Why Muslims cannot be good americans

[michaeledward]

Tez3, I think that the phrase 'Good American' is used to self-identify. "We" are good Americans, and "They" are not.

The speaker gets to decide who is inclusive, and who is exclusive. And, in an appropriate context, the language would only be used in a completely inclusive group. Those speaking and those hearing, would understand who was inclusive, and who was intended to be excluded.

In the case of the original post, 'Good Americans' are Christian, and the not good Americans are anyone of a different faith; although the post calls out followers of Islam specifically.

I am reminded of a popular 'Us/Them' situation. Stephen Colbert, a popular character on the Comedy Central cable television station, was interviewing a United States Congressman. This Congressman favored including the Christian 10 Commandments in the government frame-work (either printing them in the capital or displaying them in courtrooms). Mr. Colbert asked the Congressman to name the 10 Commandments, and as one might expect, the Congressman was unable to do so.

The act of calling for Governmental endorsment of the 10 Commandments was intended to put the Congressman in the "Us" group who believe this; most probably evangelical Christians.

Now, personally, I think people who want a governmental endorsement of the Ten Commandments are not good Americans. They do not understand that our country was founded with religious liberty as a fundamental ideal. An endorsement of a religion, is unAmerican. And that includes the phrases "One Nation, Under God", and "In God We Trust", in my opinion.

 

[Tez3]

Tez, it in no way was directed at you personally or in serious response anyone's contributions. I believe that's obvious. I was trying to add some levity concerning folks outside the USA debating what it takes to be an American.

Please don't ever attempt to lecture me on the military or how you feel you were press ganged into Afganistan.... it's insulting, condescending and completely off topic, and that's only for starters.

Parting advice - those who take themselves too seriously may, in the end, find others do not take them seriously at all.

Let's exchange "ignore list" entries and let the Forum move on. The actual topic here is too important to sidetrack with a personal spat.

Personal spat? Taking ourselves too seriousl Ah I see a joke?

I wasn't debating what it takes to be an American. I don't know what it's like to be an American that's why I was asking! I seriously wanted to know what Americans think being an good American is. I wasn't putting up for debate by me, I was asking a very simple question which I suspect may not have a simple answer.

Lecturing you about Afghanistan? Where did you get that idea from? Your country and mine are involved in a war, we are linked in this, what one does affects the other. So far I have lost 27 colleagues, people I actually worked with and knew along with 40 injuried so don't you ever tell me I am talking about being press ganged into Afghanistan.

To everyone else I apologise, all I wanted to do was understand the feelings and thoughts of people of a country I admire. I didn't realise asking a simple question about something I know nothing about in an attempt to understand people would be so offensive.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Theodore Roosevelt Advocates Americanism, 1915

... There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism. When I refer to hyphenated Americans, I do not refer to naturalized Americans. Some of the very best Americans I have ever known were naturalized Americans, Americans born abroad. But a hyphenated American is not an American at all. This is just as true of the man who puts "native" before the hyphen as of the man who puts German or Irish or English or French before the hyphen. Americanism is a matter of the spirit and of the soul. Our allegiance must be purely to the United States. We must unsparingly condemn any man who holds any other allegiance. But if he is heartily and singly loyal to this Republic, then no matter where he was born, he is just as good an American as any one else.

The one absolutely certain way of bringing this nation to ruin, of preventing all possibility of its continuing to be a nation at all, would be to permit it to become a tangle of squabbling nationalities, an intricate knot of German-Americans, Irish-Americans, English-Americans, French-Americans, Scandinavian-Americans or Italian-Americans, each preserving its separate nationality, each at heart feeling more sympathy with Europeans of that nationality, than with the other citizens of the American Republic. The men who do not become Americans and nothing else are hyphenated Americans; and there ought to be no room for them in this country. The man who calls himself an American citizen and who yet shows by his actions that he is primarily the citizen of a foreign land, plays a thoroughly mischievous part in the life of our body politic. He has no place here; and the sooner he returns to the land to which he feels his real heart-allegiance, the better it will be for every good American. There is no such thing as a hyphenated American who is a good American. The only man who is a good American is the man who is an American and nothing else.

