Practical Application of the Double-Knife-Hand Block

[skribs]

How does it get there? What does it do while it is traveling to that position? I don't do TKD; I don't know this particular form or technique... but that's where I'd start in analyzing an unusual movement during any form or technique. Answer those questions, and we just might discover why it is going there. And, if we don't -- the next question is what does it do afterwards? How does it move from that solar plexus position to whatever it does next?

From a back stance, your rear hand (the one we're focusing on right now) is held straight behind you, palm down, and it circles away from your body and back in to your solar plexus, twisting to be held palm-up.

At 1:42 this is the technique.

You need to do some research into the actual terminology then.
It is actually call uke and the total of the uke techniques are known as uke waza. Uke actually is a receiving action but it's closest translation to English is to stop hence Block.

Uke waza certainly can be used to block punches, kicks and strikes but they are, in fact, much more versatile techniques. To receive denotes one clear a limb, to off-balance, to set up for a strike or throw, or to lock a joint once a limb has been seized. In short, uke waza are not just for blocking and the uke waze movements are to be used in a multitude of applications.

Also movement and position in Kata is working to a precise position where in down and dirty action of fighting getting to a particular position precisely as in Kata may never happen.

Is the same terminology lesson true of the Korean word for Makki?

My experience with kata is that they are exaggerated or precise versions of techniques that tend to get a little messy in a fight, but that there should be an understanding of what it is that you are doing.

 

[MI_martialist]

There is a lot written, and I scanned most of it. The issues are, if Kata were created without martial application in mind, it is hard to find true martial application unless you know how, when, and where to look. As for the "meta" argument, and focusing on the "block" what if I told you that a "block" is a mindset and not a "technique"? When I "block" do I not strike what is striking? I am literally attacking the attack, so I never block, I always attack...so, what is a knife hand block?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

if Kata were created without martial application in mind, it is hard to find true martial application unless you know how, when, and where to look. ...

A: Dear master, When you did that form, there was a move that you moved your left hand in front of your face. What was the application that you intend to teach us?
B: Application? There was a bee that tried to sting me. I just move my hand to get ride of it.
A: ...

 

[MI_martialist]

A: Dear master, When you did that form, there was a move that you moved your left hand in front of your face. What was the application that you intend to teach us?
B: Application? There was a bee that tried to sting me. I just move my hand to get ride of it.
A: ...

So, is it by happenstance? Is it that there is none intended? I am confused...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So, is it by happenstance? Is it that there is none intended? I am confused...

Old saying said, "If you always believe in book, it's better that there exist no book."

Instead of trying to figure out the form creator's intention, you should look at what you need. You then decide whether the information in a form can meet your need or not.

There are so many books out there. Read the books that you like. Don't waste time on those books that you don't like.

 

[MI_martialist]

Old saying said, "If you always believe in book, it's better that there exist no book."

Instead of trying to figure out the form creator's intention, you should look at what you need. You then decide whether the information in a form can meet your need or not.

 

[MI_martialist]

Old saying said, "If you always believe in book, it's better that there exist no book."

Instead of trying to figure out the form creator's intention, you should look at what you need. You then decide whether the information in a form can meet your need or not.

There are so many books out there. Read the books that you like. Don't waste time on those books that you don't like.

Umm...ok...I may be a bit too binary to really get your reference, but that's ok. If forms were put together for form sake, then if you train forms with the same approach, then finding true martial application is very difficult. I go back to, what is the "double knife hand block"? Is it the shoulder movement, the base, the hand position, the trajectory, both, one then the other, focus on one, which part of the movement, are the feet moving, or is it a static posture at the end that is being analyzed? If it is a block, where is the attack, what kinds of attacks...that is why bunkai is so important...the analysis of movement so application is revealed.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, you are asking about keeping a hand pressed to your solar plexus as opposed to letting it float an inch or two away.

That is just aesthetics. There's no functional difference between the two. .

