Racism in Martial Arts

[Steve]

I didn't really have to say they are racists. They made that abundantly clear. As for being the new guy, that is irrelevant. Whether I was there five minutes, five months, or five years, one guy clearly said the N word. I mean, I don't know many non-racists who say it with such hatred in their voice like he did.

okay. You believe what you want to believe.

Let me just say it this way. What would I do? I'm a guy running a small group of folks I've known for years. A new guy comes to me accusing two of my oldest training partners of being a racist. I would thank him and tell him that I'll talk to the guys. I'd then talk to the guys and remind them that if they're racists they need to keep it out of the school.

If that new guy feels like it's appropriate to follow up, I'll politely tell him that it's really no longer his business. If he gives me attitude and starts suggesting on a public forum that I'm not acting with integrity, I might have to do something about that new guy.

That's how I'd handle it as a school owner.

If I'm the person who witnessed overt racism, I'd first say something to the guys directly. Then I'd mention it to the school owner. If he says he talked to them and I don't believe him, I'd look for a new school. I wouldn't stay at a place where I think the school owner lacks integrity and where the students are overt racists.

That's how if handle it as a student.

 

[JowGaWolf]

On this board, we have discussed transgendered people and LGBT people in martial arts. Now I would like to see what people think about THIS particular issue.

Last Sunday I was at my Wing Chun class. There were four people there total: the Sifu, two other gentlemen, and myself. For those of you who have not seen my previous profile picture, I am a white boy. However, I have daughters who are part black. You will see why I needed to preface the story with that in a moment.

I was doing Chi Sao with the Sifu when I overheard a conversation that the other two gentlemen were having. One man started talking about how he hated the whole "Black Lives Matter" thing, and the other said, "Yeah, I'm sick of those N-words complaining."

I stopped doing Chi Sao immediately and told them I did not appreciate that kind of talk, and it was very offensive to me. They just looked at me funny, then continued doing their practice. Then it dawned on me: "Wow...only 4 people here, and 50% of them said offensive things!"

Personally, I don't feel like training with these gentlemen anymore. My love of my daughters exceeds my love of Wing Chun training, and it is my belief that by hanging out with them, they will probably think I am okay with it after all.

At any rate, I do have other ways in which I could pursue Wing Chun training without having to feel like I sold out any other beliefs that I have.

I'm not asking anyone what they think I should have done. I posted this because the question is, "What would YOU do?"

Thanks for sharing this personal experience. As a black male, black people are often accused of taking things out of context, that racism doesn't exist, and that we are always playing the race card. The fact that you had a chance to see and experience this is wonderful in the context that you were able to see the very thing that black people often refer to when we talk about racism. Sometimes things aren't real until they happen to you, and when they do it sucks. My nephew is part white and part black and I don't like it when I hear racist things about white people. I didn't like it from the start but now, it is more personal to me because of my nephew. Before I was offended because it was wrong. Now I'm offended because it's wrong and personal.

For me personally I don't know what I would do. I guess it depends on if a student said it or if the teacher said it. If the teacher said it then I would leave. If a student said it, then I may stay. The reason I say this is because I've grown up with things like this and most of the time there wasn't an option to leave or remove myself from their presence. Things like this are just "ugly truths of life". Sometimes I speak against it and sometimes I don't. When I speak against it, I just ask the person not to speak like that around me. Or I say not all white people are like that. I guess it just depends on my mood. Normally I don't get negative feedback when I ask people not to speak like that around me. I think part of that is a form of respect for me, as they could easily tell me to STFU. My experience with stuff like this as been crazy, but in almost every situation, when I took the high road and set the example, others either followed or kept the racism to themselves. But each situation is different so I don't have a one size fits all response to this.

I've known black women and men who hated white people in high school, who grew up to marry someone white. I've spoken to a son of KKK member who questioned what his father was teaching him, when he noticed that I wasn't the animal that his father claimed black people were. This world is crazy but sometimes things workout for the better. Who knows, if they knew about your daughters then maybe they would have a different perspective. But then again. They may try to make your life miserable.. I just don't have a set answer for how I would have responded.

 

[JowGaWolf]

We are there to train. We are a family and we behave as one, but we respect each other as fellow karate students first and foremost.