For an American citizen to vote as a German-American, an Irish-American, or an English-American, is to be a traitor to American institutions; and those hyphenated Americans who terrorize American politicians by threats of the foreign vote are engaged in treason to the American Republic.

Americanization
The foreign-born population of this country wouldnt that be all of us? must be an Americanized population - no other kind can fight the battles of America either in war or peace. It must talk the language of its native-born fellow-citizens, it must possess American citizenship and American ideals. It must stand firm by its oath of allegiance in word and deed and must show that in very fact it has renounced allegiance to every prince, potentate, or foreign government. and dare I add religion? It must be maintained on an American standard of living so as to prevent labor disturbances in important plants and at critical times. None of these objects can be secured as long as we have immigrant colonies, ghettos, and immigrant sections, and above all they cannot be assured so long as we consider the immigrant only as an industrial asset. The immigrant must not be allowed to drift or to be put at the mercy of the exploiter. Our object is to not to imitate one of the older racial types, but to maintain a new American type and then to secure loyalty to this type. We cannot secure such loyalty unless we make this a country where men shall feel that they have justice and also where they shall feel that they are required to perform the duties imposed upon them. The policy of "Let alone" which we have hitherto pursued is thoroughly vicious from two stand-points. By this policy we have permitted the immigrants, and too often the native-born laborers as well, to suffer injustice. Moreover, by this policy we have failed to impress upon the immigrant and upon the native-born as well that they are expected to do justice as well as to receive justice, that they are expected to be heartily and actively and single-mindedly loyal to the flag no less than to benefit by living under it.

We cannot afford to continue to use hundreds of thousands of immigrants merely as industrial assets while they remain social outcasts and menaces any more than fifty years ago we could afford to keep the black man merely as an industrial asset and not as a human being. We cannot afford to build a big industrial plant and herd men and women about it without care for their welfare. We cannot afford to permit squalid overcrowding or the kind of living system which makes impossible the decencies and necessities of life. We cannot afford the low wage rates and the merely seasonal industries which mean the sacrifice of both individual and family life and morals to the industrial machinery. We cannot afford to leave American mines, munitions plants, and general resources in the hands of alien workmen, alien to America and even likely to be made hostile to America by machinations such as have recently been provided in the case of the two foreign embassies in Washington. We cannot afford to run the risk of having in time of war men working on our railways or working in our munition plants who would in the name of duty to their own foreign countries bring destruction to us. Recent events have shown us that incitements to sabotage and strikes are in the view of at least two of the great foreign powers of Europe within their definition of neutral practices. What would be done to us in the name of war if these things are done to us in the name of neutrality?

One America
All of us, no matter from what land our parents came, no matter in what way we may severally worship our Creator, must stand shoulder to shoulder in a united America for the elimination of race and religious prejudice. We must stand for a reign of equal justice to both big and small. We must insist on the maintenance of the American standard of living. We must stand for an adequate national control which shall secure a better training of our young men in time of peace, both for the work of peace and for the work of war. We must direct every national resource, material and spiritual, to the task not of shirking difficulties, but of training our people to overcome difficulties. Our aim must be, not to make life easy and soft, not to soften soul and body, but to fit us in virile fashion to do a great work for all mankind. This great work can only be done by a mighty democracy, with these qualities of soul, guided by those qualities of mind, which will both make it refuse to do injustice to any other nation, and also enable it to hold its own against aggression by any other nation. In our relations with the outside world, we must abhor wrongdoing, and disdain to commit it, and we must no less disdain the baseness of spirit which lamely submits to wrongdoing. Finally and most important of all, we must strive for the establishment within our own borders of that stern and lofty standard of personal and public neutrality which shall guarantee to each man his rights, and which shall insist in return upon the full performance by each man of his duties both to his neighbor and to the great nation whose flag must symbolize in the future as it has symbolized in the past the highest hopes of all mankind.

