Why Muslims cannot be good americans

[Monadnock]

Heh. I bet it does! You don't happen to have a citation for that? I'd like to show that to a friend of mine...

A couple of posts back was the closest I found. You're not going to tell people to pay taxes because the Bible tells them so are you?

 

[qi-tah]

It's ludicrous in the 21st Century that we're recommitting the mistakes of the 12th - perhaps that's why my opinion keeps swinging between "There's no hope for mankind whilst he persists in believing in invisible, all-powerful, beings that created the universe for our benefit" and "Humanity will eventually come to his collective senses and realise the genetic truth that we are all one family".

EDIT: Not being racist here but I forgot with the last statement that it's actually not conclusively true - the Australian Aboriginies are, I think, a slightly different genus. Can anyone correct or elaborate on that?

Nope, all people living share the same genus, species and sub-species too - Homo sapiens sapiens. There is an interesting article here about current research investigating the "Out-of Africa" theory of a common genetic ancestery: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070509161829.htm

 

[Sukerkin]

Thanks qi.

I think I was faultily remembering a program on genetics I saw years ago, which talked of how certain skull formations indicated that the Aboriginies descended down a unique line. I only remember it dimly but the crucial point I seized on is that because of the isolation of Australia they missed the genetic mixing (with the Neanderthal for one) that occurred elsewhere.

I'll do a bit of research tonight to see what it was I was misinterpreting(unless someone would care to assist my 'lazy' gene and do it for me ).

 

[grydth]

I've been shot already- bad rep points for posting the email
so, I am just going to keep my mouth shut from now on.

Sad to see that happen to you - isn't it amazing that most of the negatiive reputation givers don't have the stones to enter the debate or often even sign their name? Are you going to let people of that ilk decide whether you can debate and discuss controversial issues?

On reflection, though, the title of the thread really bothers me. Who exactly decides and defines what a "good American" is? What agenda do they have? Upon research, one might find it even more questionable than that of the target group...

The times I have seen "good American" it has been either from right wing nuts who sound like they are defining "good German" in 1943, or from loony left wingers trying to impose the zombie lockstep of Politikal Korrectness upon us.

Framing our thoughts and discussions in the "good American" type molds is one reason why the USA as a society is falling apart. Whole groups being defamed and falsely grouped together as having general sinister beliefs. Once we could respectfully discuss and disagree about issues - now if you don't see it my way, you are not just wrong.... you're not even a good American...... and, maybe... you're even 'one of them'...

 

[Sukerkin]

Well said, Grydth - I think its time we put "1984" back on the school reading lists.

That might also have the beneficial side-effect that the creeping totalitarianism that seems to be seizing the world will be seen for what it is (whatever political 'sheet' it's hiding under).

 

[Makalakumu]

A couple of posts back was the closest I found. You're not going to tell people to pay taxes because the Bible tells them so are you?

No, but that would really make a funny shirt!

 

[heretic888]

On reflection, though, the title of the thread really bothers me. Who exactly decides and defines what a "good American" is? What agenda do they have? Upon research, one might find it even more questionable than that of the target group...

The times I have seen "good American" it has been either from right wing nuts who sound like they are defining "good German" in 1943, or from loony left wingers trying to impose the zombie lockstep of Politikal Korrectness upon us.

Framing our thoughts and discussions in the "good American" type molds is one reason why the USA as a society is falling apart. Whole groups being defamed and falsely grouped together as having general sinister beliefs. Once we could respectfully discuss and disagree about issues - now if you don't see it my way, you are not just wrong.... you're not even a good American...... and, maybe... you're even 'one of them'...

Quoted. For. Truth.

 

[michaeledward]

I left a negative reputation mark.

....

And, if I am not mistaken, with my reputation disabled, negative reputation given out has no impact on the reputation of the recipient.

A negative Reputation left for me says:

That is not true and I think you know it.

So, although I qualified my statement, and I signed the original negative Reputation, and I publically stated that I left the negative reputation here; I get scolded and zapped by someone who a) did not sign their negative rep, b) claims to know the extent of my knowlege and understanding, essentially calling me a liar.


My understanding, while self-acknowledged as limited, is based from this post. (And perhaps others)

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=725769&postcount=180

Plus a person's rep comment may show up as gray for reasons other than having less than 50 points...such as their reputation being disabled,

It seems to me that this board has been becoming less friendly of late.

 

[Makalakumu]

Mike - the Study is good at ramping up emotions on all sides. This is a direct result of the divided country we live in. Eventually, I think these opinions will stretch our society to the breaking point and we'll have an all out culture war.

Meanwhile, the manipulators will keep on manipulating and manipulating and manipulating...

Take a break, grab a cup of coffee and think about that.

 

[michaeledward]

The original post spreads a lie: that Senator Obama is Muslem. The original poster claims that he does not subscribe to the language, but continues to spread the lie. The negative rep that I left stated simply that the facts are wrong. Regardless of the original posters belief, it is not possible to un-ring a bell.

I tried, as best I could, without emotion, in post 2 of this thread, to correct the mistaken fact. There has been no apology, nor retraction of erroneous fact by the original poster.

To add insult to injury, someone accuses me of being a liar in the reputation area.



And, John, I don't think the "country" is divided. It is People, who hold prejudices. And people who try to enflame those prejudices. It is People who are trying to divide the world, between themselves and the 'Other'. Fifty years ago, the people who used these types of stories were blocking nine young Americans from attending school in Arkansas. That the subject of the story is now a Muslem instead of a dark-skinned American does not change how repugnant the propagation of the prejudice is.


And grydth - it has been my habit of late, when leaving negative reputation marks - which I continue to believe, do not impact negatively on recipients reputations (Mods, if you would like to correct my belief, I await) to sign them with my name.