This is how it is in at my school. The kung fu family is an adopted family for us and for some of the kids.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I would like to point out that sometimes leaving isn't the right option. Sometimes staying is what makes the difference and is what make things change for the better. Sometimes you just have to say. "I'm not the one with the problem, so if anyone leaves, then it'll be them." If you have to put up with those types of comments then they will have to put up with you correcting them and letting them know they are wrong. But once again each situation is different. The only thing that I would recommend to anyone one, is to look at it from multiple perspectives and try to determine if you can make a positive impact by staying. Then factor if the hardship of standing up for what is right is worth the battles you may have to fight. If these guys make up the school then leaving may be good. If they make up a small percentage then staying may help strengthen the good that is already there, and it may cause these guys to change how they see the world. There's no easy answer, but leaving isn't always a "good answer"

Had I not had a conversation with the son of a KKK member in high school then he would not have gotten the chance to social with me and compare my behavior with what his dad was trying to teach.

 

[virginialuther12]

Thank you for the post

 

[marques]

In my old school some subjects where simply 'forbidden' in the dojo. During practice, conversation was not allowed, anyway. Just short talk and about training.

I would include racism in the forbidden list, for prevention. So racists could train with no racists... (at least, if they look same origin). Now it is late for that.

I would be rather touched by xenophobism. And perhaps l would avoid that people. I don't think I would not train with them definitively.

 

[Buka]

I spent the first six years of my life in the projects. And that was pretty awesome back in the fifties, really enjoyable being a little kid. Our closets friends lived upstairs, directly above us, the Robinsons. Ten Robinson kids, just me. I'd be in the playpen with the three youngest ones (twins+) more days than not, folks working and all. For the first few years of my life, I was pretty sure I was black. Because there really wasn't any difference. Not when you're young. My three playpen brothers were black, never thought of them in that way, they were just Davy, Jimmy...and I don't even remember John's name any more.

Everyone knew the people in the projects that you had to stay away from. You knew just from being a kid and seeing them every day. And your parents told you to stay away from them, firmly. They were all differently nationalities, all different skin colors, all worked different jobs, probably different religious sects, too. (but we didn't know anything about that back then) They were just the people who were not good. Stay away.

I don't know, there just seemed to be a need to live by what people did, rather than how they looked, dressed, sounded like, ate or smelt. (Smell is big when you're a little kid).

As for in my dojo, yeah, right. You would have as much of a chance of being racially wrong - as you would have of crapping on the floor. Serious good luck with that plan, mister.

But I have racial issues deep within. Doesn't matter with whom, I have them, as defensive as they are, they are firmly there. They were not taught to me, not even subtly, they were thrust upon me by being the nationality I am in the places I happened to be at the time in Martial arts. Over and over and over again, for years. And from people not remotely associated with each other in business, but from the same place in the world.

Maybe I am a racist. Hmmm.

Intricate subject.

 

[Paul_D]

The only experience I have was at an old club were one my fellow students made no secret of the fact he did not like immigrants. Getting changed one night before training he made a comment about Polish people and Nazi gas chambers. He made sure he didn't do it within air shot of our Polish student of course.

I stopped changing into my gi and started getting changed back into my clothes and calmly walked out and went home. The instructors contacted me after class to ask what had happened, and after I explained they informed said student he was no longer welcome.

It was not that I was upset as such, everyone is entitled to their opinions, it was more due to the fact a MA club isn't the place for that sort of stuff. I come to train, not to listen to that sort of stuff.

 

[KangTsai]

I call it closet racism. Judging by the state of the US now, a trace of public racism will earn you an eternity if social mauling. Therefore, this stuff will only be said in private and very likely won't be muttered next to black people.

(Speaking of, I don't like BLM either. I think their chimpanzee-with-guns attitude and violent shenanigans border on terrorist level.)

 

[JowGaWolf]

I call it closet racism. Judging by the state of the US now, a trace of public racism will earn you an eternity if social mauling. Therefore, this stuff will only be said in private and very likely won't be muttered next to black people.

(Speaking of, I don't like BLM either. I think their chimpanzee-with-guns attitude and violent shenanigans border on terrorist level.)