 

[Karatedrifter7]

Nah, thats not true. It depends on the person, plenty of good American Muslims out there. A sociopath is a sociopath no matter what color, creed, or belief system. Osama bin Laden is a bad man, but so is Dick Cheney!
Thats my two cents..

 

[Mr. E]

Can a good Muslim be a good American? I forwarded that question to a
friend who worked in Saudi Arabia for 20 years The following is his
forwarded reply:


I just posted to get insights and peoples opinions. I have Muslim and Arabic students. They don't have that attitude- but, they agreed that they were not supposd to have Christian friends and they were not to acknowledge any other faith.

The point I think you raise is that there is a war within Islam to define what a "good Muslim" is. I see there are people arguing that the title "good American" is somehow being used to create an "us vs them" attitude. Well, the same seems to be going on in Islam to a greater extent.

It is a very common tactic to accuse people of racism. You don't have to listen to the arguments of a racist.

But it is not a form of bigotery to point out that there are voices in Islam that echo what you originally posted. And their voices seem to be standing out more now.

Al sent me some PMs to let me know how he felt about certain things. He told me that his family left the old country to get away from the type of things Islam is now infamous for- things like honor killings, hatred against jews and christians and stuff that you expect from people living in a middle eastern dictatorship. But he left the religion when that version of Islam made its way to America and started becoming more of the norm than the exception.

So, there are Muslims that feel the way the OP's original message does. Since they feel they are doing the work of God, they are very keen on getting the truth as they know it out. The Muslims that just want to be left alone are not as driven as those that think they are doing God's work, so the message of the radicals is rising.

Have you seen the riots and violence in Europe that centers around young Muslims raised to think of themselves as not being European- but Muslim? The causes are varied, but they find a common cause through their religion. And the people calling the shots in the name of religion are not the typical, peaceful Muslims like most of us know.

What do you do about that? Instead of trying to play down and ignore the threat, ask yourself what is going to happen as these folks from other cultures with their own version of Islam take over the religion from within.

 

[Sukerkin]

That's a well posited extrapolation, Mr. E.

I agree in so far as ignoring a threat is a sure-fire of ensuring that it grows.

Sadly, most of the fuel for the Islamic fire has been provided externally. It's true that the extremist 'coal' was always there buried within the more peaceful whole but it's been fanned into conflagration by what has been done to the nations where this religion holds sway.

Anyhow, I re-iterate the sentiment of my previous comment that I can't believe that the populations of many countries are being hoodwinked again into a war that only serves the purposes of a few.

If there is a God, then he must be very disappointed in his creation and may be tempted to do something about it.

But as there most probably isn't, so ... KABOOM!

Welcome to the New Crusade/Jihad in the extra-bonus-damage Technological Era. You may have thought that the Enlightenment had brought us Rationalism at long last but it looks like taking personal responsibility for your morality is too much like hard work, so we'll revert to tribal primativism backed up by modern firepower.

If it sounds like I'm angry (not with anyone here personally I hasten to add) then that's because I am. In a rare case for me, I make no apology for it, as I feel quite justified in being miffed by the combined rulers of the world sacrificing our hard won advances on the altar's of their self-serving beliefs.

 

[Mr. E]

Sadly, most of the fuel for the Islamic fire has been provided externally. It's true that the extremist 'coal' was always there buried within the more peaceful whole but it's been fanned into conflagration by what has been done to the nations where this religion holds sway.

I have to disagree. It seems more like the external threat has been used as an excuse.

