again he is always watching.

 

[skribs]

IMO, when determining your curriculum, start with the “end” in mind. What do you want a 1st dan to look like? What do you want them to know? That should inform your decision on what to include in your curriculum.

Way ahead of you on this

Once you know what you need to include, you have to plan on how you will deliver your curriculum. How will you schedule your classes? Will you use a set curriculum for each rank? Will you use a rotating curriculum? Some combination of each?

I would most likely use a set curriculum for each rank. For the most part, things in Taekwondo increase in difficulty as you rank up. I don't think it would make much sense for white belts to learn spin hook kicks and advanced forms before they learn roundhouse kick and the basic forms.

I could see using rotating curriculum for more of the RBSD types of things. For example, at my school right now, white belts learn hand grab techniques, and red belts learn body grab techniques. I don't think the body grabs are much harder/more complicated than the hand grabs. However, if I tested them, I'd probably want a set curriculum, so it would be easier to maintain consistency in testing. It's a good thought.

As for testing, I prefer to have a specific cycle so that everyone knows when the next opportunity to test is approaching. For us, it’s an 8 week cycle. This cycle gives students and instructors a sense of urgency and gives direction to daily class planning, in my opinion.

My current school tests every 2 months. I'd have to wait and see what my numbers are and how my curriculum works. If I have 20 people, and it ends up being 6 months between tests for most people, then having a whole week to dedicate to testing every 2 months is probably overkill. If I have 80 people, and people pick up on the curriculum quickly, then it will make more sense.

Our Hapkido class usually has 4-8 people total, so our tests in there are just done during class time.

When it comes to testing individual skills, I find that being consistent in terminology and approach in class eliminates most confusion at the test. If I’m going to test combinations, for example, students have several cues that they are familiar with from class: names of techniques, name of footwork (we use a number system for this so no explanation is needed), and the way the targets are held. Very little direction is needed if consistency is maintained.

Are you holding targets during testing? Our tests are more formal, with the judges sitting at a table and the students lined up in front of us.

Can you give me an example of the number system you use for footwork?

 

[Jaeimseu]

Way ahead of you on this



I would most likely use a set curriculum for each rank. For the most part, things in Taekwondo increase in difficulty as you rank up. I don't think it would make much sense for white belts to learn spin hook kicks and advanced forms before they learn roundhouse kick and the basic forms.

I could see using rotating curriculum for more of the RBSD types of things. For example, at my school right now, white belts learn hand grab techniques, and red belts learn body grab techniques. I don't think the body grabs are much harder/more complicated than the hand grabs. However, if I tested them, I'd probably want a set curriculum, so it would be easier to maintain consistency in testing. It's a good thought.



My current school tests every 2 months. I'd have to wait and see what my numbers are and how my curriculum works. If I have 20 people, and it ends up being 6 months between tests for most people, then having a whole week to dedicate to testing every 2 months is probably overkill. If I have 80 people, and people pick up on the curriculum quickly, then it will make more sense.

Our Hapkido class usually has 4-8 people total, so our tests in there are just done during class time.



Are you holding targets during testing? Our tests are more formal, with the judges sitting at a table and the students lined up in front of us.

Can you give me an example of the number system you use for footwork?

1. I rotate my self defense and sparring curriculum so that everyone in the same class does the same material. I used to divide all curriculum by rank, but as the only instructor, it gets tough once you have a few ranks in class.

2. I’d recommend breaking up your curriculum into small enough pieces that it can be taught in whatever period of time you choose. I’d add ranks in, if necessary. Getting a new belt gives at least the illusion of progress until real progress is made.

3. My tests are set up as formal events with no regular classes on test day. I sit behind a table and the students are in full uniform. I get up to hold targets or boards if necessary, though these days I usually have an assistant.

4. I’ll try to describe it.

#1 Forward-No Stance Change
#2 Backward-No Stance Change
#3 Forward Step-Stance Change
#4 Backward Step- Stance Change
#5 Forward Step-turning the back
#6 Backward Step-turning the back
#7 Side Step-No Stance Change open side
#8 Side Step-No Stance Change closed side
#9 Side Step-Stance Change
#10 Switch Stance


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[Buka]

I've been thinking about this thread for a couple of days, but I'm at a loss for words. Not in the traditional sense, but rather in the complexities of how every place is different. Even the same place with be somewhat different than it was ten years before, or ten years afterwards.

