Choosing the right art

[skribs]

It doesnt matter if one is mre believable. If both statements are completely unprovable.

I mean what is the top speed on an imaginary plane anyway?

I mean, nothing anyone says on this site is "provable."

Also, with this point, you're making the assumption that your art is effective, when you're assuming someone spending 10 years in the art that used a technique was effective. This is overused, but that's because it's the most blatant contradiction. If I spent ten years learning no touch ki jutsu, and someone attacked me, and I did a hadouken, which happened to hit them as they charged at me, would that be proof that system worked, or just a fluke?

1. I'm making the claim that a girl who took a reputable martial art for ten years used a striking technique to the nose, and that broke someone's nose. I'm not saying she watched DBZ for 10 years and successfully did a Kamehameha. You're doing the same thing Steve did. Say "saying a girl broke someone's nose is like saying she fought off ten ninjas."

These are techniques that HAVE proven effective time and time again. That's how boxers get KO'd. That's how MMA fighters get KO'd. That's how people who get into street fights get KO'd. I've seen hundreds and hundreds of examples of a strike to the face being effective. I'm not talking about some unseen mythical force that only a few who truly understand can comprehend. I'm talking about a strike to the face.

So yes. I think someone who spent ten years training strikes and training reactions when someone attacks you (grabs you, punches at you, etc) had some hand in how easily she broke the dude's nose.

2. If you did a hadouken and it successfully worked, I see no reason to assume it works until you try it again and see it fail.

 

[Steve]

To say I have an ego problem because a girl from my school broke someone's nose? I didn't even say I taught her. It's not even my ego in question. She had been at the school for years before I even started there.

But so far you've said it's impossible for someone to learn real skills in a martial art class if they aren't fighting daily as part of their job. When I presented a story of someone who has successfully fought off an attacker because of her martial arts training, you have chalked it up to:

• The girl probably doesn't even exist
• The girl got lucky
• The girl would have had the skills and reactions to defend herself even if she never took a martial arts class
• I might as well have said she fought off 12 ninjas while blindfolded because that's as believable as her breaking someone's nose

What world do you live in where it's impossible for a martial arts class to teach a teenager how to effectively strike someone in the face? That's like...the first lesson in most arts.

first, that’s not why I am beginning to think you might have an ego issue. And second, your post above is actually a straw man, in case you’re interested in learning the difference.

Just curious, have you ever felt liable or accountable when one of your students is hurt?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I mean, nothing anyone says on this site is "provable."



1. I'm making the claim that a girl who took a reputable martial art for ten years used a striking technique to the nose, and that broke someone's nose. I'm not saying she watched DBZ for 10 years and successfully did a Kamehameha. You're doing the same thing Steve did. Say "saying a girl broke someone's nose is like saying she fought off ten ninjas."

These are techniques that HAVE proven effective time and time again. That's how boxers get KO'd. That's how MMA fighters get KO'd. That's how people who get into street fights get KO'd. I've seen hundreds and hundreds of examples of a strike to the face being effective. I'm not talking about some unseen mythical force that only a few who truly understand can comprehend. I'm talking about a strike to the face.

So yes. I think someone who spent ten years training strikes and training reactions when someone attacks you (grabs you, punches at you, etc) had some hand in how easily she broke the dude's nose.

2. If you did a hadouken and it successfully worked, I see no reason to assume it works until you try it again and see it fail.

Okay, then you still don't understand the logical flaw involved. Which for some reason a lot of people don't. I happen to think you're a decent guy, and you seem tobe getting upset, so not going to push it any more in this thread.

 

[Steve]

Well, it is impossible to learn in class. It's impossible to learn experience in class. It's what I've gathered he's saying, after reading this argument play out over and over on here. But @Steve is free to say I'm wrong if I'm not getting his point right.



Again, we agree here. I have no desire to prove what I do works. But that means I can't tell others, definitively, that it does. I can only rely on others whom have used the same art effectively (which goes to the anecdotal part, unless it's enough people that I could make a study from it. IMO I would need 100 people, and 100 people from the same area that have needed SD not in my program to reliably state it's effectiveness. Not very likely to happen).


