Really bummed about my recent test

[JowGaWolf]

a pass is a pass, take it and move on.

if you thibk he is an idiot or pickibg on you, dont give him anymore money, certainly not for a restest, thats just a silly thing to do and if you were going to quit anyway, say stick it up your %$%$ and quit now.

i would,

of course there is the possibility that your just not outstanding,

I have agree with you and Hanzou twice in the same month. I'm going to get my head examined lol. But I'm with you on the pass thing. A pass is a pass. As someone who trains because it's something I like to do, I could fail every test and it wouldn't change my enjoyment of training. Sort of like people who draw and paint as a hobby. They may not be the greatest but it's what they like to do. I almost fogot this, when I went through my drama.

The big question probably shouldn't be "Do I deserve an outstanding grade" but Who am I training for? Me or the grade? In a world where belts are handed out like candy, A Pass instead of an outstanding sounds good to me. If I had a gave a grade rank of "outstanding" then I would want that to be something not so easy to obtained.

 

[Flying Crane]

I've criticized his curriculum plenty on here and on reddit and he hasn't said anything. I'm not worried about him seeing this. It is a public forum, but I also refrain from posting personal information. That's one reason I wish to remain mostly anonymous here.

One thing I've thought as a result of this is that if I do continue and go on to open my own school, I would videotape every test. That way, if anyone complains, we can look at it together.

There have been other tests in the past where I've been upset at the grade other students got. For example, there was one test where all of the purple belts did a great job, but he didn't give a single one of them outstanding. I remember being shocked, because I had given my students all A's.

I'm not upset at the grade. I'm upset at the reason why. He is saying I made tons of mistakes, when I know I didn't. That is what I take issue with. One or two...okay, maybe he messed up a bit. But he listed over a dozen things I'm sure I didn't do. That's what's frustrating.

I can't get better at not making mistakes that I didn't make in the first place.

As I said, you've got some issues to work out and decisions to make. One way or the other, this is a poisoned relationship.

You are sure you didn't make mistakes. He says you did. Either he knows better and you accept his judgement as your teacher, or you decide he is wrong and you don't respect him and you leave his school. But my opinion, I really find this dirty laundry to be distasteful. I think you are being disrespectful by talking about this while you are still his student. And I gotta be honest, you are being pretty self-righteous about this, it even smacks of arrogance. It is off-putting.

 

[Jaeimseu]

Skribs, what is your plan for the future? You said you want to obtain your 4th dan and then open a school, right? Are you planning to open a school competing with your current school?


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[skribs]

I have agree with you and Hanzou twice in the same month. I'm going to get my head examined lol. But I'm with you on the pass thing. A pass is a pass. As someone who trains because it's something I like to do, I could fail every test and it wouldn't change my enjoyment of training. Sort of like people who draw and paint as a hobby. They may not be the greatest but it's what they like to do. I almost fogot this, when I went through my drama.

The big question probably shouldn't be "Do I deserve an outstanding grade" but Who am I training for? Me or the grade? In a world where belts are handed out like candy, A Pass instead of an outstanding sounds good to me. If I had a gave a grade rank of "outstanding" then I would want that to be something not so easy to obtained.

Like I said, it's not about the grade itself, but about why I got it. He says I did things that I know I didn't do.

As I said, you've got some issues to work out and decisions to make. One way or the other, this is a poisoned relationship.

You are sure you didn't make mistakes. He says you did. Either he knows better and you accept his judgement as your teacher, or you decide he is wrong and you don't respect him and you leave his school. But my opinion, I really find this dirty laundry to be distasteful. I think you are being disrespectful by talking about this while you are still his student. And I gotta be honest, you are being pretty self-righteous about this, it even smacks of arrogance. It is off-putting.

Then don't taste this laundry. You don't have to stay in this thread. I'm trying to figure out what I want to do, so I came here both to vent and to see what others have to say. The other option is I could just keep it to myself and make a less informed decision. I didn't join this community to NOT seek advice.

I'm being self-righteous because I am confident that I am right. I didn't get to where I am by being mediocre. Nor by having poor attention to detail or self-evaluation. I constantly criticize my own technique to be the best that I can be. And everyone else says I pretty much killed it at the test.