Opinions vary. If your hand is against your body and there is impact to that hand the force is transferred t the body to a much greater extent than if your hand is a few inches away and can absorb some force before it contacts your body.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I've seen that video before and I completely disagree with many of his points, .

I disagree with many points as well. I.E. anytime anyone says something like "it's really this, and not that" I disagree. Sometimes "A punch is just a punch....." (Bruce Lee) .
I often tell people "I am not telling you what to think.... I am telling you to think."

 

[Danny T]

.
Is the same terminology lesson true of the Korean word for Makki?

My experience with kata is that they are exaggerated or precise versions of techniques that tend to get a little messy in a fight, but that there should be an understanding of what it is that you are doing.

I'm don't know but I am of the understanding that General Choi was a second degree in Shotokan karate when he developed TKD and it greatly influenced his development of TKD in that many of the forms are quite similar yet wanting to distinguish TKD as being a different art and with a stronger emphasis on kicking. However, much is based on the Shotokan influence. But I don't know how specific it translates languistically.

 

[skribs]

Instead of trying to figure out the form creator's intention, you should look at what you need. You then decide whether the information in a form can meet your need or not.

There are so many books out there. Read the books that you like. Don't waste time on those books that you don't like.

I'd like to understand the intention before I decide my opinion of it. If I threw out everything I didn't instantly agree with or understand I'd barely know anything.

Opinions vary. If your hand is against your body and there is impact to that hand the force is transferred t the body to a much greater extent than if your hand is a few inches away and can absorb some force before it contacts your body.

This was one of my trepidations in my OP.

I disagree with many points as well. I.E. anytime anyone says something like "it's really this, and not that" I disagree. Sometimes "A punch is just a punch....." (Bruce Lee) .
I often tell people "I am not telling you what to think.... I am telling you to think."

Yes. Big difference between "it can be this" and "it IS this." I get that I was doing that in this thread, but with a specific purpose in mind.

There's not a whole lot of analysis in the forms in Taekwondo, from what I can understand. Most of what I've found online has been Karate Bunkai, and not Taekwondo analysis. Or maybe I'm just not searching the right word. With that said, some of the best videos I've seen have had the "popular interpretation" and the "hidden extras." The popular interpretation is a literal translation of what the technique is. The "hidden extras" are variations to the technique you can use, or variable applications of a similar movement.

This is the mindset I had going into this. That there is an expected primary use of the specific movement we're training, and there are lots of variations of that movement or application that can be learned or applied, but I still want to understand it in it's primary use.

 

[DaveB]

This is the problem I have, and the reason for the question. It exists in both the Karate and Taekwondo katas/poomsae. Both call it a block, so the block must be at least one application for the technique. But I'm struggling to find why this is a preferred position for your off-hand in a blocking application.

That's because you're not listening.

If a block is only one application that means that the movement has multiple uses.
It means that the movement was constructed to capture multiple applications.

That's why it is where it is: in order to be useful within a certain range of applications.

That, and the positioning advantages I laid out for close quarter application are the answer to the question you asked.

What else are you looking for?

 

[skribs]

That's because you're not listening.

If a block is only one application that means that the movement has multiple uses.
It means that the movement was constructed to capture multiple applications.

That's why it is where it is: in order to be useful within a certain range of applications.

That, and the positioning advantages I laid out for close quarter application are the answer to the question you asked.

What else are you looking for?

Let's say I have a soup serving spoon with slots in it. Now, this spoon can be used to serve pasta, it can be used to scoop items like vegetables or tater tots, but it doesn't exactly work as a soup spoon because it drains all the broth when you try to serve it. If someone asks "why do you call this a soup spoon?" do I say "well, it can do a lot of other things, it's a very useful spoon." Or do I say "you're right, I should call this a salad spoon."

I am specifically trying to understand this application of the technique. I am specifically trying to understand why the motion to reach the position of the double-knife-hand block is advantageous over that of a single knife-hand block, in this particular context. I don't care about the other contexts, because I already understand them (or at least, some of them). I specifically want to address this one. @Jaeimseu , @wab25 , and @WaterGal were working with me on Page 2 to help me understand.

