RandomPhantom700
Master of Arts
I hereby do declare the above post
:bs:
:bs:
Xequat
Black Belt
Thank you RandomPhantom700. I haven't read all nine pages of this thread, so here's something that I hope nobody else has brought up. Saying that Christianity is the only way is the same type of religious arrogance and extremism that makes the Middle East what it is today...and what it was 2000 years ago, because it hasn't really changed much in that time. I'm basically a Christian, but I certainly don't think that all Muslims are going to Hell because they don't believe in Jesus. All religions are right and all of them are wrong. I believe that God is fair, if God is in fact a being and not a force. I believe that it you are a Baptist and a good one, that you will go to the same place as a good Catholic, a Good Muslim, a good Buddhist, whatever. If you believe in God, worship Him as you see best. If not, then believe in good and evil.
heretic888 said:
Would you consider the Jungian concept of the collective unconscious on the same level as what you indicated above?
My personal opinion is that human beings invent a god/gods/goddesses/religions/GOD based on the influence of their environment and their own biological needs. Superficially, I can point at two things that corroborate the above statement. One is the fact we have different religions forming in different cultural/environmental areas. Two is that despite these differences, the purposes served and the commonalities shared between the faiths are very similar.
Good debate. I wish I would have jumped in the pool earlier.
:asian:
upnorthkyosa
upnorthkyosa said:
I wanted to change a few things I said above, but I ran out of time to edit the post. Just to clarify...
My personal opinion is that human beings invent a god/gods/goddesses/religions/GOD based on the influence of their environment and their own biological/psychologic needs.
In no way am I sure of the above statement. I realize that it's nothing but conjecture. At this point it's what I think...which is the hallmark of an agnostic.
michaeledward
Grandmaster
I find it difficult to believe in 'good' and 'evil'. These two words have always been adjectives, used to describe nouns. I can believe in the nouns. I can believe the nouns can behave in ways that are accurately described as 'good' or 'evil'. But to believe (have faith) in a descriptor is foolhardy, at best, I think.Xequat said:
Now, with our current President, this is especially difficult, because the great linguist George constantly confuses these adjectives with nouns. Claiming we will defeat evil (and the like). You know, I have to imagine that Laura can correct these incorrect uses of the English Language ... I don't know why she hasn't.
R
rmcrobertson
Guest
Thanks, Josh, for not only underscoring my point, but for bringing out the homoerotic subtext of some worship in a fashion scarcely equalled since Richard Crashaw.
If that offends, perhaps you'll come to an understanding of just how offensive it is for some of us to be told, again and again and again, that we have poor lives and will burn in hell afterwards unless we believe as you do.
And perhaps you'll understand why, somewhere on this thread, a poster remarked that part of the reason for their agnosticism was that there was no historical record of murderous crusades launched by armies of agnostics.
If that offends, perhaps you'll come to an understanding of just how offensive it is for some of us to be told, again and again and again, that we have poor lives and will burn in hell afterwards unless we believe as you do.
And perhaps you'll understand why, somewhere on this thread, a poster remarked that part of the reason for their agnosticism was that there was no historical record of murderous crusades launched by armies of agnostics.
michaeledward
Grandmaster
Hey Josh .... I am an Athiest. I have, in my past, been a pretty ferverent Christain. Can you do me a favor.Josh said:
Can you explain to me what is 'SIN'?
I want you to explain to me the concept of sin, without invoking 'God'. I may not be too bright, but I just can't figure out how I 'Sinned', when I don't believe there is a 'God'. And without 'SIN', I can't figure out why any sacrifice had to be made by anyone.
Just curious. Mike
M
MisterMike
Guest
Careful Josh,
If you talk about what Christianity is in the Study at Martial Talk, they come out in droves ready to burn you at the stake.
After all, Marx had more morals than Christ and pfft, some of these posters never even sinned. How darrrrrrrre you...LOL
If you talk about what Christianity is in the Study at Martial Talk, they come out in droves ready to burn you at the stake.