Skribs, what is your plan for the future? You said you want to obtain your 4th dan and then open a school, right? Are you planning to open a school competing with your current school?


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If I stay in the area, I would transfer to a different art, and then maybe come back to TKD later. This would give me the option to open a new school. But I'm thinking about moving (for other reasons) so I wouldn't be remotely close to where we are now.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If you open your own school someday, nobody will care what your passing grade was on your third Dan test.

lol They definitely won't care about that with me. lol. When I was teaching, new students only wanted to know 3 things.
1. Were they going to get good training. Cardio and strength
2. Did I seem knowledgeable. (usually determined through a visit)
3. Can I use what I was teaching and could I teach them how to use it.

The most I've ever had ask about my knowledge was "How long have you been doing Kung Fu" "When was the last time I taught Kung Fu" (most recent question). I'm pretty sure it's different with belted systems where many people go after the prize of having a high ranking belt. But I think for most people the belt system has been too abused like when you see a 12 year old with a black belt.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Like I said, it's not about the grade itself, but about why I got it. He says I did things that I know I didn't do.

The only thing about that is that sometimes video shows us things that we didn't realize that we are doing. There have been many times where I thought I was in a low horse stance only to look at the video and to be surprised at how high I was in the stance.

This is one of the things I really enjoy about using videos instead of mirrors. Videos give you opportunities to really see what you are doing vs feeling what you are doing. Now videos are a part of my personal training. Not saying this is why your teacher graded you as he did. I'm just trying to add some calming perspective. Sometimes our first reaction is bigger than what it needs to be. At least I know this is the case with me sometimes.

 

[Steve]

If it was just that he wanted me to do better, I'd just take the pass and move on. If it was one or two things, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. But I have no idea why he says I made all of those mistakes, when I know I didn't. The only possible reasons I can find are:

• He's lying to try and teach me a lesson
• He wasn't paying attention to me and just assumed I made a mistake
• He attributed the mistakes the others in the test made to me

I don't see how any of those are fair.

Option 4: You made the mistakes. You don't think you did, clearly. But he seems to think so.

 

[Steve]

Do. MMA.

You'd get some objective feedback on mistakes pretty fast.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Sounds to me your instructor is either getting senile or he has some need to exert his authority and control over you. If he is trying to teach you a lesson in humility, fabricating mistakes is definitely not the way to do it. Is this typical behavior for him? You said he's OK 95% of the time, but...? Have other students had the same experience during a test?

Want to stay with him till 4th dan and move on? How long will that take in your system - 2,3,4 years? Can you continue there and just enjoy working out, putting this experience behind you? Or will it eat away at you and destroy your love of the art, itself? These are all things you control.

Keep it all in perspective. Do what's best for you, make your decision and go with it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You'd get some objective feedback on mistakes pretty fast.

Can't help but to think about sparring. Get something wrong, make a mistke, yep. instant feedback. Don't think it was a mistake, then try it again. If the same thing happens, then mistake verified. lol

After awhile you'll stop questioning mistakes and the verification process will get shorter.

 

[skribs]

lol They definitely won't care about that with me. lol. When I was teaching, new students only wanted to know 3 things.
1. Were they going to get good training. Cardio and strength
2. Did I seem knowledgeable. (usually determined through a visit)
3. Can I use what I was teaching and could I teach them how to use it.

The most I've ever had ask about my knowledge was "How long have you been doing Kung Fu" "When was the last time I taught Kung Fu" (most recent question). I'm pretty sure it's different with belted systems where many people go after the prize of having a high ranking belt. But I think for most people the belt system has been too abused like when you see a 12 year old with a black belt.

In order to open a school in my organization, you have to have a 4th Dan and then take a Master certification course. If I don't have that, I can't open up with my organization, and then I lose a lot of the credibility within my art.

The only thing about that is that sometimes video shows us things that we didn't realize that we are doing. There have been many times where I thought I was in a low horse stance only to look at the video and to be surprised at how high I was in the stance.

This is one of the things I really enjoy about using videos instead of mirrors. Videos give you opportunities to really see what you are doing vs feeling what you are doing. Now videos are a part of my personal training. Not saying this is why your teacher graded you as he did. I'm just trying to add some calming perspective. Sometimes our first reaction is bigger than what it needs to be. At least I know this is the case with me sometimes.

