Practical Application of the Double-Knife-Hand Block

[skribs]

CONGRATULATIONS you've figured it out.

Everyone keeps telling you to play with the technique, because the technique is variable. You can push, you can thrust, you can whip, you can move in straight lines or circles...
This is the point of kata. They are fluid and variable as fighting is fluid and variable.

No, I haven't figured it out. I've been saying it all along.

A hammer is not a screwdriver, but if you need a screwdriver why would you not put down the thing you don't need and pick up the tool that you do need? Because it has a label on it?

To translate: if your fighting for your life and a knife hand "block" can fit in the gap you see as a hit, are you going to let the opportunity pass because it's a block not a strike?

Since you like to play devil's advocate I'll just tell you, the answer is no, that would be stupid.

This makes no sense at all. You tell me to put down the screwdriver and pick up the hammer and use the right tool for the job. Then you tell me not to use the right tool and just use the tool I have on hand. On top of that, it's not like a video game where I can only have so many moves equipped. It's not like knowing knife-hand block prevents me from knowing knife-hand strike, and that I'd have to put one down in order to use the other. Your metaphor doesn't make much sense at all here.

To that, I say no. You wouldn't use the blocking motion. You might use that if you're doing a sweep, trap, or push. But if you want to do the strike you do the same linear striking motion at a different angle.

And while there might sometimes be stronger strikes, you maximise the power available through training. Just because your basic block is competent doesn't mean that you are physically ready to use all its application potential. We have to develop strikes once we know they are there.

If you train both, the strike will stay stronger than the block.

Lastly the block is also a strike idea is just the beginning of expanding how you use these movements. I've already pointed out that there is a whole tactical framework around the use of knife hand block in back stance (or cat stance) for close quarter fighting.

I mean, in both applications I'm waving my hand in the same way. But the way we learn at my school, we start off with the gross movement and then learn more and more details on each technique as time goes on. The more details you learn about the techniques, the more it quickly becomes clear that they are separate techniques with separate advantages and disadvantages.

You're idea that the chop in Koryo only works as a block from further away shows a really limited understanding of the use of movement. Why not stay close and contact the strike at a different point?

In what scenario is the strike motion going to be better as a block close up?

I get that you want to understand the basic techniques better, but again the real answer to that question is that the basic techniques were designed to hold more than basics and if you want to vary where you place your rear hand when you block you can because it doesn't matter at all.

"It doesn't matter at all" doesn't sound like the right answer to me. What else "doesn't matter at all" in your techniques?

 

[skribs]

I think the most practical application of the Double Knifehand Block is to fight Bruce Lee in the Roman Coliseum.

Lol it's Way of the Dragon, not Enter the Dragon. Good find. Although he still keeps his hand a bit away from his body instead of pressed in.

 

[DaveB]

skribs, post: 1910700, member: 31615"]...
To that, I say no. You wouldn't use the blocking motion. You might use that if you're doing a sweep, trap, or push. But if you want to do the strike you do the same linear striking motion at a different angle.

Except that would expose your ribs and your elbow which in close is pretty fatal. Hence why your knife-hand block also functions as a close strike, which ties into that bit you ignored while looking for holes in my point about the tactical close quarter framework.

If you train both, the strike will stay stronger than the block.

Hopefully now you can see that there's more to technique than just power.

I mean, in both applications I'm waving my hand in the same way. But the way we learn at my school, we start off with the gross movement and then learn more and more details on each technique as time goes on. The more details you learn about the techniques, the more it quickly becomes clear that they are separate techniques with separate advantages and disadvantages.

Are you conflating the 45degree knife hand block movement with the horizontal strike motion again?

That is not what we mean when we say that the block is also a strike.

In what scenario is the strike motion going to be better as a block close up?

For one, when you need to block from a position where your elbow is raised.

"It doesn't matter at all" doesn't sound like the right answer to me. What else "doesn't matter at all" in your techniques?

Sigh.

If you think you can fight taking fixed positions into every situation without consideration for what is happening be my guest.

You are insistent on viewing all movements through the lens of their teaching labels when it is the broader applications that reveal more about the construction of the movement.

The labels don't matter.