After all, Marx had more morals than Christ and pfft, some of these posters never even sinned. How darrrrrrrre you...LOL
M
Mark Weiser
Guest
Okay let me throw in my two cents worth in
Sin is the willful disobedience of a known moral code. if you know it is wrong and you do it then sin is the word of the day. However per another thread. Hell is not even a forethought in the minds and hearts of those whom live Judaism.
Sin is the willful disobedience of a known moral code. if you know it is wrong and you do it then sin is the word of the day. However per another thread. Hell is not even a forethought in the minds and hearts of those whom live Judaism.
michaeledward
Grandmaster
Mark Weiser said:
Mark, you are saying 'Sin' and 'Immoral' behavior are synonyms?
I can understand and agree with the definition of 'immoral' as willful action against the principles of a known moral code. I can even accept that 'moral code' does not need to be divinely inspired. But if the moral code is not divinely based, would 'sin' be the approriate way to define contrary actions?
I am an avid flyfisherman. One of the moral codes of fishing is to not leave tangled mono-filament lines in the woods (pack out your trash). If I had a horrible 'birdsnest' made of my line, and I cut it and left it in on the riverbank, would 'sin' be the correct way to describe that action?
M
Mark Weiser
Guest
Actually that is a good example if for instance you know that doing this act would violate your moral code you could use the label Sin to describe it. Sin is usually used in religious circles so this is a very broad brush lol.
-I guess I just want to be able to make my own decisions concerning my faith, my life. If someone thinks I'm going to hell because I don't believe or practice the way they do, then so be it. Although, the minute someone tries to exert any influence over me using religion as justification, we shall have problems. My choice to believe in what I want.
A---)
A---)
R
rmcrobertson
Guest
Way to misread, Mike. Hoorah.
Just incidentally---and relying merely on popular stereotypes---Marxists don't burn you at the stake. Christians do.
There's is that scene at the beginning of Malraux's, "Man's Fate," but that was the Kuomintang immolating marxists...and that was a rail engine furnace, oh yes...and there's Hemingway's well-deserved insults to the POUM in, "For Whom the Bell Tolls..." and there's Solzhenitsyn's "Gulag Archipelago," and," The Cancer Ward...," and Milan Kundera's, "The Book of Laughter and Forgetting," and Leo Strauss' books, and who knows how many others from China and the rest of Asia...
But hell, MM. Yawl keep hanging onto that notion that nobody but you never done heard of the ills of marxist governments....and the equally-hilarious refusal to consider the ills of capitalist governments...
Of course, in a decent society you'd have been given better books to read, better songs to sing. But hang on nonetheless.
Just incidentally---and relying merely on popular stereotypes---Marxists don't burn you at the stake. Christians do.
There's is that scene at the beginning of Malraux's, "Man's Fate," but that was the Kuomintang immolating marxists...and that was a rail engine furnace, oh yes...and there's Hemingway's well-deserved insults to the POUM in, "For Whom the Bell Tolls..." and there's Solzhenitsyn's "Gulag Archipelago," and," The Cancer Ward...," and Milan Kundera's, "The Book of Laughter and Forgetting," and Leo Strauss' books, and who knows how many others from China and the rest of Asia...
But hell, MM. Yawl keep hanging onto that notion that nobody but you never done heard of the ills of marxist governments....and the equally-hilarious refusal to consider the ills of capitalist governments...
Of course, in a decent society you'd have been given better books to read, better songs to sing. But hang on nonetheless.
RandomPhantom700
Master of Arts
Way to hijack the thread, robertson. But incidentally, when was the last time Christians, as a group, actually burned someone at the stake?
R
rmcrobertson
Guest
Dear RPetc:
Please actually read the posts before mine.
And Christians have burned folks at the stake a lot more recently than agnostics have...actually, wait a sec! We have no records of agnostics burning anybody at the stake because they're not agnostics!! Or launching a crusade to liberate the Holy Land from Christians!!!