It is a matter of fact that many of the governments in the middle east take a lesson from Orwell when they seek to keep their populace in line with an external enemy to frighten them with. By wrapping themselves in the cloth of Islam and teaching in the schools that traditional jewish pasteries require the blood of a Muslim and that the Protocals of Zion are actual texts, they sowed a huge amount of resentment in their populaces.

This has been going on for decades. Most folks now living in that part of the world have been conditioned from the cradle to think that jews control the world through the puppet government of the US and UK.

It does not help that to insure support from the clerics, the House of Saud made a deal with one of the most rabid schools of thought in Islam- the Wahabists. If the Imams would leave them alone, the House of Saud would turn a blind eye to what they were saying about and doing to other faiths.

It is one thing to deal with real affronts against the religion. We can take steps to make up for past sins that really happened. But how can we right the wrong caused by all those Muslims killed to provide pastries for the jews?

And it is people from this area that are now moving out to other parts of the world and taking the lead in Islam. That is what frightens some of us. It is not the religion as a whole, but that the peaceful Muslims some of us know will be led by those that have nothing but hate for anything outside thier view of the world.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Just a thought, but doesn't the Bible and Torah agree with what is listed as being neigtive about Islam? Come to think of it, the points Alfy brought up aren't even relivent. He said that Muhammad created Islam to justify rape and pedifial. I think he has never read the Bible. If he did, he would have noticed that neither book says either practice is a no-no. Kinda refutes his claims.

But, what does the stupid pagan know, right?

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Personal spat? Taking ourselves too seriousl Ah I see a joke?

I wasn't debating what it takes to be an American. I don't know what it's like to be an American that's why I was asking! I seriously wanted to know what Americans think being an good American is. I wasn't putting up for debate by me, I was asking a very simple question which I suspect may not have a simple answer.

Lecturing you about Afghanistan? Where did you get that idea from? Your country and mine are involved in a war, we are linked in this, what one does affects the other. So far I have lost 27 colleagues, people I actually worked with and knew along with 40 injuried so don't you ever tell me I am talking about being press ganged into Afghanistan.

To everyone else I apologise, all I wanted to do was understand the feelings and thoughts of people of a country I admire. I didn't realise asking a simple question about something I know nothing about in an attempt to understand people would be so offensive.

I've had a couple hours running errands to think about this so I'll take a stab at it:

The topic of Americans' pride in their country had me flashing back to a scene in the Mel Gibson film "The Patriot"( I know what some think of both Mel and the film, and in large part I agree, but bear with me) :

In this scene, the son sees an unkempt, hopeless-looking militiaman with a prototypical American flag, dirty, full of holes, unrepaired, touching the ground and the guy doesn't give a ****. When the son picks it up and gives him a disapproving, questioning look, the old soldier just looks up and says: "It's a lost cause".

And that's part of it: from the time America as we know it was first conceptualized, we have *ALWAYS* been a lost cause, yet we've always come through. America was( and to an extent remains) an experimentwhere the balance of power as it exists( or is, on paper, supposed to exist) with the the government "of the people, by the people, for the people" with the power in the *people's* hands had never, within recent memory, if ever, been tried before. Such things as religious freedom, a free press or the right to bear arms were radical ideas at the time.we were untested, tiny, and STILL we grew to where we are now, and did it in, by comparison to other nations' histories, a blink of an eye. We had the revolution, we had a Civil War threaten to tear us apart and whose wounds have STILL never fully healed, we had a Great Depression, two World Wars, Korea, Vietnam, which once again sorely tested us when we were divided and looked to tear us apart, but didn't, and here we are now, at our latest "away match" and only just a couple years ago even *I* was at a point where I was wondering if this was "it"--if this was finally gonna be the situation America went into where it wouldn't come out the other end--on the one hand you had the Late Unpleasantness in the mideast, you had the extremely overpolarized lefties and righties too busy with the "us vs. Them" game to have anything useful to say, and basically too busy fighting amongst ourselves to pay ****in' attention to whatever else might be brewing.