Actually, no. That's the beauty of controlled studies and large sample sizes, if you look in social psychology they're able to get around that all the time. Take something like the bystander effect. I can't clone people to see how each person would react to a situation, but I can repeat a situation enough times, with one change (variable) to determine if that change seems significant or not. The issue with doing that with martial art is that it means assaulting people for the purpose of an experiment, which isn't something that would be ethical by any ethical review board. I see the issue that exists here, I just personally have no way to fix it, beyond relying on security guards and bouncers to tell us what is/isn't effective.

Yes. Can someone learn a technique in a class? Sure. Even a disreputable school teaches people to make a fist and punch. It might even work sometimes.

 

[pdg]

My imaginary plane can do 4,200mph within atmosphere, or warp 12 in space.

(It's imaginary right, might as well imagine something good - I might upgrade it next week)

 

[Steve]

My imaginary plane can do 4,200mph within atmosphere, or warp 12 in space.

(It's imaginary right, might as well imagine something good - I might upgrade it next week)

That’s quite a plane. At what point does it become a spaceship?

 

[pdg]

That’s quite a plane. At what point does it become a spaceship?

When I close the windows.

 

[Steve]

Point 1B: If I have never been in a self-defense situation, I cannot personally state that a move works in self defense. I can explain why it should work in self defense, but I cannot actually say that it does. So when I'm teaching self defense, and someone asks me "will this work in real life", I should clarify that I don't actually know. From a marketing/business standpoint, I shouldn't, but as a person I agree that I should admit this. The exception to this (I haven't heard steve make this...I'm including it myself), is if I know someone who uses the art in self defense. So: I am not a security guard. One of my fellow students a few years back was in charge of a security guard company, and he arranged to have them taught shaolin kempo. Multiple security guards used it for their job successfully. So I cannot say that I can confirm it's useful in self defense, or say that it's useful in self defense in general, but I can suggest that it's useful in confrontations, based on there being multiple guards who successfully used SKK at their job (notice this is multiple people, not just one, for point 2).

great point. Here’s my take. Experience Is an essential, critical part of the learning process. Training can only take you so far. And it should be a huge red flag if the instructor has no experience in what he’s teaching. A guy who has no SD experience teaching TKD is not the same as a guy with no self defense experience teaching SD. He isn’t even, IMO, qualified to evaluate his training for SD.

So, let’s say you’re an aikidoka who trains in a school alongside several cops, and you learn the same, sound technique they do. It’s good training and that will get you to a point. But while they accumulate experience using the technique in their professions, you do not.

On a fundamental level, this is limiting, but might be surmountable. The issues become more pronounced the higher you go, because experience provides the fertile ground for more learning.

Let me say it like this: you can’t train to expert. The path to expert is training=>experience=>training=>experience. Over and over. It’s a loop. Can’t fake experience. It never goes training>training>training>expert! Yay.

In fact, it looks more like this, and depending on how complicated the field, their might be several sub loops. And the training that a journeyman benefits from isn’t the same as the novice. If you have experts and novices in the same class, best case, the novice just doesn’t get as much out of it.

[TABLE="class: brtb_item_table"][TBODY][TR][TD]Novice[/TD][TD]Journeyman[/TD][TD]Expert[/TD][TD]Elite[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Training=>[/TD][TD]Experience=>[/TD][TD]Training=>[/TD][TD]Experience=>[/TD][TD]Training=>[/TD][TD]Experience=>[/TD][TD]Training=>[/TD][TD]Experience=>[/TD][TD]Training=>[/TD][/TR][/TBODY][/TABLE]

 

[Flying Crane]

This is why I would never be able to run a school (and why I turned down the offer to do so when I was 20). If someone asked me "is kempo the best art", my answer would be no. Not because I don't believe kempo is a great art, but how do I know it's the best? I haven't tried every art out there. I have tried: Kempo, kenpo, judo, sambo, jujustu, bjj, kali, fencing, boxing, kickboxing, and ishin ryu. Of those, I wouldn't say kempo is the best. Kempo, IMO is the most rounded of those, but I still wouldn't call it the 'best' of them. I would tell whomever came in that kempo does seem to work, and that the training philosophy is more important than the art, and what my training philosophy is. I get why you would want to 'sell' your art though...Idt my way would get me a whole lot of customers.