Why, I'll be gosh-darned.
Please actually read the posts before mine.
And Christians have burned folks at the stake a lot more recently than agnostics have...actually, wait a sec! We have no records of agnostics burning anybody at the stake because they're not agnostics!! Or launching a crusade to liberate the Holy Land from Christians!!!
Why, I'll be gosh-darned.
M
Melissa426
Guest
Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maximas culpa!
(or, close to that, not sure on the spelling.)
Yes, I belong to a religion that maimed, burned, and basically killed 1000's if not millions in the name of their God. Does that mean I believe what they did was right? Absolutely not. Someone asked if religious ever come out and admit when they were wrong. The answer is yes. Eg., the Catholic church has admitted they were wrong in not doing more to protect the Jews during WWII.
There comes a time when individual responsiblity has to take prominence.
If I am pro-abortion, and get to Heaven, and find out that God really did think that abortion is murder, I will judged accordingly. But I am making the choice. No one is making it for me. To the agnostics and atheists who are reading this, all I can say is it's your life and future you are risking.
As Christians, we are called to share God's word. But if we encounter those who do not welcome us or listen to our words, we are to "shake the dust off our feet and leave that home or town." (Matthew 10:14)
Peace,
Melissa
(or, close to that, not sure on the spelling.)
Yes, I belong to a religion that maimed, burned, and basically killed 1000's if not millions in the name of their God. Does that mean I believe what they did was right? Absolutely not. Someone asked if religious ever come out and admit when they were wrong. The answer is yes. Eg., the Catholic church has admitted they were wrong in not doing more to protect the Jews during WWII.
There comes a time when individual responsiblity has to take prominence.
If I am pro-abortion, and get to Heaven, and find out that God really did think that abortion is murder, I will judged accordingly. But I am making the choice. No one is making it for me. To the agnostics and atheists who are reading this, all I can say is it's your life and future you are risking.
As Christians, we are called to share God's word. But if we encounter those who do not welcome us or listen to our words, we are to "shake the dust off our feet and leave that home or town." (Matthew 10:14)
Peace,
Melissa
R
rmcrobertson
Guest
Well, NOW I'm going to use the word, "smug."
Melissa, I appreciate the good wishes. I honestly do. However, I'm afraid I must decline the offer to accept your bullying God...you know, the one who seems to be telling you, "OK, them heathen don't have to believe, but it's gonna be their *** later."
You really think that some Big Guy sits up there like John Gotti, keeping score and getting even? How petty. How small.
Then there's the tangle of misrepresentations and bad history. Nobody's, "pro-abortion;" the Catholic Church did a little more than merely remain idle while millions were murdered during WWII; Protestants also have a little to answer for, historically speaking.
And then there's the bad theology. Strictly speaking, salvation is generally classified by Christians as a gift from God--which is one of the reasons that it is generally thought, in Christianity, to be extremely presumptuous to be absolutely certain of anybody's damnation.
I wish you all the best. I honestly do. I just don't feel any particular need to threaten you with hellfire and brimstone, or burning copies of Robert Ingersoll's lectures.
Melissa, I appreciate the good wishes. I honestly do. However, I'm afraid I must decline the offer to accept your bullying God...you know, the one who seems to be telling you, "OK, them heathen don't have to believe, but it's gonna be their *** later."
You really think that some Big Guy sits up there like John Gotti, keeping score and getting even? How petty. How small.
Then there's the tangle of misrepresentations and bad history. Nobody's, "pro-abortion;" the Catholic Church did a little more than merely remain idle while millions were murdered during WWII; Protestants also have a little to answer for, historically speaking.
And then there's the bad theology. Strictly speaking, salvation is generally classified by Christians as a gift from God--which is one of the reasons that it is generally thought, in Christianity, to be extremely presumptuous to be absolutely certain of anybody's damnation.
