Choosing the right art

[mrt2]

Making the choice: Wing Chun Or Karate


I’m currently 7 months in, and my Sifu reckons that I have a natural talent and pick the techniques up quickly. I feel that Wing Chun is very effective and now I do feel confident that I could use what I have learned in a real self defence situation.

H

Hmm. How would you know? Does your teacher bring in street thugs to do no rules sparring matches, with the street thugs allowed to use any weapon, concealed or not that they can carry? This is an issue with all martial arts, traditional and non traditional. Pressure testing MA techniques through sparring against other students is great. Really. But is it possible that all you are doing is learning to spar against other practitioners trained in the same way? So you are picking up Wing Chun. But how would you do against a boxer? Or a grappler? Or an untrained fighter with a weapon?

Learning a second martial art can make you a more well rounded traditional martial artist. Learning a grappling art like BJJ or wrestling might be even better if your focus is on combat. Or MMA even better. That said, you still don't know how you might handle yourself in the street. Because if someone confronts you in the street, it is usually because that person wants to steal from you, or he wants to hurt you. And people like that won't fight fair. So the focus of any self defense art is finding an opening to strike a blow that will allow you to extricate yourself from the situation, hopefully by stunning or incapacitating an opponent quickly. And that isn't at all the same as sparring in a dojo or gym.

I am not at all criticizing MA. I get a lot out of my Tae Kwon Do practice. Fitness, stress relief, fun, socialization, and to a certain degree, self confidence that if I were in a bad situation, I have some tools that an untrained person might not have. But, I am realistic about things. 3 or even 4 times per week training TKD, which involves some active free sparring (and even then light contact while wearing pads), won't turn me into a killing machine. .

 

[Steve]

My advise is to not expect practical fighting skill. Unless you work in a field where you will apply the skills regularly, it will be very unlikely you will learn anything reliable. Instead, train for fitness, enjoyment, or personal interest.

If you're looking to build reliable technique, you can either get a job or train a sport.

 

[skribs]

My advise is to not expect practical fighting skill. Unless you work in a field where you will apply the skills regularly, it will be very unlikely you will learn anything reliable. Instead, train for fitness, enjoyment, or personal interest.

If you're looking to build reliable technique, you can either get a job or train a sport.

You won't hone your skills on the job, but you can still learn real stuff even if you're not fighting in the real world all the time.

 

[skribs]

That makes more sense. I can see you explaining things differently to a preteen/teen than an adult...forgot that was your primary student base. It seemed out of character for you to try and 'trick' your students, but I was also thinking of them in terms of adults.

Even if they're adults, but they're beginners, it's still the same line of thinking. I'm not doing it from an ego perspective. I'm not exactly doing it from a salesman perspective (although there is a bit of that). It's telling people I'm confident that what they learn at our school will work.

However, I also make a point NOT to trash talk the other arts. I say our art is good. I don't say the other arts are bad.

 

[Steve]

You won't hone your skills on the job, but you can still learn real stuff even if you're not fighting in the real world all the time.

You might learn about real stuff. Not the same thing, though.

 

[Steve]

Even if they're adults, but they're beginners, it's still the same line of thinking. I'm not doing it from an ego perspective. I'm not exactly doing it from a salesman perspective (although there is a bit of that). It's telling people I'm confident that what they learn at our school will work.

However, I also make a point NOT to trash talk the other arts. I say our art is good. I don't say the other arts are bad.

Ego for some, maybe, but I think it's a lot about sales and that's a shame. Perfect scam though. When it works, affirmation. When it doesn't, well, that was circumstantial. Zero liability.

 

[now disabled]

Hmm. How would you know? Does your teacher bring in street thugs to do no rules sparring matches, with the street thugs allowed to use any weapon, concealed or not that they can carry? This is an issue with all martial arts, traditional and non traditional. Pressure testing MA techniques through sparring against other students is great. Really. But is it possible that all you are doing is learning to spar against other practitioners trained in the same way? So you are picking up Wing Chun. But how would you do against a boxer? Or a grappler? Or an untrained fighter with a weapon?

Learning a second martial art can make you a more well rounded traditional martial artist. Learning a grappling art like BJJ or wrestling might be even better if your focus is on combat. Or MMA even better. That said, you still don't know how you might handle yourself in the street. Because if someone confronts you in the street, it is usually because that person wants to steal from you, or he wants to hurt you. And people like that won't fight fair. So the focus of any self defense art is finding an opening to strike a blow that will allow you to extricate yourself from the situation, hopefully by stunning or incapacitating an opponent quickly. And that isn't at all the same as sparring in a dojo or gym.