I test techniques differently for different students. Say I was going to cover/test a jump spin kick, any jump spin kick. There's going to be some students that just can't throw them in any realistic, applicable way. So, with them, I'd test how they would defend against it vs one of their dojo mates who was a hell kicker.

Would they avoid, if so how? Would they jam it? Would they always try to out-position so the kicker never had the opportunity to throw it?

While it doesn't have any obvious benefits for self defense - because there more than likely won't be jump spin kicks thrown at you in a self defense situation, what it does do is teach a person how to tactically think and handle somebody who might be more physically gifted.

If there are more experienced students in your dojo, better fighters, better grapplers, better athletes - those are the folks you always want to spar/roll with. Yeah, it's tough at first, but down the road, you'll be glad you did.

 

[dvcochran]

I've been thinking about this thread for a couple of days, but I'm at a loss for words. Not in the traditional sense, but rather in the complexities of how every place is different. Even the same place with be somewhat different than it was ten years before, or ten years afterwards.

I test techniques differently for different students. Say I was going to cover/test a jump spin kick, any jump spin kick. There's going to be some students that just can't throw them in any realistic, applicable way. So, with them, I'd test how they would defend against it vs one of their dojo mates who was a hell kicker.

Would they avoid, if so how? Would they jam it? Would they always try to out-position so the kicker never had the opportunity to throw it?

While it doesn't have any obvious benefits for self defense - because there more than likely won't be jump spin kicks thrown at you in a self defense situation, what it does do is teach a person how to tactically think and handle somebody who might be more physically gifted.

If there are more experienced students in your dojo, better fighters, better grapplers, better athletes - those are the folks you always want to spar/roll with. Yeah, it's tough at first, but down the road, you'll be glad you did.

Excellent, excellent teaching methodology.

 

[skribs]

but I'm at a loss for words.

There's a first

 

[skribs]

I've been thinking about this thread for a couple of days, but I'm at a loss for words. Not in the traditional sense, but rather in the complexities of how every place is different. Even the same place with be somewhat different than it was ten years before, or ten years afterwards.

I test techniques differently for different students. Say I was going to cover/test a jump spin kick, any jump spin kick. There's going to be some students that just can't throw them in any realistic, applicable way. So, with them, I'd test how they would defend against it vs one of their dojo mates who was a hell kicker.

Would they avoid, if so how? Would they jam it? Would they always try to out-position so the kicker never had the opportunity to throw it?

While it doesn't have any obvious benefits for self defense - because there more than likely won't be jump spin kicks thrown at you in a self defense situation, what it does do is teach a person how to tactically think and handle somebody who might be more physically gifted.

If there are more experienced students in your dojo, better fighters, better grapplers, better athletes - those are the folks you always want to spar/roll with. Yeah, it's tough at first, but down the road, you'll be glad you did.

My opinion is that even if someone can't do it themselves, I want to know that they can teach it to someone else if they were teaching class, or someone came to them for advice. They might not be able to do the jump spin kick at a practical level, but if they can demonstrate the component parts enough that someone can learn from them, then I'd want to see that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My opinion is that even if someone can't do it themselves, I want to know that they can teach it to someone else if they were teaching class, or someone came to them for advice. They might not be able to do the jump spin kick at a practical level, but if they can demonstrate the component parts enough that someone can learn from them, then I'd want to see that.

That would be my approach at higher ranks, but at early ranks, I wouldn’t expect them to be able to teach it. Personally, if someone is unsuited to a technique, I’ll test (and teach) something to fill the same spot, tactically and functionally. So, if a person is too tight for a specific kick, I’ll teach what I can of that, plus what they can substitute for it in practice, use, and testing.

 

[dvcochran]

That would be my approach at higher ranks, but at early ranks, I wouldn’t expect them to be able to teach it. Personally, if someone is unsuited to a technique, I’ll test (and teach) something to fill the same spot, tactically and functionally. So, if a person is too tight for a specific kick, I’ll teach what I can of that, plus what they can substitute for it in practice, use, and testing.

Agree. We teach incremental skills/drills to help a person learn the mechanics of advanced techniques (jump spinning kicks in this case). They may never be able to perform the kick at a high level but they will understand the mechanics. Finding each persons individual best is the most satisfying end game.
Over time, this will allow them to see and explain the kick to another person.
I do think it is hard(er) for a lesser skilled person to teach advanced techniques. It is not always natural for them to 'draw' ability out of other, more naturally gifted people. The exception would be people who are very mentally driven.