I wish you all the best. I honestly do. I just don't feel any particular need to threaten you with hellfire and brimstone, or burning copies of Robert Ingersoll's lectures.
J
Josh
Guest
hey everyone. hehe, of course you don't want to go to hell. SO CHOOSE JESUS!! He won't let you just choose Him and NEVER show up in your life. You start showing your FRUIT. Fruit of the Spirit of God in you is Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Gentleness, Self Control. You will always have something missing in your life without God. SEE? WITHOUT GOD!! God doesn't SIT AROUND ON SOME CHAIR in Heaven and just watch the world go by. He is HERE NOW. He KNOWS YOUR HEART. He WANTS to be a part of your life. You don't know how much you're LOVED by God do you?
And WHAT?!? You don't know what sin is? Read a Bible. It tells you exactly what sin is. You know the Ten Commandments, to break ONE is to break them all and you NOW stand CONDEMNED, NOW, not when you die, NOW. That is WHY Jesus is our sacrifice. For God Loved YOU so much, that sin had to be paid for, and only the Lamb of God(Jesus) can WASH YOUR SINS away!! The Bible says whatever is NOT IN FAITH, is sin. Not everyone has faith, not everyone will CHOOSE to live for Jesus, what will you choose? God cares NOTHING about "religion". It's a RELATIONSHIP with God, like you have with a spouse or a friend or other relatives. You don't want to be religous with them, you want to be with them. Jesus satisfies that. The Bible says whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Do you want to be saved? Unbelief is sin. Because how can you Worship God when you don't even think He is there? I know you don't like to be called bad or a sinner, but Jesus explained that the world hates Him because He tells the world that its ways are bad.
Why do you think Christians are hated so much? Why do you think they're made fun of so much nowadays? Jesus says this WILL happen. Jesus says that if the world hates you(the christian), keep in mind that it hated me first. But Jesus DESERVES Praise. He CREATED YOU. He wants to KNOW YOU. But you'll never enter the kingdom of God if you don't receive it like a littel child by SIMPLE FAITH. Like you would trust your parents for something when you were older, TRUST that Jesus has ALREADY PAID the PRICE for sin ON THE CROSS. The Bible says that THIS is how Jesus would die. YEARS BEFORE Jesus was born, many prophecies were made about Him, His Birth, Life, the fact that He would teach in Parables, His betrayal by a close friend for thirty coins, His death, the WAY He would die, His Ressurection. ALL FOR YOU, FOR LOVE!! He CHOSE to obey His Father's command. He CAME FROM GOD. He was with God in the beginning.
For those who "used" to be Christians. I mean, what happened? How can you be a TRUE CHRISTIAN and then fall away? Are you gonna let your heart be hardened until you don't even care about God anymore?
Proverbs 14
12 There is a way that seems right to a man,
but in the end it leads to death
What death? Separation FROM YOUR CREATOR. Who LOVES YOU. Does that mean anything to you? Remember, your CHOICE. You CAN BE FREE from Punishment. You don't have to burn, but must be willing to REPENT(turn from) of your sins and TRUST Jesus Christ as your MASTER, Lord, Savior. Then it will no longer be YOU who God sees when you sin, but JESUS. Jesus will be your MEDIATOR. When you sin, Jesus will go before God and be in your "defense". And it's so good, Jesus is coming back to reign on earth sometime in the future. Don't doubt that, BELIEVE it, why pass it up?
Confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and BELIEVE IN YOUR HEART that He has been RAISED from death, and YOU WILL BE SAVED!! Jesus says whoever confesses me before men, i too will confess before my Father. Trust!! Ask Jesus to come into your heart, He will if you want Him to.