Black Lives Matter is not bad. What they are pointing out is a real concern. The problem is how they are pointing it out that. My issue with them isn't so much about them as it is with me. I'm ole skool, so I believe that protests should be done during the day. I don't like night protest. If a group is going to be protesting then it should be during the day. I also didn't like the how they singled themselves out as if black people are the only ones being mistreated by some law enforcement bad apples. Other groups of people experience similar issues with the police.

My brother was pulled over on the way home accused of shoplifting in a store that he wasn't in. I've been pulled over and have been indirectly accused of trying to sell or by drugs late at night while I was on my way home from work. I used to live in a bad area. When asked where I lived, the police officer tried to tell me that I didn't live there. I've had police lie on me as well. But the reality of this is that it's not only a black thing because other groups of people get similar treatment. Including white people.

Unfortunately the organizers of Black Lives Matters didn't learn about the history of protesting and as a result they framed their concerns in such way that gave people "ammo" and opportunities to question the validity of their concerns. The real concern got lost in how it was communicated. So instead of people looking at the problems and concerns people are paying more attention to who is saying it and how they were saying it. I'm not sure how closely you were following those protest, but there were points where the ole skool civil rights leaders had to come out and help provide some guidance on what they must not do. Some of the same people who protested for civil rights were even disrespected by a small group of people who were in the crowd.

Things like this is why it's important to learn history. So that we can better understand what we should do and what we shouldn't do.

People with deep racist beliefs are different from those who are not informed. There is a difference saying something racially offensive out of ignorance vs saying something racially offensive out of that deep seeded hate where one group is viewed as below another group. I'm not just theorizing on this. I've felt the sting of both and the one that was said out of hate made me feel, unaccepted in my own city, it was the first time that I ever felt alone as a human. The one that was said out of ignorance made me pitty the person who was saying it, because they were misguided. You will know without a doubt when someone speaks with hate, because you'll feel the hate.

 

[donald1]

Its okay to dislike something. Personally I prefer to say ALL lives matter.

These people should know however, offensive terms are better off unsaid. They should know better than that. Thats a shameful act of disrespect and ignorance on their behalf.

I hope you can find a good school that respects those things!

 

[Steve]

I call it closet racism. Judging by the state of the US now, a trace of public racism will earn you an eternity if social mauling. Therefore, this stuff will only be said in private and very likely won't be muttered next to black people.

(Speaking of, I don't like BLM either. I think their chimpanzee-with-guns attitude and violent shenanigans border on terrorist level.)

at risk of being too political, I'm concerned that the trump campaign has emboldened the closet racists in our country, if that makes sense. I don't think you can just change a person's beliefs, but we can exert social and cultural pressure to marginalize destructive beliefs. In other words, you can't force a racist to change his belief, but you can force a racist to change his behavior.

So, when I hear closet racist, I think great. Keep it in the closet. But that's not the trajectory we are on.

 

[Ironbear24]

I spent the first six years of my life in the projects. And that was pretty awesome back in the fifties, really enjoyable being a little kid. Our closets friends lived upstairs, directly above us, the Robinsons. Ten Robinson kids, just me. I'd be in the playpen with the three youngest ones (twins+) more days than not, folks working and all. For the first few years of my life, I was pretty sure I was black. Because there really wasn't any difference. Not when you're young. My three playpen brothers were black, never thought of them in that way, they were just Davy, Jimmy...and I don't even remember John's name any more.

Everyone knew the people in the projects that you had to stay away from. You knew just from being a kid and seeing them every day. And your parents told you to stay away from them, firmly. They were all differently nationalities, all different skin colors, all worked different jobs, probably different religious sects, too. (but we didn't know anything about that back then) They were just the people who were not good. Stay away.

I don't know, there just seemed to be a need to live by what people did, rather than how they looked, dressed, sounded like, ate or smelt. (Smell is big when you're a little kid).

As for in my dojo, yeah, right. You would have as much of a chance of being racially wrong - as you would have of crapping on the floor. Serious good luck with that plan, mister.

But I have racial issues deep within. Doesn't matter with whom, I have them, as defensive as they are, they are firmly there. They were not taught to me, not even subtly, they were thrust upon me by being the nationality I am in the places I happened to be at the time in Martial arts. Over and over and over again, for years. And from people not remotely associated with each other in business, but from the same place in the world.

Maybe I am a racist. Hmmm.

Intricate subject.