When fighting, obeying the principles behind the form are more important than each specific position. In other words, if you are blocking , what matters is the block, not a standardised place holder for the other hand.

 

[skribs]

Except that would expose your ribs and your elbow which in close is pretty fatal. Hence why your knife-hand block also functions as a close strike, which ties into that bit you ignored while looking for holes in my point about the tactical close quarter framework.

I'd still end up with a slightly different chamber and motion if I'm going for a strike.

The block uses the shoulder as the primary actuator. The shoulder doesn't make for a strong fulcrum for a strike, especially in the case of something in close. The elbow is a much better actuator.

So I would chamber palm out and make a linear motion along my elbow, whereas with the block I would chamber palm in, rotate on the elbow and make an angular motion from my shoulder.

Hopefully now you can see that there's more to technique than just power.

Yes. But if you can do a technique with more power, the technique with less power isn't favorable.

For one, when you need to block from a position where your elbow is raised.

In that case I would drop my elbow as I do the motion, instead of doing a linear motion.

Sigh.

If you think you can fight taking fixed positions into every situation without consideration for what is happening be my guest.

You are insistent on viewing all movements through the lens of their teaching labels when it is the broader applications that reveal more about the construction of the movement.

The labels don't matter.

When fighting, obeying the principles behind the form are more important than each specific position. In other words, if you are blocking , what matters is the block, not a standardised place holder for the other hand.

Ok. So why is THIS fixed position used? It shows up in the Palgwe forms, in the Taegeuk forms, and in the Koryo and Taegeuk forms. Maybe even more. It shows up in Karate kata. It shows up virtually everywhere. It has to be there for more than just "to show you labels don't matter".

There is definitely a reason to keep your off-hand tight to your side, or to pull your off-hand tight when doing a technique. There's a reason to do another technique with the off-hand (i.e. block with one hand and strike with the other). There's a reason to keep your offhand ready in front of you in a guard position.

The position with your hand at your solar plexus comes up too often, and comes up in every set of forms I've seen in TKD, that it can't be there by accident. It can't be there just to tell you that your other hand doesn't matter. In fact, the more we learn forms at my school, the more we learn that the minor details DO matter. We learn more details about techniques as we get further along in our training. For this to be a detail that doesn't always apply would be fine. But for it to be a detail that doesn't matter is not something I can accept.

 

[DaveB]

1. Both block and strike use the whole body in sequence, all that should change is the emphasis.

2. If you just drop your elbow into a standard knife-hand block you miss all the control options of the long movement. They horizontal is a different technique not interchangeable with the standard knife-hand. Try to understand it before you throw it out.

3. I told you why that and all the fixed positions are used, but you are too busy looking for argument's to take anything in.

And technique repeating across multiple form sets doesn't mean anything except that they came from the same source.

I and most of the people who posted answers to your questions have been where you are. I wasn't able to find answers as easily as posting on a forum because there were non available when I was trying to understand my forms.

If you want to develop your own understanding that ignores all the work that's been done in the past 20 yrs, go for it. But I don't get why you would ask other people if that's your plan?

 

[Danny T]

Why hand at solar plexus, why at hip? Maybe I'm placing something there, maybe I'm getting ready to remove something from there, maybe something is there and I'm covering it. There are numerous potentials.
How about a bend arm lock...You are placing the opponent's elbow to your sternum. Maybe you are doing a standing arm lock holding the opponent's wrist at your sternum. It really is about what is being attacked, how it is being attacked, what the the spatial relationship between you and the opponent.

 

[DaveB]

Ok. So why is THIS fixed position used? It shows up in the Palgwe forms, in the Taegeuk forms, and in the Koryo and Taegeuk forms. Maybe even more. It shows up in Karate kata. It shows up virtually everywhere. It has to be there for more than just "to show you labels don't matter".

There is definitely a reason to keep your off-hand tight to your side, or to pull your off-hand tight when doing a technique. There's a reason to do another technique with the off-hand (i.e. block with one hand and strike with the other). There's a reason to keep your offhand ready in front of you in a guard position.