But even THIS is subsiding, however gradually--we have a new general and a new strategy which is at long last giving us the results we should have had years ago,there is increasing talk even within the military of being able in the near future to begin drawing down troops. The writing is on the wall: America will soon be gone from there, and could likely even get to leave from a position of success and not of failure.

The point is here *I* was almost sure this 'd be what broke us, but it hasn't yet.

Even after 9/11, when we were stunned, hurt and didn't know up from down, black from white--we did what I never would have expected us to do --put *everything* aside and piulled together, there were flags all over every available space, people helped each other out for no other reason than it was the right thing to do. It lasted for six, seven good weeks( that was all the New York Times could take).

So on the outside looking in, other nations have laughed at us for what they see as "chest-thumping", excessive patriotism, but remember, it's that same quality we share that has helped us to stand when others might fall, stay together where others might break and run, keep going when any sane person would have given up (very overrated, this business of sanity).

We( or at least *I*) don't look on people of other countries as "less" for no better reason than being born in a different land; I feel truly blessed by my birthright--yes, we can be a proud people at times, but do we not have just cause? And yes, America is in a cycle of turbulence right now, and yes it has problems. But if you can't root for your home team every once in awhile maybe it's time you found another stadium, y'know?

That second question of what Americans think makes a "Good American", well, that's a fair bit tougher now......but what the hell, I've spent this much time in front of my keyboard, I'll take a stab at this too.

Between our cultural diversity and spirit of independence there really idsn't such a thing as a "typical American" we're just too big.

All I can give you is, based on my beliefs and by my attempt to live by them, what *I*, Andy Moynihan and nobody else, considers a "Good American":

*Someone who does not embrace political stances which run counter to the principles of the US Constitution--People who support interfering with freedom of speech, freesom of religion or the right to bear arms, for the three big examples, are people I cannot in good conscience ever refer to as "Good Americans".

*People who like to piss and whine about their "civil liberties" or how important their rights are, but who would never lift a finger or don a uniform to earn them, are not people who I could in good conscience ever refer to as "Good Americans".

*People who, when faced with a choice of what feels good, or what is right, consistently fail to choose what is right, are not people who I could in good conscience ever refer to as "Good Americans."

That's about it for me.


And yes, that I will be attacked about this is probably about as predictable as nightfall. That's OK. I been attacked all my life and I'm still standing.

 

[qi-tah]

So on the outside looking in, other nations have laughed at us for what they see as "chest-thumping", excessive patriotism, but remember, it's that same quality we share that has helped us to stand when others might fall, stay together where others might break and run, keep going when any sane person would have given up (very overrated, this business of sanity).

We( or at least *I*) don't look on people of other countries as "less" for no better reason than being born in a different land; I feel truly blessed by my birthright--yes, we can be a proud people at times, but do we not have just cause? And yes, America is in a cycle of turbulence right now, and yes it has problems. But if you can't root for your home team every once in awhile maybe it's time you found another stadium, y'know?

Umm... this talk of equating war and sport ("away matches" and "home team" etc) is something that i find quite disturbing. I'm guessing that you mean "stadium" to mean the USA, but in the context of yr previous comments it could be taken to mean the various theatres of war the US has been involved in. It certainly brought Iraq's current 2million+ war refugees (around 3.7 million if you count those forced to move to safer areas within Iraq - numbers from the UN High Comissioner for Refugees) uncomfortably to mind. At least in sport we leave the stadiums still standing at the cessation of play.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Umm... this talk of equating war and sport ("away matches" and "home team" etc) is something that i find quite disturbing. I'm guessing that you mean "stadium" to mean the USA, but in the context of yr previous comments it could be taken to mean the various theatres of war the US has been involved in.