At age 20 I would say nobody should be running a school. As you get older and have more life experience and a more mature outlook on all things, including martial arts, teaching becomes more appropriate. A good opportunity may get arise.

 

[mrt2]

I mean, nothing anyone says on this site is "provable."



1. I'm making the claim that a girl who took a reputable martial art for ten years used a striking technique to the nose, and that broke someone's nose. I'm not saying she watched DBZ for 10 years and successfully did a Kamehameha. You're doing the same thing Steve did. Say "saying a girl broke someone's nose is like saying she fought off ten ninjas."

These are techniques that HAVE proven effective time and time again. That's how boxers get KO'd. That's how MMA fighters get KO'd. That's how people who get into street fights get KO'd. I've seen hundreds and hundreds of examples of a strike to the face being effective. I'm not talking about some unseen mythical force that only a few who truly understand can comprehend. I'm talking about a strike to the face.

So yes. I think someone who spent ten years training strikes and training reactions when someone attacks you (grabs you, punches at you, etc) had some hand in how easily she broke the dude's nose.

2. If you did a hadouken and it successfully worked, I see no reason to assume it works until you try it again and see it fail.

Maybe because the person in question is a girl, we are all glossing over this, but is it anything to boast about that you, or someone trained someone to break someone's nose in a high school gym class? Doesn't that seem a bit excessive? Maybe I am missing something here, but if it were a guy who broke another guy's nose in a gym class, some might say that is a bit excessive.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

At age 20 I would say nobody should be running a school. As you get older and have more life experience and a more mature outlook on all things, including martial arts, teaching becomes more appropriate. A good opportunity may get arise.

Oh absolutely. There is way too much i do not know, MA or otherwise, to even consider running one.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

I mean what is the top speed on an imaginary plane anyway?

Depends on your imaginary engines.

(at no point did anyone state engines were included in this imagination)

 

[drop bear]

I mean, nothing anyone says on this site is "provable."



1. I'm making the claim that a girl who took a reputable martial art for ten years used a striking technique to the nose, and that broke someone's nose. I'm not saying she watched DBZ for 10 years and successfully did a Kamehameha. You're doing the same thing Steve did. Say "saying a girl broke someone's nose is like saying she fought off ten ninjas."

These are techniques that HAVE proven effective time and time again. That's how boxers get KO'd. That's how MMA fighters get KO'd. That's how people who get into street fights get KO'd. I've seen hundreds and hundreds of examples of a strike to the face being effective. I'm not talking about some unseen mythical force that only a few who truly understand can comprehend. I'm talking about a strike to the face.

So yes. I think someone who spent ten years training strikes and training reactions when someone attacks you (grabs you, punches at you, etc) had some hand in how easily she broke the dude's nose.

2. If you did a hadouken and it successfully worked, I see no reason to assume it works until you try it again and see it fail.

I know a girl who didn't take a martial art and broke someone's nose.

So we can conclude taking a martial art and not taking one is pretty much about the same. Making Steves conclusion more accurate.

 

[Flying Crane]

Oh absolutely. There is way too much i do not know, MA or otherwise, to even consider running one.

I think there is a mark of integrity in feeling like there is a lot you don’t know. I think we all do well to recognize that.

Still, there is plenty you do know, and it can be enough to do some teaching. I am looking at getting a small training group going in my community. I won’t open a school of my own, I want to work out of someone elses space. I don’t want the pressures of a committed business.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Oh absolutely. There is way too much i do not know, MA or otherwise, to even consider running one.

Technically a rewording of the above reply to this. You could just run a study group, not with the intent of teaching people but gathering people all ready established to go over the diffrent ways they do things and to brainstorm ideas and concepts etc.

(you might have to do some teaching if a complete beginner decides to join your group if you let them) Just keep in mind the point of calling it a study group is to just go over ideas with other people.

I was personally thinking about doing one in the not to distant future to get some comparative martial arts going in my area.


Or if you have the money/management, you could offer to do the business side of someone who wants to teach martial arts or run a study group etc.