Phoenix44
Master of Arts
I'm still wondering where in the Quran it calls America "The Great Satan"
Why Muslims cannot be good americans
- Thread starter kuntawguro
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Ray
Master Black Belt
Of course the Koran doesn't. The United States, as a country did not exist at the time during which the prophet Mohammed (spelling?) received the recitation from the angel. At least it is not mentioned in the English translation that I own (as I understand it, a translation is not on equal footing with the Arabic original - it is an "interpretation." But I could be wrong.)
Hmmm.... I thought there were 3 different sub species. Maybe someone in forensics can shed some light on identification (a reflection of sub-species) based on skulls and bones. So I have heard anyway. Of course I could be wrong.
thardey
Master Black Belt
Well, I'll be glad to describe what the every day life of my culture is.
Please keep in mind, that the only British people I've ever really talked to about my culture was either in the Cayman Islands, (British West Indies, for those who may be curious), or on our honeymoon in Malta, where the most common question we got was, "Aren't you Americans? What are you doing here? Americans never come here! So, since the only really effective way to describe my culture is in reference to what I know of your culture, I will try to take a stab at it, and my apologies if I really screw it up. (Also, next spring we will be visiting Ireland and England, so maybe I'll get a better perspective on your culture then.)
So then, I live on the west coast, in a cultural region that describes itself as "The State of Jefferson". Don't look on a map, you won't find it. It's a combination of Southern Oregon, and Northern California. It's our way of separating ourselves from the larger cities, and the more politically liberal areas to the north and south of us. We also identify closely with Idaho and Montana, and probably secretly wish we could be more like them.
The age of the lumberjack and traders that settled this region is still fresh in our minds, and most people are here because they wanted to get out of wherever they were from. As a result we are an extremely individual people, proud of being able to take care of ourselves, (most people know the basics of how to fix their own plumbing, fix up their own house, and until computers took over, to fix their own cars.) We're really proud of that, and it shapes a lot of our political views.
As a result, typically our area doesn't like the U.N., doesn't like government interference, and we just want to be left alone. Because of that, sometimes we deliberately try to appear old-fashioned and dense. "Us dumb old country folk", is an image that we have, and we kinda like it that way. It gets people to leave us alone. We make fun of the French - not so much that they're wimpy or anything, it's that they work sooo hard to be sophisticated, but look down on our simple enjoyment of life.
Sometimes we'll even tell stories about bears in town, and Indians out hunting and such, just to make people think we're still stuck in the pioneer days. I mean, that stuff is true, we just leave out the "modern" details.
We wear jeans and t-shirts to work, in the winter we'll wear our "farm" coats (Carharts, if anyone else knows what those are.) to work, even if it's in a cubicle. I work in a restored Dairy barn, which has been remodeled and converted into an engineering office, and we're the envy of the other engineering companies in our town.
We're also pretty good with computers, love our triple-shot-mocha-lattes-with half-and-half espressos, (and that's a simple one) host our Shakespeare festivals, and 4th of July parades. We hunt, fish, hike, snowboard, golf, play football, etc.
But the thing is, that this is a small, small representation of America. There are really so many subcultures here that there's no way to really understand them all. Northern Oregon is totally different, and Oregon is different than Washington, and the Pacific Northwest (Oregon, Washington, Idaho) is different than the "West". And Southern California, well, there's some people who consider that it's own country, it's so different from all the rest. A "Good Californian" (whatever that means, I agree with Michael that it's mostly a way to define "Us" or "them".) Won't survive as a "Real Oregonian" (See comment about a "Good Californian".)
To take all of these subcultures and lump them into a category of "Good Americans" is way too simple. We have such a large cross-section of cultures here, I once actually had to be a translator between a lady from New York, and a gentleman from Texas! They literally couldn't understand each other's accents! What's polite in one state is considered extremely rude in another. In Oregon, we show respect by disagreeing with someone to their face. In some "American" cultures, that is extremely disrespectful.
There are cultures here that Muslims would fit quite comfortably in, there are cultures where they would be very uncomfortable. Also, which branch of Islam are we talking about?
Edited to add:
I understand that there are a ton of different sub-cultures in the U.K. (at least three different "nations" united). It's no different in the U.S., we just have a lot more geographical areas to fit even more sub-cultures into!
Nice stab at a thumbnail sketch, Thardey :tup:.
I can heavily identify with the 'accent translation' problem
.