The position with your hand at your solar plexus comes up too often, and comes up in every set of forms I've seen in TKD, that it can't be there by accident. It can't be there just to tell you that your other hand doesn't matter. In fact, the more we learn forms at my school, the more we learn that the minor details DO matter. We learn more details about techniques as we get further along in our training. For this to be a detail that doesn't always apply would be fine. But for it to be a detail that doesn't matter is not something I can accept.

One last time. There is no great mystery to these things if viewed from level 1, simple blocking and striking.

You insist on viewing the techniques at level 1, so the answer is the level one answer, ie training body mechanics.

But you didn't ask about training, you asked about application at level 1.

At level 1.
A block is a block.
A strike is a strike.
At this level of interpretation, your formal hand placement when applying these techniques, does not aid or improve your application of the technique. Keeping your palm infront of your solar plexus while knife-hand blocking is mmeaningless. You are better off keeping a guard up with the other hand.
At this level.

There are other levels for which the hand placement is relevant and it is these levels that explain the hand placement.

 

[DaveB]

Why hand at solar plexus, why at hip? Maybe I'm placing something there, maybe I'm getting ready to remove something from there, maybe something is there and I'm covering it. There are numerous potentials.
How about a bend arm lock...You are placing the opponent's elbow to your sternum. Maybe you are doing a standing arm lock holding the opponent's wrist at your sternum. It really is about what is being attacked, how it is being attacked, what the the spatial relationship between you and the opponent.

All great points, but he wants to know about the block, only the block, nothing but the block.

 

[wab25]

You are insistent on viewing all movements through the lens of their teaching labels when it is the broader applications that reveal more about the construction of the movement.

If you read my last question to him and his response... you will see that he is not interested in learning the mechanics, the movement, the principles or the application of any of this. What he specifically wants is for us to give him a situation where he can perform the labelled application, and at the same time, every other piece of the technique is practical and must be in that exact spot. I have never trained under anyone, that taught that method of investigation, nor can I come up with a situation where he can perform the labelled application, with every other detail being exact as in the form / kata. It could be that I have not trained under someone that is at his level yet, so that could be why I don't see it his way.

The position with your hand at your solar plexus comes up too often, and comes up in every set of forms I've seen in TKD, that it can't be there by accident. It can't be there just to tell you that your other hand doesn't matter. In fact, the more we learn forms at my school, the more we learn that the minor details DO matter. We learn more details about techniques as we get further along in our training. For this to be a detail that doesn't always apply would be fine. But for it to be a detail that doesn't matter is not something I can accept.

You are correct. This detail does indeed matter. However, it does not matter for the labelled application. There are many examples of people using an outward, knife hand block in the ring and in real life, where the other hand was in a different position. The block worked just fine for them, plenty of power and everything. In order, for that specific detail to matter, you have to let go of the outward knife hand block idea. Why does it show up so much? Because their are a lot of reasons for it. But exactly zero of those reasons have anything to do with the outward knife hand block.

 

[skribs]

One last time. There is no great mystery to these things if viewed from level 1, simple blocking and striking.

You insist on viewing the techniques at level 1, so the answer is the level one answer, ie training body mechanics.

But you didn't ask about training, you asked about application at level 1.

At level 1.
A block is a block.
A strike is a strike.
At this level of interpretation, your formal hand placement when applying these techniques, does not aid or improve your application of the technique. Keeping your palm infront of your solar plexus while knife-hand blocking is mmeaningless. You are better off keeping a guard up with the other hand.
At this level.

There are other levels for which the hand placement is relevant and it is these levels that explain the hand placement.

The very first techniques I've learned at any Taekwondo school I've been to have been horse stance punching, which chambers the other hand at the side, and there are multiple reasons to pull the hand down to the side that way when punching, and most relate to the punch itself.

This is also done in our forms, our drilled combinations, and in our drilled self defense scenarios. There are times we keep our hands up, but usually that hand comes tight at the side when doing a combo. For example, in a situation where I am in a standard sparring stance, do left hand jab, right hand reverse punch, right hand backfist, and then step forward and do left hand reverse, when I do the jab I will keep my right hand up by my face, but I will pull the jab to my hip as I do my punches with my right hand, to get a stronger reverse punch with the right hand as I turn into the punch, as well as to get a stronger reverse punch from a better chamber position when I punch with that hand again.