It could be meant that way, but it wasn't. We'll have to chalk that up to my dry, clinical sense of humor rubbing someone not used to it the wrong way.( I'm a soldier. I know **** happens. And knowing that **** happens, I tend to use a more dry means of expression concerning violence as many professionals in the field have before me, which to an outside observer could be viewed as callousness but is more in the same vein as ambulance drivers getting by on black humor and so on. I do this same thing when discussing firearms training with students( "If after 2 rounds to the center mass the threat is still not interested in going down, more center mass shots will not convince them"....".....if your accuracy is lacking, any round, of any caliber will not do well in stopping the argument...") I find it gets the point across without terrifying or putting off those new to the business, but still alerts them to the serious nature of the business, and this is probably what ruffled you.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Everybody hates the "popular kid" in school. He/she is labled as arrogant, spoiled, stuck up etc, without anybody really getting to know him/her. Hes flashing around his money with his fancy new car that mommy and daddy got him, when in reality hes been saving and working for for years. She "thnks shes better than everybody else" when shes doing more charitable work than her detractors. Its easier to boost your self-esteem and make yourself feel better to go along with the stereotype because thats what everybody wants to believe then fit is to find out who the real person is. While everybody has their faults and its wrong to believe yourself "perfect", its also human nature to dislike those whom you feel inferior too. I believe there is a mix of that going on with Americans and those who seem to enjoy criticizing them at every turn.

 

[michaeledward]

Attempting to personify the American government, and its policies, into the actions, attitudes and beliefs of a single person is an extremely tortured analogy. It further reduces anyone who has thoughtful, but contrary opinions to the inclusive group, as petty and small.

This argument is similar to that made in the original post. It attempts to separate the world into two groups: ME and THEM. In this argument, the "THEM" in question are bickering, disgruntled and jealous.

Lastly to attempt to psychoanalyze all persons with statements and sentiments such as "it's also Human Nature to dislike ... " is wrapped in fallacy.

Such broad brush strokes may be effective in painting a house, but they are grossly inadequate in gaining understanding to the human dynamic.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

You'll recall that's exactly why I went to such pains to make clear that my thoughts represented only my views and could not be considered the American "average", because there isn't one. Tez asked for opinions, I gave mine. That was it.

 

[Tez3]

Andy, I understand your humour perfectly, it's what we call squaddie humour and civilians do find it a bit odd lol!

The reason I asked for opinions was to find out what real people thought. The Americans we see most of in Europe are the politicians, actors/celebrities and that sort of people. We watch American films and tv programmes, my favourites are CSI, Law and Order, West Wing, Simpsons, nearly everything Sci Fi and you'll agree these aren't things that make a country typical! The Americans I speak to a lot are MMA fighters who are intent on fighting, training while they're here so we don't have in-depth conversations about politics.

The above, I'm positive, is true in reverse. We aren't a country of David and Victoria Beckhams, many of us can't stand drinking tea and only a few speak with Cockney accents.

We get buzz words and sound bites from politicians ( who I firmly believe come from the same tribe located in a fantasy land!) I hear phrases like Middle America, the Bible belt and American middle classes and I have no idea what they mean. do I want to know? Yes! Not just because our two countries are linked in so many ways but because I care about people.

Do we in Britain hate Americans. NO! NO! AND NO! Ask ordinary people here, what is printed in the media isn't what people actually feel, it's what the media want us to feel. The majority of people are against the war in Iraq and Afghanistan and we place the blame for us being there firmly where it belongs, on Tony Blair. We didn't have to follow America into the war, France didn't but Blair took us in despite many misgivings. We blame our government.Our concerns and fears are for ALL troops out there because when push comes to shove we are are to paraphrase Kipling brothers and sisters under the skin.

America had a very nasty shock with 9/11 and it's people responded magnificently, they did the right thing that while paying homage to the dead they carried on their normal lives. It is this that makes the terrorists bombs futile, their campaigns pointless because the people will not be moved, they will stand firm against tyranny and they will not cower in fear. The British people learned this in the dark days of the Blitz when emerging from the Underground stations after night after night of heavy bombing, they raised their fists to Hitler and said it would take more than him to make them change their ways. they were right, and we carried this on for thirty odd years from 1969 when the IRA and the Provos tried to bomb us into agreeing with them until the recent peace agreements. Now we have the suicide bombers, it's business as usual.