Until the TV really took hold here in the 70's and 80's, accents in the UK were very diverse indeed. When I first flew the family nest and struck off on my own to the city of Stoke-on-Trent, as we were moving in a neighbour came out to say hello and generally have a nose at the disreputable looking bikers moving in to the area. We couldn't understand a word he said :lol:. Same thing for me with the Scottish caretaker at my first university.
Anyhow, we all got to understand each other and get along in the end, despite our differences. A small scale lesson for the larger issue perhaps.
I can heavily identify with the 'accent translation' problem
. Until the TV really took hold here in the 70's and 80's, accents in the UK were very diverse indeed. When I first flew the family nest and struck off on my own to the city of Stoke-on-Trent, as we were moving in a neighbour came out to say hello and generally have a nose at the disreputable looking bikers moving in to the area. We couldn't understand a word he said :lol:. Same thing for me with the Scottish caretaker at my first university.
Anyhow, we all got to understand each other and get along in the end, despite our differences. A small scale lesson for the larger issue perhaps.
CuongNhuka
Senior Master
Not subspecies, just slight genetic differnces. "negroid" (IE, black) have a slopped mandable. There are some others, I just cann't remember what all.
The same principle is seen in all animals that have wide ranges. If you have a bunny in where-ever you live, and it is beneficial to be white, your bunnies babies will be white, after a few generations. If I have one from the exact same species, and it is beneficial to be brown, they will be brown after a few generations.
Now, if they are kept isolated for long enough (like a few hundred years) these differnces will slowly grow greater. But, it will take thousands of years for them to be differnit species. It will also require very big differnces in what they encounter (such as climate and predators), or selective breeding.
Is that a good basic guide?
Thardey what a brilliant description of where you live! Thank you! I agree totally with what you said about people. In the UK there are loads of subcultures too, the way you live sounds very like the way things are where I live in the Yorkshire Dales. Cities of course are always different but even they are different from each other. Newcastle is very different from liverpool and both are defferent from Manchester. I know France very well too and the same can be said for them, people from Provence prefer to be called Provencal rather than French they also have their own language. The people around Strasberg also speak their own language and are more Germanic than French. Everyone dislikes Parisians though lol!
The phrase 'knowledge dispels fear' comes to mind here, the more we know about each other the more we find we have things in common and the morewe realise that the easier it is to accept and even enjoy the differences between us. I tend to think our first loyalties after that to our families, are with our local area rather than a country. I think we can be patriotic to that country but it's the place we live in, where our hearts are that comes first. In a time of war I think it's that and the people close to us we fight for rather than America or Great Britain or France. We fight for our freedom and our way of life.
We have a lot of Muslims here and through the Empire have had a long exposure to Islam. I think that it's extremists we need to worry about, not just Muslim ones, all extremists. They have an agenda that they follow regardless of who suffers. The Troubles in Northern Ireland are well known to many but would it surprise you to know little of it was about religion and freedom and a lot to do with gangs, drugs and criminal activity? I'm afraid that's the hard truth about it and there was nothing romantic or heroic about many of the 'freedom fighters'.
Can we carry on exploring our different cultures and differences please? It's fascinating and hopefully we'll understand each other that bit better!
The phrase 'knowledge dispels fear' comes to mind here, the more we know about each other the more we find we have things in common and the morewe realise that the easier it is to accept and even enjoy the differences between us. I tend to think our first loyalties after that to our families, are with our local area rather than a country. I think we can be patriotic to that country but it's the place we live in, where our hearts are that comes first. In a time of war I think it's that and the people close to us we fight for rather than America or Great Britain or France. We fight for our freedom and our way of life.
We have a lot of Muslims here and through the Empire have had a long exposure to Islam. I think that it's extremists we need to worry about, not just Muslim ones, all extremists. They have an agenda that they follow regardless of who suffers. The Troubles in Northern Ireland are well known to many but would it surprise you to know little of it was about religion and freedom and a lot to do with gangs, drugs and criminal activity? I'm afraid that's the hard truth about it and there was nothing romantic or heroic about many of the 'freedom fighters'.
Can we carry on exploring our different cultures and differences please? It's fascinating and hopefully we'll understand each other that bit better!
FieldDiscipline
2nd Black Belt
Thank goodness!
I think this is certainly true in battle. I know you know people who will confirm this. Its the ideals that you get you there, and loyalty to your friends that gets you to do the impossible and the incredible.
Cracking post Tez, cant rep you again yet...
P.S. the french fight?
Thank goodness!
I think this is certainly true in battle. I know you know people who will confirm this. Its the ideals that you get you there, and loyalty to your friends that gets you to do the impossible and the incredible.
Cracking post Tez, cant rep you again yet...
P.S. the french fight?