I am not at all criticizing MA. I get a lot out of my Tae Kwon Do practice. Fitness, stress relief, fun, socialization, and to a certain degree, self confidence that if I were in a bad situation, I have some tools that an untrained person might not have. But, I am realistic about things. 3 or even 4 times per week training TKD, which involves some active free sparring (and even then light contact while wearing pads), won't turn me into a killing machine. .

Well said

You can go to every class known to man and still every situation won't be covered as you have alluded to

Folks do need to learn that a street fight is not as you say anything like a dojo set up ....rules don't apply in the street.

 

[skribs]

You might learn about real stuff. Not the same thing, though.

A student at my dojang was at her high school gym class when someone grabbed her and she broke his nose. I'd beg to differ on whether what you learn is applicable.

 

[now disabled]

A student at my dojang was at her high school gym class when someone grabbed her and she broke his nose. I'd beg to differ on whether what you learn is applicable.

I get your point my friend she reacted and dealt with it with the tools she had. Every one has there own definition about what rel stuff is and how it applied

 

[pdg]

Ego for some, maybe, but I think it's a lot about sales and that's a shame. Perfect scam though. When it works, affirmation. When it doesn't, well, that was circumstantial. Zero liability.

Saying your art is the best needn't be about ego or sales, but about practicality.

I do TKD, and I think it's the best for the following reasons...

It fits me, I enjoy doing it and I enjoy practicing.

That doesn't make other arts bad, but for me I'm much more likely to pay attention, practice and be able to apply something I like.

I also do kickboxing. That's not the best. It's not bad, but I don't get the same feeling for it as I do TKD. I turn up, I do the stuff, but I don't put the same concentration in over using it as a workout to help TKD practice. It's good, and somewhat fun, but not the best.

For me.

 

[Steve]

A student at my dojang was at her high school gym class when someonbe grabbed her and she broke his nose. I'd beg to differ on whether what you learn is applicable.

She's a lucky lady. Glad that guy took the hint. Had he decided that a broken nose was okay and she ended up hurt would you have similarly held your training accountable?

 

[Steve]

Saying your art is the best needn't be about ego or sales, but about practicality.

I do TKD, and I think it's the best for the following reasons...

It fits me, I enjoy doing it and I enjoy practicing.

That doesn't make other arts bad, but for me I'm much more likely to pay attention, practice and be able to apply something I like.

I also do kickboxing. That's not the best. It's not bad, but I don't get the same feeling for it as I do TKD. I turn up, I do the stuff, but I don't put the same concentration in over using it as a workout to help TKD practice. It's good, and somewhat fun, but not the best.

For me.

Just to be clear, my points have little to do with styles.

 

[pdg]

Just to be clear, my points have little to do with styles.

So what are they about then?

This part of the subdiscussion started with skribs saying he told people his art was the best.

 

[Steve]

So what are they about then?

This part of the subdiscussion started with skribs saying he told people his art was the best.

It's about the self serving, circular sales pitch. If you go back and look at my initial response, I said as much. Let me put it this way. Comments like skribs are common . "My instruction is awesome because I had a student once who fought 13 gangbangers off with her toothbrush." What ive never heard is, "one of my students was seriously hurt because it turns out my training isn't practical." So while the instructor is happy to be accountable for success, there is no liability for lack of success.

 

[pdg]

It's about the self serving, circular sales pitch. If you go back and look at my initial response, I said as much. Let me put it this way. Comments like skribs are common . "My instruction is awesome because I had a student once who fought 13 gangbangers off with her toothbrush." What ive never heard is, "one of my students was seriously hurt because it turns out my training isn't practical." So while the instructor is happy to be accountable for success, there is no liability for lack of success.

I went back and looked at your initial response a few times, and until this particular post that wasn't the message I got from it - maybe I was using the wrong English to read it

But anyway, no matter, I now see where you're coming from with it and can reply in a more suitable fashion.

If anyone really uses tall tales as a sales pitch they deserve to be pointed at with mirth, even though it may have some truth in it. Because really, their training is unlikely to be responsible for success or failure.

Anyone who uses their training practically is responsible for that themselves, likewise anyone who fails.

There are people at 'my' school who are, erm, less motivated, and those who apply themselves who would likely stand a decent chance.