Putting my hand tight at my side isn't an arbitrary thing done for the sake of appearances or formality. There are reasons to do this. I see no reason why the same should not apply to any other technique that is trained.

If you read my last question to him and his response... you will see that he is not interested in learning the mechanics, the movement, the principles or the application of any of this. What he specifically wants is for us to give him a situation where he can perform the labelled application, and at the same time, every other piece of the technique is practical and must be in that exact spot. I have never trained under anyone, that taught that method of investigation, nor can I come up with a situation where he can perform the labelled application, with every other detail being exact as in the form / kata. It could be that I have not trained under someone that is at his level yet, so that could be why I don't see it his way.

This honestly shocks me that the question is so shocking for so many people. Let me summarize the conversation so far:

This is a double knife-hand block.
Okay, so why do you hold your hand here instead of at our side like we normally do.
Well, if you're doing a wrist-lock, you might be grabbing the wrist.
But I thought it was a block.
It can be a block, but it might be a grab.
Okay, so if it's a block, why do you hold your hand here.
But it's not a block, it's a grab.
But you said it can be a block, and it's called a block.
You're getting too hung up on the name. It can also be a strike.
Okay, say it's a strike. Why do you have your hand here?
Why are you so hung up on if it's a block or a strike? You don't understand the principle of it.
I just said it could be a block or a strike.
But it could also be a grab.

We're going around in circles avoiding the question. In a striking scenario, meaning use of blocks and strikes (which is what typically show up in most of the Taekwondo forms):

1. Why is it an advantage to have your hand tight against your solar plexus, palm up?
2. Why does this only show up with outward blocks and low blocks? I've never seen this hand position show up with an inward block or high block.

Now, in a grappling scenario, I'm still having trouble with the motion and it's set points as well. The position of the double-knife-hand-block is one palm out away from your body and one palm up, with the hand against your body. Let's assume the right hand is held palm out, and the left hand is tucked in palm up. The scenarios I can see are:

• A wristlock with the right hand and left hand pressing on their elbow or shoulder. In this case, I would likely have my hands flipped from the double-knife-hand, with my right hand palm up and my left hand palm down.
• A figure-4 lock as I think @Danny T was referencing. Again, for a figure 4, I'd have my left hand down. My right hand would be in a completely different position (across my body instead of away from it).
• A wristlock with the left hand and armbar on the elbow with the right. In this case, I would have made my motion in the opposite direction, my right hand would point different, and I'd rather be at a different angle so I have more control over the situation.
• A wristlock from an attacker in front of me instead of the side. In this case, I'd end up more in the position in Taegeuk 7, only instead of my other hand blocking in front of me, I'd bring it into the wrist lock as well. I'd also have my palms pointing inward at each other instead of up.
• An armbar with the left arm wrapped around their arm, and my right hand in a wristlock. In this case, the motion of my left arm would be completely different (an up-and-around scoop instead of an out-to-in snap), and again my right hand would be palm up instead of palm out.

So, even in a grappling scenario, I'm having trouble with when you would make the a motion similar to the double-knife-hand block and/or end up in a similar position to the double-knife-hand.

And yes, I am shocked. I am shocked that a motion that is called a block isn't expected to sometimes be a block.

 

[DaveB]

The conversation so far is:
You - what is this hand position for during the block.
Everyone else - nothing much when you block.
You - I don't want it to be that, I want a different answer, I want all TKD technique to be based on my preference for following labels.

Wishing things were simpler won't change them.

The history of Taekwondo is what it is, the labels are what they are and the developmental structure that starts with simple gross motor movement before layering more skillful techniques over those gross movements (enabling multiple levels of training in each repetition) is what you've got.

You can try to see the elegance in a system that enables you to study a few movements and find deep wells of application or you can try and do your own thing based on level 1.

 

[DaveB]

BTW Skribs, I'd love to hear your reason for hip side chambers in punching?

I know you said it makes me the punch stronger, but how exactly. And if it's so effective why do we only see it done by junior level TKD and karate students?

