acidemic testing vs martial school testing

[HighKick]

So this has been covered pretty extensively in educational research literature. There are three main types of assessment:

Assessment of learning, assessment for learning, and assessment as learning.

There are also case-by-case approaches depending on the student.

I've noticed in TMA, most of the assessment is either FOR or AS learning; assessment for informing the teacher and student of the progress, and assessment as learning occurs, like corrections during a class, respectively. I believe this has naturally been the case because TMAs are usually appreciated as lifelong endeavours, where assessment OF learning primarily happens by the student in times of reflection.

Because martial arts aren't exactly as standardised as national academic departments or institutions, and for good reason, assessments are much harder to quantify. But good teachers follow one of the three regardless. To what extent, how and appropriately, is another discussion entirely.

I fully agree there are no standards regarding teaching, but I think the diversity of styles has a lot to do with that. The emphasis is very different style to style.
The OF/FOR/AS assessment in modern education has a key gap because of the typical 'butt in the seat' style of education. There is little to no tactile learning. This is the prime mover in martial arts training and explains your FOR/AS assessment.

To me, it is the strongest, most effective way to learn.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I had that same attitude in school; at least in high school. I actively wanted to learn, but didn't actually care what grades I got. My teachers loved me for my attitude.

So did you go to public school? From my experience, in private school at least, teachers do want you to be motivated to get good grades, or at least they will take you aside and have a chat with you if your grades start to slide too much.

In college it was different, but that's specifically because the gpa that I got would impact me getting into a masters program and that would impact the job that I eventually got.

I see, so for you in college getting a high GPA would open more doors for you to get the job you wanted, in some cases the same could be said about rank in the martial arts.

Now I audit classes, or do self-study online. Since there's no impact on my livelihood, I can do that without worrying about grades or diploma, instead just making sure I get the knowledge/skills I'm there to get.

Well if it's self study there are no grades or diploma, other than ones you might give yourself.

 

[Buka]

So what you're saying is that a student's grades are an indication of how well and how much they've learned the material.

I think so, yes.

 

[Haruhiko]

So what you're saying is that a student's grades are an indication of how well and how much they've learned the material.

Grades typically follow a rubric, and that rubric has an author(s). Assessment is intensely subjective but there are methods to, through careful weighing of each domain being assessed, construct rubrics that can be considered accurate benchmarks for learning outcomes.

A grade is only as informative as the rubric from which it was derived, and the design of that rubric, educational philosophies of the author(s), and sometimes whether it's been reviewed by other educators.

 

[HighKick]

Grades typically follow a rubric, and that rubric has an author(s). Assessment is intensely subjective but there are methods to, through careful weighing of each domain being assessed, construct rubrics that can be considered accurate benchmarks for learning outcomes.

A grade is only as informative as the rubric from which it was derived, and the design of that rubric, educational philosophies of the author(s), and sometimes whether it's been reviewed by other educators.

I do agree but in certain subjects where the absolutes are 'vague' (non-mathematical for example), the rubrics are created subjectively as well. Your answer may not be my answer, but neither are 'wrong'.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I think so, yes.

Alright well you can also say in regards to belt and rank in the martial arts, that the belt or rank a student has is an indication of how well and how much they've learned the material. Just as you say that If a student isn’t getting at least decent grades in school, they are not learning, by the same token if a student of the martial arts isn't getting promoted you could say they're not learning the art.

 

[Haruhiko]

I do agree but in certain subjects where the absolutes are 'vague' (non-mathematical for example), the rubrics are created subjectively as well. Your answer may not be my answer, but neither are 'wrong'.

There's a process in rubric design where you and your colleagues weight the standards as integers, and need to justify them. So in the end it's very mathematical.

I'll give you an example:


This example is REALLY basic. But basically it's tiered, some levels within the rubric may be left blank (because the required skill within that level of mastery is either above or below the other skills that share that level of attainment).

Each level has a number, and then based on the student's meeting that level of satisfaction within the rubric, are given a total score.

There are different rubric designs like holistic as well but they're not as scientific as analytical ones. Analytical ones can be very complex if done properly.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Alright well you can also say in regards to belt and rank in the martial arts, that the belt or rank a student has is an indication of how well and how much they've learned the material. Just as you say that If a student isn’t getting at least decent grades in school, they are not learning, by the same token if a student of the martial arts isn't getting promoted you could say they're not learning the art.

Both parts of that statement assume the testing involved actually measures all of the learning. In MA, it’s entirely possible for a student to learn much, but not much of what’s tested. And if they aren’t testing, for whatever reason, their lack of promotion offers no indication of progress, at all.

 

[HighKick]

There's a process in rubric design where you and your colleagues weight the standards as integers, and need to justify them. So in the end it's very mathematical.

I'll give you an example:
View attachment 32934

This example is REALLY basic. But basically it's tiered, some levels within the rubric may be left blank (because the required skill within that level of mastery is either above or below the other skills that share that level of attainment).

Each level has a number, and then based on the student's meeting that level of satisfaction within the rubric, are given a total score.

There are different rubric designs like holistic as well but they're not as scientific as analytical ones. Analytical ones can be very complex if done properly.

You previously admitted the grading is 'extremely subjective'. That is all that needs to be said.
Yes, it is easy enough to create a matrix for 'excellent' through 'needs improvement' but when the assessment is subjective (in any measure) the value of the matrix is extremely sacrificed.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Both parts of that statement assume the testing involved actually measures all of the learning. In MA, it’s entirely possible for a student to learn much, but not much of what’s tested.

So you could say the same about school, that in an academic school setting a student is learning much but just not much of what's being tested on the tests, which results in less than decent grades, but that doesn't mean the student isn't learning.

And if they aren’t testing, for whatever reason, their lack of promotion offers no indication of progress, at all.

That to a point depends on whatever system the instructor has on how students get promoted, different instructors have different systems regarding that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So you could say the same about school, that in an academic school setting a student is learning much but just not much of what's being tested on the tests, which results in less than decent grades, but that doesn't mean the student isn't learning.

True. I'd argue that if this happens in an academic setting, it's probably a result of poor testing (meaning the test isn't valid for the material being taught). In a MA, it's possible a person learns to fight, but isn't good at the forms. If the test is heavy on forms, that person may not pass, though they have learned a lot. This isn't necessarily a sign of poor testing (instructor tests for what they consider important), rather a difference in focus between the test (instructor) and student. It would be like a student learning to write really well in a psychology class because they have to write papers, but never really getting good at the psychology content.

That to a point depends on whatever system the instructor has on how students get promoted, different instructors have different systems regarding that.

I thought we were talking about testing. If so, I don't see how this follows from my comment.