LOL! Well the Provencals do! France is like the Uk in that it has different countires in it that were forcibly joined together, the people in the south of the country were treated appallingly by the northerners, there were massacres such as the one where they killed all the Cathars. Incidentally France has a high population of Muslims dating back from their colonial days. The French Muslims have a lot to feel aggrieved about as they were treated very badly and are still classed as second rate citizens. A few years back my daughter and her friend came with us on holiday to Provence where we have a caravan in Port Grimaud, they were both about 17 and they made friends with the young people in the caravan next to us, as young people do, there were some lads and some girls who had a separate caravan. They'd go off to the beach together, come back listen to music and eat then go out for the night. They were polite and respectful to us, they were nice to the girls and they had fun together but oh the looks and comments from our other French neighbours! The group were Tunisians who now lived in Lyon. One evening the lads were messing around with each other, bit noisy but they were funny then security guards turned up and started getting heavy with them, they said they'd had a complaint they were fighting. I had to get in there and persuade them it was alright, it got a bit physical at one point. They lads said it was a common occurance for them. Another time we were at a fun fair and there were some ladies dressed in Muslim clothes but not veiled who were spat at by a man walking by who called them filthy Arabs. Being a Muslim in France is hard. I don't believe Germany treats them much better, when I lived there there wre a great many Turks who were welcomed to do all the dirty jobs but not welcomed into society as such.
In the UK we have had a greater and longer exposure to Islam, in the days of the Raj the Muslim leaders were preferred to the others by the British as people they could deal with and understand.The British were fighting in the now Afghanistan in the 19th century, lost then too.
Much if not all of the problems in the Middle East date back to when it was carved up by non Muslim non locals (not all in the Middle East are Arabs, the Iranians aren't for example) making unnatural borders and making royal families to sit on new thrones and rule new countries.We are reaping what we sowed in the days of colonialism.
FieldDiscipline
2nd Black Belt
Definately. Iraq is THE case in point. What a miss match that is.
CuongNhuka
Senior Master
Actually, France nearly took over the world about three times. Under Charlemenge (sp), Napleon, and during the Colonial era. Granted they never took over as much as Britian, but they were still one of the big ones. France has also fought in Korea, Vietnam (not when we were though), and they have sent troops during both Gulf Wars. Which means they fight, but not very well.
Vietnam was France's fault but they had the sense not get into a war. As I said France is the collective word for the country but there's actually a few countries in there, I think many would be independant if they could. I know the Basques ( Basques aren't just in Spain), Provencals, Bretons would. When the French want soldiering done they send the Legion D'Etranger in, they fight like devils. France had many colonies in the Far East and also in North Africa, after the first World War the Middle East was carved up and it's this that is causing the problems now. Incidentally Ethiopia was an Italian colony and suffered badly under Mussolini enduring massacres and poverty from which they haven't recovered.
Someone mentioned before that they felt America was still answering for slavery and the treatment of the Native Americans. I think it's not so much that as that things our forefathers have done have come back to haunt us. In Scotland the Highland Clearances still cause anger and they were in the 18th century but they changed the face of Scotland and changed the way people thought of Scotland making it a subserviant culture to England for a long time. The same with Wales, it's only relatively recently that Welsh has been allowed to been spoken and children aren't beaten for speaking it in school.These things burn deeply into people.
In Europe the Second War War has left deep scars, even today the Dutch have little love for the Germans. France can still tear itself apart by reminders of it's Occupation. The Germans themselves carry the guilt and don't know how to deal with it now even after all these years. Are we surprised then that Muslims are disaffected? In 1919 The Balfour Declaration gave Jews a home but reneged on it, in Palestine then just liberated from Turkish rule (The Turks were hated by all for their cruelty as the rulers, this is echoed in the Balkans), countries were made up and given rulers from different tribes as rewards from the Allies. Borders were made regardless of tribal borders and affiliations. This was storing up trouble for the future...us.
The situation in the Middle East is far more complicated than the Muslims wanting to convert everyone and take over the world. To condemn every Muslim is foolish and pointless. It overlooks the fact there like Christianity and Judaism there are different 'types', different beliefs under the banner of Islam. It's also complicated by the West's need for oil, if there was no oil in the Middle East or we didn't need it so much can anyone honestly say we'd be in the situation we are now?
CuongNhuka
Senior Master
Good hypothetical. If it wasn't for the West's invasion of the Middle East, I have a feeling the two regions would indiffernit to each other.