Okay, we moan about Macdonalds, Paris Hilton, endless repeats of Friends, Dick Van Dykes 'cockney' accent in Mary Poppins and your big teams in the Olympics but and this is a huge but, you are a part of us,family. For the Scots and Irish you were the life saver in the Clearances and the Potato Famine. You joined us in two world wars, we may moan the old chesnuts about being 'over here, overpaid and oversexed' but ask your veterans and they will tell you the people welcomed them, the niggles then as now are minor, squabbling in the family, what matter is that deep down we know that hurt one you hurt all.

On 9/11 we cried with you, we felt as if we'd been attacked too, people raised money not because we felt you needed it so much as it was a way of showing we cared. The Muslim communities in Britain joined in with this, they didn't rejoice. Ignore our foolish politicians, our cynical press and tv media, they don't speak for us. We have quite a few tabloids here that love to sensationalise things, I will give you an example of how they 'bend' the truth:- in May a little English girl went missing in Portugal while on holiday with her family,after weeks of looking she hasn't been found. Now it seems as if there is forensic evidence that implicates the parents in the disappearance, this evidence was tested in the best forensic lab in Britain. The tabloid newspapers are screaming abuse at the Portugese police because they say the mother was offered a 'plea bargain' if she confesssed she killed her daughter and is being framed. There is real vitriol being printed against the Portugese, all of them! Yet only one English editor of an English language newspaper has pointed out that in Portugal, they have fixed sentences for crimes, a judge cannot change the sentence let along the police therefore plea bargains are unknown. A total distortion of the truth and a rather nasty anti Portugese campaign, complete with offensive cartoons and comments. If however you hear the people talking in the shops, on the buses outside schools etc you'll find that people are actually far more open minded and will wait for proper evidence before deciding what they think has gone on.


Now as I've been accused of taking myself too seriously I feel I should tell a joke or something but I can't think of any! Well none clean enough for here!

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Great post Tez. And I agree 100%, most of the impressions we all have about other cultures and nations is based on what we see in movies and the news. When all you see on the tube is how other european nations (for whom many of our relatives worked, fought and died to liberate) now enjoy bashing us, well its natural to take a "screw them" attitude.

My parents have a couple of friends who live in the outskirts of Manchester. They started out as pen pals and they now visit each other on a yearly/bi-yearly basis. Besides some small differences in accent and personality, we (US/Brit at least) seem much more alike then different in our daily routines, our beliefs and our hopes for the future. One difference I have noticed is that while we Americans may like to bad mouth our politicians, many of us do get touchy when other nations badmouth us. I was in the service (Army) as well, its similiar to when you may not like a squadmate personally, you will still jump to his defence if a Marine takes a poke at him in a bar. Perhaps part of it is that European nations have thousands of years of politics behind them, so much so that there is a bit less "Patriotism". We Americans only have a couple hundred years under our belts. Nobody really seems to care too much about the Brits treatment of the French during the 100 years war, but we still seem to have to answer for American treatment of the Native Americans, Slavery etc.

Just some rambling.

 

[Ray]

... He said that Muhammad created Islam to justify rape and pedifial. I think he has never read the Bible. If he did, he would have noticed that neither book says either practice is a no-no.

The Bible says the rape is a no-no.

 

[Big Don]

The plain and simple fact is: No one can tell what a bad person looks like, trying to do so only lets everyone see what a stupid person looks like.

 

[CuongNhuka]

The Bible says the rape is a no-no.

Really? Were? (Not flase curousity)

 

[Big Don]

Really? Were? (Not flase curousity)

Deuteronomy 22 verse 26, for one:25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the girl; she has committed no sin deserving death.