That's the thing. It's not "your stances weren't good enough" or something like that. It was binary yes-or-no things: did I do the right technique or a different technique? Did I step with the correct foot?

You'd get some objective feedback on mistakes pretty fast.

Yes and no. As far as I know, there is no rote memorized forms or combinations in MMA. I'd essentially bypass this entire issue if I were training an art that didn't have kata or rote memorized combinations on the test.

Sounds to me your instructor is either getting senile or he has some need to exert his authority and control over you. If he is trying to teach you a lesson in humility, fabricating mistakes is definitely not the way to do it. Is this typical behavior for him? You said he's OK 95% of the time, but...? Have other students had the same experience during a test?

Want to stay with him till 4th dan and move on? How long will that take in your system - 2,3,4 years? Can you continue there and just enjoy working out, putting this experience behind you? Or will it eat away at you and destroy your love of the art, itself? These are all things you control.

Keep it all in perspective. Do what's best for you, make your decision and go with it.

I'll be eligible to test for 4th Dan by next December. So a little over a year left. (It takes 3 years minimum, I'm more than 2 years in, but we only do Dan tests in June and December).

He has a few senior moments, but most of them are harmless. For example, he'll tell us to do a technique one way one day, and then tell us another way the next. It usually comes across as "I've told you X", when he's been telling us "Y" for months. For example, one of our hand grabs changes every once in a while whether it ends in a punch or a break. He had the incorrect version of a technique for the 3rd Dan form, which he recently corrected. However, the other day in class, he did his old version. Little things like that. It's frustrating in the moment, but hard to take personally.

But every 6 months or so, he does something to assert his power over me. I noticed it usually followed someone asking me for advice. Although that didn't happen this time. It took me by shock, because I'd thought our relationship was getting better. He's been very positive about my contributions during COVID. He even had me conduct one of the tests last week. Then he hits me with this.

He was overly critical of me at the end of the test. I just assumed he was giving me a hard time, or that he expected me not to even make the mistakes I recognized. I don't know what he saw. But that's the only thing that makes sense is that he's fabricating these to try to push me to work harder or be more humble. If anything, it's having the opposite effect.

 

[JowGaWolf]

In order to open a school in my organization, you have to have a 4th Dan and then take a Master certification course. If I don't have that, I can't open up with my organization, and then I lose a lot of the credibility within my art.

That's only if you want to be recognized by your organization right? The one that you are thinking about quitting to do bjj?

 

[skribs]

That's only if you want to be recognized by your organization right? The one that you are thinking about quitting to do bjj?

Thinking about. Options are nice to have.

 

[Ivan]

• He's lying to try and teach me a lesson
• He wasn't paying attention to me and just assumed I made a mistake
• He attributed the mistakes the others in the test made to me

You need to remember that, in the end, it doesn't matter what he thinks. What matters is what you know. I know the pain of being a perfectionist, but you should strive to reach the point where you focus on what you think you could work on, improve on, and what you think you did well. Because in the end your path is yours to walk alone; it's fine to get input from others, but whether the input is useful or not is ultimately up to you.

In your shoes, I would take the pass, and if you feel it's not for you anymore, find something more fulfilling. I would suggest you learn to let go, or things like this will eat away from the inside. Good luck.

 

[skribs]

I spoke with the other judge. She did bring up one thing he corrected me on for my Pyongwon form. I do remember that.

However, I'm going to show my arrogance again: I think his correction was wrong. This is based on having watched dozens of videos of this form being done the way I was doing it, and not the way he wants it done.

 

[wab25]

First off, you have to realize that people are not perfect and as soon as you involve people, you will have issues. A key is to figure out why you are doing what you are doing. Then decide if its worth it or not. Is it worth it to you, to have to deal with people? You can go to another organization... but it will also have people... so you don't gain much.