The west's invasion of the middle east? Are you referring to the current conflict spanning since 9/11? I think the roots of the current problem between extreme Islamism and the 'West' are much deeper than this. And stem many decades back, it is no recent conflict. Correct me if I'm wrong...
A people need a state, otherwise it is in conflict. The state makes the nation, and it will work for the common good of the people. The people will fight for the state, and live by its laws and regulations. A 'good' citizen believes in the sovereignty of the state and lives to advance the interests of their country. For me, I live my life, in my country, and try to add value to my country. I am proud to be Australian. It is love for my country and my way of life- over any other- that makes me a 'good' Australian.
Now I DON'T believe that one has to be born Australian to be a good Australian. My grandparents immigrated from Italy after WW2. They came here, adapted to life, worked hard, and lived by the laws of this country. They were also 'good Australians'. I have known Muslims in Australia, and have an Iranian born friend. A very good friend. He is a good Australian too. Still proud of his roots, but he has adapted well.
I am not stupid- I do see there being a problem in many Western countries- where some percentage (it is hard to quantify) of the muslim community will not adapt. They go as far as to wish harm upon their adopted countries. This to me is a 'bad' Australian- or whatever country they have adopted. However- it is not all. It is a percentage. Can muslims be good Australians? By my standards, that I have layed out in this post, YES. Now I don't know if Muslims can be good Americans? But I presume that a good American can be defined the same way a good Australian, or a good Briton can be defined? Correct me if I'm wrong?
I have met a lot of expat Brits living over here in Australia, that actually call themselves Aussie. On numerous occasions, I have heard an accent that is oh so English (Tez- I reckon the English accent is bloody awesome). I will proceed to ask them which part of England they are from- only to be told that they are Aussie now. If this is their stance, and they live, work, socialize, and become one of us- then they are Aussie. So long as their intentions lay in the wellbeing of the members of my beautiful country and our way of life.
The risk of alienating the whole of Islam through racism and bigotry, only serves to give the extreme Islamists what they want. To create an incompatibility between 'us' and 'them'- forcing all of Islam under an extreme banner. The same applies to ourselves. There are forces within our own countries that aim to drive an image of incompatibility between 'us' and 'them'.
My 2 cents....
A people need a state, otherwise it is in conflict. The state makes the nation, and it will work for the common good of the people. The people will fight for the state, and live by its laws and regulations. A 'good' citizen believes in the sovereignty of the state and lives to advance the interests of their country. For me, I live my life, in my country, and try to add value to my country. I am proud to be Australian. It is love for my country and my way of life- over any other- that makes me a 'good' Australian.
Now I DON'T believe that one has to be born Australian to be a good Australian. My grandparents immigrated from Italy after WW2. They came here, adapted to life, worked hard, and lived by the laws of this country. They were also 'good Australians'. I have known Muslims in Australia, and have an Iranian born friend. A very good friend. He is a good Australian too. Still proud of his roots, but he has adapted well.
I am not stupid- I do see there being a problem in many Western countries- where some percentage (it is hard to quantify) of the muslim community will not adapt. They go as far as to wish harm upon their adopted countries. This to me is a 'bad' Australian- or whatever country they have adopted. However- it is not all. It is a percentage. Can muslims be good Australians? By my standards, that I have layed out in this post, YES. Now I don't know if Muslims can be good Americans? But I presume that a good American can be defined the same way a good Australian, or a good Briton can be defined? Correct me if I'm wrong?
I have met a lot of expat Brits living over here in Australia, that actually call themselves Aussie. On numerous occasions, I have heard an accent that is oh so English (Tez- I reckon the English accent is bloody awesome). I will proceed to ask them which part of England they are from- only to be told that they are Aussie now. If this is their stance, and they live, work, socialize, and become one of us- then they are Aussie. So long as their intentions lay in the wellbeing of the members of my beautiful country and our way of life.
The risk of alienating the whole of Islam through racism and bigotry, only serves to give the extreme Islamists what they want. To create an incompatibility between 'us' and 'them'- forcing all of Islam under an extreme banner. The same applies to ourselves. There are forces within our own countries that aim to drive an image of incompatibility between 'us' and 'them'.
My 2 cents....
The Rep Gnomes forbid me from giving Tez a little buffing (ooh err, nurse !) for her marvellous post above, so it's the embarassment of public accolade for you, madam :rei: .
To further elaborate a little on the general point of how 'blood feuds' get going and how everyone plays their part in them in one way or another, I'd like to turn the spotlight away from the Muslims to put aside the present day emotional baggage of the central issue.