 

[Makalakumu]

And, John, I don't think the "country" is divided. It is People, who hold prejudices. And people who try to enflame those prejudices. It is People who are trying to divide the world, between themselves and the 'Other'. Fifty years ago, the people who used these types of stories were blocking nine young Americans from attending school in Arkansas. That the subject of the story is now a Muslem instead of a dark-skinned American does not change how repugnant the propagation of the prejudice is.

Everyone has prejudices. They are taught to us like anything else. And I think that these can be manipulated like anything else. They are emotional responses that preclude any attempt at reason. So, when certain buttons are "pushed" people react.

Make no mistake, outright racism is being used to advance policy in this country. These "chain letters" are not the random ramblings of a bunch of uneducated country boys pounding on the keys like a bunch of apes. They are carefully crafted peices of propaganda.

And I have to wonder if the negative response and emotional reaction that people like you and I have for such things isn't part of this scheme also? These bi-polar emotional reactions certainly make it hard for people on both sides to share ideas and form any consensus...

 

[Gordon Nore]

Make no mistake, outright racism is being used to advance policy in this country. These "chain letters" are not the random ramblings of a bunch of uneducated country boys pounding on the keys like a bunch of apes. They are carefully crafted peices of propaganda.

And I have to wonder if the negative response and emotional reaction that people like you and I have for such things isn't part of this scheme also? These bi-polar emotional reactions certainly make it hard for people on both sides to share ideas and form any consensus...

Very well said. The proof is in this thread. We see division and a heightened state of emotions over an email that was cooked to created exactly those results. My Grandma, an immigrant with a sixth-grade education, was right -- Don't believe everything you read.

Getting back to the OP. My two cents worth on the 'friend who spent twenty years working in Saudi...' So what? I know people who lived their entire lives in any given country with a very limited understanding of its history, complexity, or values.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Very well said. The proof is in this thread. We see division and a heightened state of emotions over an email that was cooked to created exactly those results. My Grandma, an immigrant with a sixth-grade education, was right -- Don't believe everything you read.

Definately an important point: Do not believe everything you read. I know several very nice muslim's whom I am proud to also say are fantastic American citizens in my opinion. The major religion's of the world were written by men during a different time period and in reading them you can probably find a reason or an argument for any position that you may choose. They certainly are though provoking and yet sometimes incredibly contradictory and confusing.

 

[Gordon Nore]

Definately an important point: Do not believe everything you read. I know several very nice muslim's whom I am proud to also say are fantastic American citizens in my opinion. The major religion's of the world were written by men during a different time period and in reading them you can probably find a reason or an argument for any position that you may choose. They certainly are though provoking and yet sometimes incredibly contradictory and confusing.

Thanks, Brian. Any ideology -- be it religious, economic, or political -- looks pretty scary if viewed only from the point of view of its most extreme supporters. These are the views that are most likely to be published, and they are the reason why we don't have actual debates on many issues -- we have screaming matches.

 

[Logan]

Given how people in general are easily spooked, propagating propaganda like that would have people witch-hunting eventually, removing rights which people in America are very proud of having for each of its citizens.

There is nothing wrong with religion, just the way nutjobs interpret it. Individual beliefs are individual (*duh*), so blanket statements like this are just wrong on so many levels.

Don't let fear govern your life.

 

[Gordon Nore]

Given how people in general are easily spooked, propagating propaganda like that would have people witch-hunting eventually, removing rights which people in America are very proud of having for each of its citizens.

I feel the same way. On another board where I used to post, the was a member of the US military who used say that he hadn't fought all over the world to see rights taken away at home.

 

[Tez3]

Can I take this discusssion ever so slightly sideways, just a bit? the expression 'A Good American' is used a lot, on this forum, in print and in the media and I'm interested in what people think the concept is of being a good American? The title of this thread indicates that people think there can be 'good' and 'bad' Americans. Over in the UK I've never heard people use the expression a bad or good Briton, we may say unpatriotic or that's not British (we do have a bad tendency to say nothing), is that the same thing or is there a deeper meaning for Americans if so why?

Perhaps we can find out why Muslims or anyone else could be good Americans?

I think a lot of the time over here we, as I said, tend not to speak up when we should, we do tend to have a sort of 'suffer in silence' attitude and we've had all sorts of problems when people have tried to fly Union flags or even just English flags on their houses. I think Americans are more overtly patriotic than we are.They are more willingly to speak of love for their country, we just sort of humph and puff a bit before conceding any affection for 'the old girl'.

 

[grydth]

With all of our Commonwealth colleagues chiming in, we may have to reverse our Revolution - and next debate, " Can the British Be Good Americans" ? :angel:

 

[Tez3]

With all of our Commonwealth colleagues chiming in, we may have to reverse our Revolution - and next debate, " Can the British Be Good Americans" ? :angel:

I asked a perfectly reasonable question, a question that wasn't rascist or nasty and I get a flip reply? I suppose I could remind you that our troops are dying too in Iraq and Afghanistan where they went to support the American president's iniative but that would be a cheap shot. I'll just keep my nose out of your business then.

 

[grydth]

Tez, it in no way was directed at you personally or in serious response anyone's contributions. I believe that's obvious. I was trying to add some levity concerning folks outside the USA debating what it takes to be an American.

Please don't ever attempt to lecture me on the military or how you feel you were press ganged into Afganistan.... it's insulting, condescending and completely off topic, and that's only for starters.

Parting advice - those who take themselves too seriously may, in the end, find others do not take them seriously at all.

Let's exchange "ignore list" entries and let the Forum move on. The actual topic here is too important to sidetrack with a personal spat.