For my jujitsu organization, to test for shodan, you need to to compete in at least one kata competition. When I was getting ready to test, I found a kata contest and got a partner. (in jujitsu kata, there are two people doing the kata, you compete as teams...) We trained the kata for 3-4 months. We learned a ton more about the kata, the techniques, the details... all kinds of stuff. We peaked during the contest... our best ever run through the 8 kata and the combative sequence, happened during the contest and was the run that got scored. The people watching, cheered, we could hear them saying that was it, no way to top that. Even when the other teams went, you could hear people talking about how they did not come close to ours, some people thought we should be judged against the black belts, as it wasn't fair to judge the other brown belts against us. When the results came out, we got 3rd. The crowd gasped. The 2nd and 1st place teams apologized because they thought we had won. We had a ton of people come up and tell us that we should have won. Two of the people that came up and told us that, were two of the three judges, that had scored the brown belt contest. I asked the second one "well, then why did we get 3rd? You of all people could have changed it, if you thought we should have won." His answer was: "You went first, so we had to give you a middle score, so people could possibly score higher as the competitors went through." At that moment, I was ticked. First, there is no requirement to score the first competitor as medium and second, even if you do, you don't score people higher if they didn't do as well. My partner reminded me that we came to compete and satisfy a requirement to test... not to win. Additionally, we did our best, when it counted. It took me a while to accept that. But, I did learn from it. (even though the judges were not trying to teach me anything)

In my current situation, I am still shodan after 15 years of constant training, as a shodan. In order to test for nidan, I have to attend a certain number of the organizations events and compete in an organization competition, for 2 consecutive years. The nearest dojo to me in our organization is 600 miles away. I don't have the time or money, to fly or drive all over the US chasing these events, in order to meet requirements to test. The organization asked me to start my school to expand their organization into a new area for them to grow. Most other dojos are close enough to other dojos, that students take a hour and a half drive, do their event and go home. That nearest dojo to me, 600 miles away, has 5-6 instructors and the head instructor is a board member of the organization. When his students need events or competitions... they pick 3 instructors to judge, give the class 20 minutes to practice their kata and then hold their own competition and retro actively add it to the organizations calendar. My school is too small, with only one black belt (me), so their is no way I could hold a sanctioned event, unless I can convince 4 other black belts to make at least a 600 mile one way trip, which they are not willing to do.

My solution? I am happy with shodan. There is no reason to stop training and in fact no reason to stop progressing in my own art. The color of your belt has little to do with the progress in your art. When I do get out to organization events, and meet high ranking people (4, 5, 6+ ranked people) out on the mat, they assume I am sandan or at least a nidan getting ready for the sandan test. When I train in other arts, close to home... those people think I am sandan or yodan. They are very surprised to find out I am shodan. I put on a seminar on hip throws and invited the Aikido school we rent the dojo from. They invited their sister schools, a bunch of Judo guys from a local Judo school showed up, some Daito Ryu students showed, as did Karate and Kendo students... all showed up because their instructors had seen me doing demos, heard about the seminar and sent their students and many showed up themselves. I am not trying to toot my own horn here... but trying to illustrate that you can progress without needing rank... and people will recognize it when they see it. (to be fair, I also attend as many of their events as I can as well... I have to learn somewhere)

The thing is, I have found my reason for training. And I have found my way to progress. For me, it takes a lot of time and a lot of study... as I don't have a teacher on the mat to tell me how to fix it or if this is right or wrong. Would I be able to progress faster if I were closer to other dojos and could make events more easily? Well... I could get the ranks and the belts certainly... but, I am not so sure about the real progress. It may be, that having to find my own way, in the long run, is helping me learn faster... or not. Either way, I am learning and training... thats all I need. You will have to reach your own conclusions about your training... but you can't escape people... they will always be there. Thats why it is important to have your own reasons, your own goals and to be happy with those... because people are going to ruin it, its what we do.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Thinking about. Options are nice to have.

Well if you quit, would it prevent you from being able to open your own school? I mean if that's what you are interested in. Some people like to just train and not teach

 

[skribs]

First off, you have to realize that people are not perfect and as soon as you involve people, you will have issues. A key is to figure out why you are doing what you are doing. Then decide if its worth it or not. Is it worth it to you, to have to deal with people? You can go to another organization... but it will also have people... so you don't gain much.