And WHAT?!? You don't know what sin is? Read a Bible. It tells you exactly what sin is. You know the Ten Commandments, to break ONE is to break them all and you NOW stand CONDEMNED, NOW, not when you die, NOW. That is WHY Jesus is our sacrifice. For God Loved YOU so much, that sin had to be paid for, and only the Lamb of God(Jesus) can WASH YOUR SINS away!! The Bible says whatever is NOT IN FAITH, is sin. Not everyone has faith, not everyone will CHOOSE to live for Jesus, what will you choose? God cares NOTHING about "religion". It's a RELATIONSHIP with God, like you have with a spouse or a friend or other relatives. You don't want to be religous with them, you want to be with them. Jesus satisfies that. The Bible says whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Do you want to be saved? Unbelief is sin. Because how can you Worship God when you don't even think He is there? I know you don't like to be called bad or a sinner, but Jesus explained that the world hates Him because He tells the world that its ways are bad.
Why do you think Christians are hated so much? Why do you think they're made fun of so much nowadays? Jesus says this WILL happen. Jesus says that if the world hates you(the christian), keep in mind that it hated me first. But Jesus DESERVES Praise. He CREATED YOU. He wants to KNOW YOU. But you'll never enter the kingdom of God if you don't receive it like a littel child by SIMPLE FAITH. Like you would trust your parents for something when you were older, TRUST that Jesus has ALREADY PAID the PRICE for sin ON THE CROSS. The Bible says that THIS is how Jesus would die. YEARS BEFORE Jesus was born, many prophecies were made about Him, His Birth, Life, the fact that He would teach in Parables, His betrayal by a close friend for thirty coins, His death, the WAY He would die, His Ressurection. ALL FOR YOU, FOR LOVE!! He CHOSE to obey His Father's command. He CAME FROM GOD. He was with God in the beginning.
For those who "used" to be Christians. I mean, what happened? How can you be a TRUE CHRISTIAN and then fall away? Are you gonna let your heart be hardened until you don't even care about God anymore?
Proverbs 14
12 There is a way that seems right to a man,
but in the end it leads to death
What death? Separation FROM YOUR CREATOR. Who LOVES YOU. Does that mean anything to you? Remember, your CHOICE. You CAN BE FREE from Punishment. You don't have to burn, but must be willing to REPENT(turn from) of your sins and TRUST Jesus Christ as your MASTER, Lord, Savior. Then it will no longer be YOU who God sees when you sin, but JESUS. Jesus will be your MEDIATOR. When you sin, Jesus will go before God and be in your "defense". And it's so good, Jesus is coming back to reign on earth sometime in the future. Don't doubt that, BELIEVE it, why pass it up?
Confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and BELIEVE IN YOUR HEART that He has been RAISED from death, and YOU WILL BE SAVED!! Jesus says whoever confesses me before men, i too will confess before my Father. Trust!! Ask Jesus to come into your heart, He will if you want Him to.
OP
OP
Scout_379
Guest
I didn't even bother reading the post, I encourage others to do the same.
the constant use of the caps-lock hurts my brain a little bit.
Josh,
If you beleive in a God, or like being, why? And what proof have you seen or learned of its/His existence? What makes you beleive?
the constant use of the caps-lock hurts my brain a little bit.
Josh,
If you beleive in a God, or like being, why? And what proof have you seen or learned of its/His existence? What makes you beleive?
M
Melissa426
Guest
I think you are misinterpreting my position.rmcrobertson said:
I am not certain of your damnation.
I am not even certain of my own future.
My God is not a "bully." He is not keeping score. Does a parent stop loving a child or forbid him food, water, shelter, because the child is disobedient?
Of course not!
"Only those who do the will of the Father will enter the kingdom of heaven. .... Many will say, Lord, Lord, did we not [do all these things] in your name? And I will tell them plainly, "I never knew you. Away from me you evildoers.' "
That's not my opinion.
That is scriptural.
I am not saying I am right , only what I believe.
For all I know, you may be right. I might die and be nothing more that worm food. Greasy and too many carbs worm food, but worm food none the less.
But I have greater hope than that.
As for history, yeah, you are probably right. It's not my strongest suit. I probably did oversimplify things. But this is not a history lesson.
Peace,
Melissa