Knowing that a similar motion can be used for other things doesn't help understand how the motion can be used for this thing. Looking at this particular application, as those I mentioned helped me with on Page 2, the conclusion I have come to is that it is similar to putting your hand tight at your side, except in a more central location which opens up some combinations better - namely anything that will chamber across your body. So a punch is going to be better for your hip, but you might flow into a backfist easier from the solar plexus. Yesterday whenever I had a spare moment on the mat, I was playing around with different combinations and how they flow from the double-knife-hand vs. from the single-knife-hand, and I have a better understanding of this application of the technique now.

So what else was I looking for? I was looking for the analysis that was largely conducted in Page 2 of this thread. A discussion on this application and how the technique can work in this application. What else am I looking for now? Well, now I want to move on to the next piece I don't understand and tackle it.

The really funny thing is you say it's because I'm "not listening", but I was listening to answers that answered the question I was asking. I was specifically choosing to not listen to answers that were rabbit trail discussions of related topics.

 

[Buka]

I'm curious what the Instructors in your school answered when you asked them.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If I threw out everything I didn't instantly agree with or understand I'd barely know anything.

You can always judge by your "common sense".

Instead of trying to figure out why someone had created a form in a certain way, you can modify a form into the way that you can understand and use.

If you want to protect your

- face against punch, you will put your back hand higher.
- body against kick, you will put your back hand lower.

If you want to use your back hand to

- punch, you will put your back closer to your body.
- grab, you will put your back away from your body.

Where you want to put your back hand is up to you. It's not up to the form creator.

 

[skribs]

You can always judge by your "common sense".

Instead of trying to figure out why someone had created a form in a certain way, you can modify a form into the way that you can understand and use.

If you want to protect your

- face against punch, you will put your back hand higher.
- body against kick, you will put your back hand lower.

If you want to use your back hand to

- punch, you will put your back closer to your body.
- grab, you will put your back away from your body.

Where you want to put your back hand is up to you. It's not up to the form creator.

It would be irresponsible of me to throw out what I don't understand based on the fact I don't understand it.

If I do understand it and see better ways of accomplishing the same goal, then that's a different story.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I am specifically trying to understand why the motion to reach the position of the double-knife-hand block is advantageous over that of a single knife-hand block, in this particular context.

My simple answer can be:

- The leading arm is used to block.
- The back hand is used to "switch".

For example, the following steps is called "switching hands" in MA.

- You punch at me.
- I use my leading arm to block your punch.
- I then use my back hand to take over my blocking, free my leading arm, so my leading arm can punch back.

I like to put my back hand next to my leading arm elbow joint. This way, I can switch quickly if I need. I would not put my back hand too close to my body as your clip shows.

 

[skribs]

My simple answer can be:

- The leading arm is used to block.
- The back hand is used to "switch".

For example, the following steps is called "switching hands" in MA.

- You punch at me.
- I use my leading arm to block your punch.
- I then use my back hand to take over my blocking, free my leading arm, so my leading arm can punch back.

I like to put my back hand next to my leading arm elbow joint. This way, I can switch quickly if I need. I would not put my back hand too close to my body as your clip shows.

This makes sense to me too. A few of our defense drills use this concept. Thanks!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It would be irresponsible of me to throw out what I don't understand based on the fact I don't understand it.

If I do understand it and see better ways of accomplishing the same goal, then that's a different story.

I have tried to understand the application of the following clip all my life. Now my conclusion is that move has no MA application.

 

[skribs]

I have tried to understand the application of the following clip all my life. Now my conclusion is that move has no MA application.

Well, as evidenced by this thread, I've gotten a few useful answers. So the problem was not that the move is not applicable, but that I didn't understand the application. That has been corrected.

As to that video, you have Enemy #1's left arm in a wristlock and armbar. Enemy #2 is attacking from the left, so you use pain compliance to move Enemy #1 in the way of Enemy #2 and turn him into a human shield.