To misquote a line from the Last Samurai, nations (or religions) , like men, sometimes have a bad reputation they do not deserve. The French had the misfortune to have appalling leadership at a crucial turning point in the 20th Century and compounded this with active collaberation with the invaders when all was not yet lost. Since then, how everything they do is viewed is tinted by the filter of those events.
I am not immune to this prejudice. In large part I learned it at my grandfathers knee as he told me how French people at Dunkirk were abusing the BEF soldiers and waving in and cheering the German fighters as they straffed the beaches. Now this may be an apocryphal story but he was there and something forever condemned the French in his eyes and this passed on to me who was not there and who had never met a French person. Okay, this example is not perfect as many of we Britons have a centuries deep dislike of the French (Remember Agincourt! Trafalgar forever!) but the drier history I learned from books did not have the same impact on me as the words of my grandfather.
The principle I'm driving at is that I had never met a French person and had certainly never been wronged by one and yet even now one of those spiteful, racist, Francophobe jokes makes me laugh ("For sale, unused French rifle ... only dropped once!"), primarily because of something I was told happened. If I can pick up a prejudice like that so easily, how much easier is it for someone to tar a whole nation or a whole religion with the same brush if they have suffered some personal harm because of a member of that nation or religion?
It's in our nature to do it, it seems, but it is something we must fight if we ever want to have a peaceful world to live in.
Of course, it does work the other way too. My other grandfather fought in Italy (amongst many other places) and wouldn't hear a bad word said about Indians, regailing me with stories of their bravery at Monte Cassino. From that, despite incidents of racially based rudeness and hostility to me from Indian youths, I've managed to avoid being prejudiced against our Indian/Pakistani residents because my grandafathers tales of courage impressed me so.
As ever, I'm blundering about trying to get to my final point - that is that prejudice that causes bad decisions is something we can do something about at an individual level but generally only if the 'message' is gotten across when someone is young. So, in my case, no matter what I learn and how much I try, I have an automatic anti-French and pro-Indian reaction that I'm stuck with. Of course, when you actually meet someone, then it's a whole different ballgame as you then start to judge someone on who they are rather than what they are.
!) for her marvellous post above, so it's the embarassment of public accolade for you, madam :rei: .To further elaborate a little on the general point of how 'blood feuds' get going and how everyone plays their part in them in one way or another, I'd like to turn the spotlight away from the Muslims to put aside the present day emotional baggage of the central issue.
To misquote a line from the Last Samurai, nations (or religions) , like men, sometimes have a bad reputation they do not deserve. The French had the misfortune to have appalling leadership at a crucial turning point in the 20th Century and compounded this with active collaberation with the invaders when all was not yet lost. Since then, how everything they do is viewed is tinted by the filter of those events.
I am not immune to this prejudice. In large part I learned it at my grandfathers knee as he told me how French people at Dunkirk were abusing the BEF soldiers and waving in and cheering the German fighters as they straffed the beaches. Now this may be an apocryphal story but he was there and something forever condemned the French in his eyes and this passed on to me who was not there and who had never met a French person. Okay, this example is not perfect as many of we Britons have a centuries deep dislike of the French (Remember Agincourt! Trafalgar forever!
) but the drier history I learned from books did not have the same impact on me as the words of my grandfather.The principle I'm driving at is that I had never met a French person and had certainly never been wronged by one and yet even now one of those spiteful, racist, Francophobe jokes makes me laugh ("For sale, unused French rifle ... only dropped once!"), primarily because of something I was told happened. If I can pick up a prejudice like that so easily, how much easier is it for someone to tar a whole nation or a whole religion with the same brush if they have suffered some personal harm because of a member of that nation or religion?
It's in our nature to do it, it seems, but it is something we must fight if we ever want to have a peaceful world to live in.
Of course, it does work the other way too. My other grandfather fought in Italy (amongst many other places) and wouldn't hear a bad word said about Indians, regailing me with stories of their bravery at Monte Cassino. From that, despite incidents of racially based rudeness and hostility to me from Indian youths, I've managed to avoid being prejudiced against our Indian/Pakistani residents because my grandafathers tales of courage impressed me so.
As ever, I'm blundering about trying to get to my final point - that is that prejudice that causes bad decisions is something we can do something about at an individual level but generally only if the 'message' is gotten across when someone is young. So, in my case, no matter what I learn and how much I try, I have an automatic anti-French and pro-Indian reaction that I'm stuck with. Of course, when you actually meet someone, then it's a whole different ballgame as you then start to judge someone on who they are rather than what they are.
FieldDiscipline
2nd Black Belt
I've made a right mess of this here post.
Sorry!
Sorry!
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