For my jujitsu organization, to test for shodan, you need to to compete in at least one kata competition. When I was getting ready to test, I found a kata contest and got a partner. (in jujitsu kata, there are two people doing the kata, you compete as teams...) We trained the kata for 3-4 months. We learned a ton more about the kata, the techniques, the details... all kinds of stuff. We peaked during the contest... our best ever run through the 8 kata and the combative sequence, happened during the contest and was the run that got scored. The people watching, cheered, we could hear them saying that was it, no way to top that. Even when the other teams went, you could hear people talking about how they did not come close to ours, some people thought we should be judged against the black belts, as it wasn't fair to judge the other brown belts against us. When the results came out, we got 3rd. The crowd gasped. The 2nd and 1st place teams apologized because they thought we had won. We had a ton of people come up and tell us that we should have won. Two of the people that came up and told us that, were two of the three judges, that had scored the brown belt contest. I asked the second one "well, then why did we get 3rd? You of all people could have changed it, if you thought we should have won." His answer was: "You went first, so we had to give you a middle score, so people could possibly score higher as the competitors went through." At that moment, I was ticked. First, there is no requirement to score the first competitor as medium and second, even if you do, you don't score people higher if they didn't do as well. My partner reminded me that we came to compete and satisfy a requirement to test... not to win. Additionally, we did our best, when it counted. It took me a while to accept that. But, I did learn from it. (even though the judges were not trying to teach me anything)

In my current situation, I am still shodan after 15 years of constant training, as a shodan. In order to test for nidan, I have to attend a certain number of the organizations events and compete in an organization competition, for 2 consecutive years. The nearest dojo to me in our organization is 600 miles away. I don't have the time or money, to fly or drive all over the US chasing these events, in order to meet requirements to test. The organization asked me to start my school to expand their organization into a new area for them to grow. Most other dojos are close enough to other dojos, that students take a hour and a half drive, do their event and go home. That nearest dojo to me, 600 miles away, has 5-6 instructors and the head instructor is a board member of the organization. When his students need events or competitions... they pick 3 instructors to judge, give the class 20 minutes to practice their kata and then hold their own competition and retro actively add it to the organizations calendar. My school is too small, with only one black belt (me), so their is no way I could hold a sanctioned event, unless I can convince 4 other black belts to make at least a 600 mile one way trip, which they are not willing to do.

My solution? I am happy with shodan. There is no reason to stop training and in fact no reason to stop progressing in my own art. The color of your belt has little to do with the progress in your art. When I do get out to organization events, and meet high ranking people (4, 5, 6+ ranked people) out on the mat, they assume I am sandan or at least a nidan getting ready for the sandan test. When I train in other arts, close to home... those people think I am sandan or yodan. They are very surprised to find out I am shodan. I put on a seminar on hip throws and invited the Aikido school we rent the dojo from. They invited their sister schools, a bunch of Judo guys from a local Judo school showed up, some Daito Ryu students showed, as did Karate and Kendo students... all showed up because their instructors had seen me doing demos, heard about the seminar and sent their students and many showed up themselves. I am not trying to toot my own horn here... but trying to illustrate that you can progress without needing rank... and people will recognize it when they see it. (to be fair, I also attend as many of their events as I can as well... I have to learn somewhere)

The thing is, I have found my reason for training. And I have found my way to progress. For me, it takes a lot of time and a lot of study... as I don't have a teacher on the mat to tell me how to fix it or if this is right or wrong. Would I be able to progress faster if I were closer to other dojos and could make events more easily? Well... I could get the ranks and the belts certainly... but, I am not so sure about the real progress. It may be, that having to find my own way, in the long run, is helping me learn faster... or not. Either way, I am learning and training... thats all I need. You will have to reach your own conclusions about your training... but you can't escape people... they will always be there. Thats why it is important to have your own reasons, your own goals and to be happy with those... because people are going to ruin it, its what we do.

We've had similarly bad experiences with competition in my art. When I was a kid, my Mom sparred as a low colored belt against a black belt who wore low colored belts to tournaments so she could get medals. Used illegal kicks and injured my Mom and another woman.

In order to teach on my own in my organization, I need 4th Dan. That's where my goal is right now (unless I do quit).

 

[wab25]

In order to teach on my own in my organization, I need 4th Dan. That's where my goal is right now (unless I do quit).

Then suck it up, take the pass and get your 4th dan. Don't let this stand in your way... in fact its not standing in your way. Just move on.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This is based on having watched dozens of videos of this form being done the way I was doing it, and not the way he wants it done.

I'm confused now. Were you doing the form the way he wants it to be done or the way that the organization does it?