I marked your post as funny because it made me laugh and smile. I grew up in my early child very similar and loved in the projects in Oxnard California. Many of us would go in and out of eachothers homes often because so many of us were friends. It was "the hood" and had pretty bad crime at times but I think that was one of the reasons everyone was so tight and close to each other. For safety reasons.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So, when I hear closet racist, I think great. Keep it in the closet. But that's not the trajectory we are on.

Unfortunately you are correct. Many people feel that it's ok to say things like that in the open, but they forget that racism is a 2 way street. There are closet racist on both sides. The harm that one can do to one group, can be returned in kind by the group. If one racist's group, say whites hate blacks, feel that they can be rude and disrespectful then another group say black hate whites will feel they can return the hate. And that's just one group, imagine all of the hate groups going at each other. The conversation soon becomes less about living together in society and more about one group vs another. Or multiple groups vs one group. The combinations are vast and a lot of good people are going to feel the pain that comes from it.

For me personally I have already been through the pain and my parents have had a more intense version of what I experienced. Hopefully after this last round of nonsense people will finally come to understand that it's just not worth it. There are no winners when the country turns on itself.

 

[Ironbear24]

Unfortunately you are correct. Many people feel that it's ok to say things like that in the open, but they forget that racism is a 2 way street. There are closet racist on both sides. The harm that one can do to one group, can be returned in kind by the group. If one racist's group, say whites hate blacks, feel that they can be rude and disrespectful then another group say black hate whites will feel they can return the hate. And that's just one group, imagine all of the hate groups going at each other. The conversation soon becomes less about living together in society and more about one group vs another. Or multiple groups vs one group. The combinations are vast and a lot of good people are going to feel the pain that comes from it.

For me personally I have already been through the pain and my parents have had a more intense version of what I experienced. Hopefully after this last round of nonsense people will finally come to understand that it's just not worth it. There are no winners when the country turns on itself.

As far as I'm concerned there is only one race and that is the human race. Race doesn't really exist outside of social constructs and labels anyway.

 

[JP3]

I stopped doing Chi Sao immediately and told them I did not appreciate that kind of talk, and it was very offensive to me. They just looked at me funny, then continued doing their practice. Then it dawned on me: "Wow...only 4 people here, and 50% of them said offensive things!"

Personally, I don't feel like training with these gentlemen anymore. My love of my daughters exceeds my love of Wing Chun training, and it is my belief that by hanging out with them, they will probably think I am okay with it after all."

As a white boy myself, who has always been brought up by mom to think that racism is just plain stupid, I have to agree completely with what you did in class. Immediate reaction, somewhat sharp, but courteous, and definitely to the point.

Where we'd disagree is where you are saying that you may not go back to class there, just because those 2 guys may be there. Questions and discussions are a battle of a different type, and many people choose to not engage. For me... and this is just me and not necessarily you... You might approach the one who indicated his negativity about BLM and simply ask him why he said what he said. I'd wager that, if called out on it, but without challenge in tone or posture, that person will probably display shame/guilt. I agree with above, this comes from ignorance.

If they don't, and you were to explain your own strong basis for dislike such talk (daughters is about the biggest one I can conceive of), then you are very probably experiencing the hate spoken above, not ignorance.

I further agree that, if you choose to go this way, and you feel a person's hate now being directed your way, address it to your sifu and if it is not immediately squashed, head elsewhere for training.

 

[drop bear]

Black Lives Matter is not bad. What they are pointing out is a real concern. The problem is how they are pointing it out that. My issue with them isn't so much about them as it is with me. I'm ole skool, so I believe that protests should be done during the day. I don't like night protest. If a group is going to be protesting then it should be during the day. I also didn't like the how they singled themselves out as if black people are the only ones being mistreated by some law enforcement bad apples. Other groups of people experience similar issues with the police.

My brother was pulled over on the way home accused of shoplifting in a store that he wasn't in. I've been pulled over and have been indirectly accused of trying to sell or by drugs late at night while I was on my way home from work. I used to live in a bad area. When asked where I lived, the police officer tried to tell me that I didn't live there. I've had police lie on me as well. But the reality of this is that it's not only a black thing because other groups of people get similar treatment. Including white people.