Really, as they both receive the same training from the same person, is any reputable training ever at fault?

Of course, this has to have exceptions - like 'no touch'...

 

[skribs]

It's about the self serving, circular sales pitch. If you go back and look at my initial response, I said as much. Let me put it this way. Comments like skribs are common . "My instruction is awesome because I had a student once who fought 13 gangbangers off with her toothbrush." What ive never heard is, "one of my students was seriously hurt because it turns out my training isn't practical." So while the instructor is happy to be accountable for success, there is no liability for lack of success.

I love how you took "a girl at our school broke some guys nose" and expanded it into "I had a student fight 13 gangbangers with her toothbrush." Although now that you mention it, my Master did tell me recently that one of our students who is like 50-some years old recently got in a fight at Walmart against a bunch of people, but that story went through several people and translations before it got to me.

I would only say "one of my students got hurt because my training isn't practical" if I realized it wasn't practical and then left to find a new school. Anyone who realizes their training isn't doing it's job will probably not stay at that school. It goes back to what I was saying. If someone thinks another art is better, why would they stay at my school?

 

[mrt2]

A student at my dojang was at her high school gym class when someone grabbed her and she broke his nose. I'd beg to differ on whether what you learn is applicable.

It is an interesting data point. Though honestly, that sounds like it might not be a self defense situation at all. Was the guy really trying to assault her? And she broke the guy's nose in the relative safety of a high school gym, with a bunch of other students around.

When I was in high school, I only had occasion to use my MA training twice. The first time, when I had only been training about 6 months, I got sucker punched, so I would consider that a fail. The guy didn't fight fair, but I should have anticipated that. And I should have had my hands up when the guy was walking up to me. The other time I used it wasn't really a self defense situation at all. A guy was coming up on me not to hurt me, but I think just to embarrass me. He was pushing me in a jokey way, saying something like, what are you going to do, hit me with one of your Karate kicks? And I did, got him right in the nuts. Dude walked right into my foot. By then, I was much quicker, but then again, that guy wasn't really trying to hurt me, he was just horsing around.

 

[Steve]

I went back and looked at your initial response a few times, and until this particular post that wasn't the message I got from it - maybe I was using the wrong English to read it

But anyway, no matter, I now see where you're coming from with it and can reply in a more suitable fashion.

If anyone really uses tall tales as a sales pitch they deserve to be pointed at with mirth, even though it may have some truth in it. Because really, their training is unlikely to be responsible for success or failure.

Anyone who uses their training practically is responsible for that themselves, likewise anyone who fails.

There are people at 'my' school who are, erm, less motivated, and those who apply themselves who would likely stand a decent chance.

Really, as they both receive the same training from the same person, is any reputable training ever at fault?

Of course, this has to have exceptions - like 'no touch'...

All good . the question is, how do you really know if training is reputable? And following up, if you never use the training will it be there when you need it? I broke a bully's nose in the 3rd grade and had never had a self defense lesson. Anecdotes don't substantiate the claim .

 

[Steve]

I love how you took "a girl at our school broke some guys nose" and expanded it into "I had a student fight 13 gangbangers with her toothbrush." Although now that you mention it, my Master did tell me recently that one of our students who is like 50-some years old recently got in a fight at Walmart against a bunch of people, but that story went through several people and translations before it got to me.

I would only say "one of my students got hurt because my training isn't practical" if I realized it wasn't practical and then left to find a new school. Anyone who realizes their training isn't doing it's job will probably not stay at that school. It goes back to what I was saying. If someone thinks another art is better, why would they stay at my school?

I'm glad you loved it . I intended that to be a bit of humor . I sensed you were getting defensive and thought it would lighten things up . I usually say ninja in a dark alley but ninjas have been taking a beating lately.

 

[pdg]

All good . the question is, how do you really know if training is reputable? And following up, if you never use the training will it be there when you need it? I broke a bully's nose in the 3rd grade and had never had a self defense lesson. Anecdotes don't substantiate the claim .

By 'reputable' I mean it subscribes to a known (or lesser known) system. If it's more individual or bespoke, bets are off.

There's enough resources available these days to find out about even esoteric arts, and whether a particular school is following the art or just using the name.

And, there are also enough resources for anyone with the will to expand upon what the instructor says (which is always naturally abridged in a class setting).

Anecdotes aren't proof - but you broke a nose with no training.

You'd be talking Isaiah90 levels of bad for any training to make you worse...