Unfortunately the organizers of Black Lives Matters didn't learn about the history of protesting and as a result they framed their concerns in such way that gave people "ammo" and opportunities to question the validity of their concerns. The real concern got lost in how it was communicated. So instead of people looking at the problems and concerns people are paying more attention to who is saying it and how they were saying it. I'm not sure how closely you were following those protest, but there were points where the ole skool civil rights leaders had to come out and help provide some guidance on what they must not do. Some of the same people who protested for civil rights were even disrespected by a small group of people who were in the crowd.

Things like this is why it's important to learn history. So that we can better understand what we should do and what we shouldn't do.

People with deep racist beliefs are different from those who are not informed. There is a difference saying something racially offensive out of ignorance vs saying something racially offensive out of that deep seeded hate where one group is viewed as below another group. I'm not just theorizing on this. I've felt the sting of both and the one that was said out of hate made me feel, unaccepted in my own city, it was the first time that I ever felt alone as a human. The one that was said out of ignorance made me pitty the person who was saying it, because they were misguided. You will know without a doubt when someone speaks with hate, because you'll feel the hate.

Yeah culturally we have a history of saying deeply offensive things. But there isn't the racial hatred behind it. We are just deeply offensive.

We are a country that uses the C word as a compliment.

I think that works better as having to be constantly on guard due to someone elses culture does not create trust bonds.

There is a case where an Australian fighter was banned from the UFC for making racist remarks.

Tyler manowara.

'TUF Nations' fighter Tyler Manawaroa won't get UFC contract due to racist Instagram post

 

[JP3]

Yeah culturally we have a history of saying deeply offensive things. But there isn't the racial hatred behind it. We are just deeply offensive.

We are a country that uses the C word as a compliment.

I think that works better as having to be constantly on guard due to someone elses culture does not create trust bonds.

There is a case where an Australian fighter was banned from the UFC for making racist remarks.

Tyler manowara.

'TUF Nations' fighter Tyler Manawaroa won't get UFC contract due to racist Instagram post

OK, I clicked that one funny. Drop, your location isn't showing, so I assume you're Aussie?

Almost Completely off topic.... Comedian Carl Barron from Australia has a short bit where he's talking about his friend he used to do roofing with, and I think he refers to himas a "C" about 3 times int he story but it's obvious they're friends, and quite tight.

But.... Whew! I just think about dropping a C on a girl/lady/woman here in the states and my hair starts to smoke. It would NOT be a pleasant experience.

 

[drop bear]

OK, I clicked that one funny. Drop, your location isn't showing, so I assume you're Aussie?

Almost Completely off topic.... Comedian Carl Barron from Australia has a short bit where he's talking about his friend he used to do roofing with, and I think he refers to himas a "C" about 3 times int he story but it's obvious they're friends, and quite tight.

But.... Whew! I just think about dropping a C on a girl/lady/woman here in the states and my hair starts to smoke. It would NOT be a pleasant experience.

When i used to bounce i would occasionally upset the odd American who would then try to curse at me. And while i could tell they were really trying it was like "mate not even in the same league"

 

[wingchun100]

I would like to point out that sometimes leaving isn't the right option. Sometimes staying is what makes the difference and is what make things change for the better. Sometimes you just have to say. "I'm not the one with the problem, so if anyone leaves, then it'll be them." If you have to put up with those types of comments then they will have to put up with you correcting them and letting them know they are wrong. But once again each situation is different. The only thing that I would recommend to anyone one, is to look at it from multiple perspectives and try to determine if you can make a positive impact by staying. Then factor if the hardship of standing up for what is right is worth the battles you may have to fight. If these guys make up the school then leaving may be good. If they make up a small percentage then staying may help strengthen the good that is already there, and it may cause these guys to change how they see the world. There's no easy answer, but leaving isn't always a "good answer"

Had I not had a conversation with the son of a KKK member in high school then he would not have gotten the chance to social with me and compare my behavior with what his dad was trying to teach.

This isn't really a school. This is/was an informal gathering of the one that I consider to be my Sifu, and two of his old Wing Chun brothers who both learned from the same person. So the Sifu and these other two are at the same "level," so to speak. As for why he got appointed Sifu and the others did not, I have no idea. Anyway, my point is there were only 4 of us there. Therefore, that means 50% of the people present said racist things.