 

[wab25]

We're going around in circles avoiding the question. In a striking scenario, meaning use of blocks and strikes (which is what typically show up in most of the Taekwondo forms):

1. Why is it an advantage to have your hand tight against your solar plexus, palm up?
2. Why does this only show up with outward blocks and low blocks? I've never seen this hand position show up with an inward block or high block.

Alright... you have asked enough... we can let the secret out. (this is not usually taught until a person reaches sandan)
When you hold the other hand in that position, for outward and low blocks, it helps create a better path for your chi to flow, giving the blocking hand much more power. Yeah, the chi thing is over rated. The real reason is that it sets your shoulders in the correct relationship to your rib cage, to allow your muscles more freedom of movement which results in more power. But, this is only true for outward and low blocks.

(now at yodan, we will learn about the exact placement of the tip of your thumb on the non-blocking hand. If it is touching the right meridian along your index finger, it will multiply the power of the block... however, this is dependent on the arm and hand being in the correct alignment, which is why that alignment is taught from white belt on up.)

I am reminded of a guy that was wondering around the desert until he found a drinking fountain. The lever to make the water flow, was broken off and the water was continuously flowing. However, the poor guy could not drink. You see, in order to drink the water, you have to push the lever. Since the lever is gone, how can you drink? The lever says "Press for water" for a reason.

And yes, I am shocked. I am shocked that a motion that is called a block isn't expected to sometimes be a block.

No one here ever said it was not sometimes a block. It absolutely is sometimes a block. But, only sometimes. Much more often, it is something else. In the few times that it is a block, it doesn't matter where your other hand is. But, for all the other times, when it is not a block, that other hand matters a lot more.

We're going around in circles avoiding the question.

No, actually, the question has been answered directly many times. The answer is just not being accepted. We are going through quite a few exaggerated circles to get around accepting those answers.

This honestly shocks me that the question is so shocking for so many people.

Does this tell you anything? Either you have learned something that none of these "so many people have," or there is something else you should be picking up here. Are any of these people, martial artists who you respect as martial artists?

 

[Danny T]

All great points, but he wants to know about the block, only the block, nothing but the block.

The term 'block' is a misnomer.

 

[DaveB]

The term 'block' is a misnomer.

Lol, maybe so, but he wants to know anyway.

 

[skribs]

BTW Skribs, I'd love to hear your reason for hip side chambers in punching?

I know you said it makes me the punch stronger, but how exactly. And if it's so effective why do we only see it done by junior level TKD and karate students?

Because it's an actual chamber position instead of a guard position, which gives it more room to accelerate towards the target. This is why it's very difficult to generate power in a 1 inch punch, and why a rifle with a 14.5" barrel will shoot at a lower velocity than a rifle with a 22" barrel.

Why don't we see it used at higher levels in Taekwondo? Probably because the guard position becomes preferred. As I stated in my example, I typically have a guard up, it's only during combinations that I chamber at my side, and at the end of a combo my guard comes back up. Similarly, most if I am going back and forth between punches and kicks, I will keep my guard up, and a lot of our advanced defense drills involve a combination of grappling and striking, in which case your hands are too busy to return to the hip chamber. But there are times still that the hand comes to side.

In WTF style Taekwondo, punches don't really score points anyway, so protecting your head from a 3- or 4-pointer is a lot better than getting 1 point with a punch.

So I think it's not that the hip chamber is bad or inferior. It's just that it's a tool you have. When you have more tools to work with, then each tool becomes less used. When I bought a hacksaw, I didn't use my utility knife as much. When I got a rubber mallet, I didn't use my hammer (with a cloth) as much. So as you learn how to things from a guarded position, and how to flow between kicks and punches, and engage in rules where punches aren't of much value, then the chamber can fall by the wayside.

The other aspect is simply if people don't see the value in it, they might not think it's worthwhile and ignore it.

I can't speak for why it doesn't show up much in karate. But my experience with Taekwondo is that it hasn't been phased out at higher belts, it's just that higher belts have less situations in which that is the best tool to use.

 

[DaveB]

Because it's an actual chamber position instead of a guard position, which gives it more room to accelerate towards the target. This is why it's very difficult to generate power in a 1 inch punch, and why a rifle with a 14.5" barrel will shoot at a lower velocity than a rifle with a 22" barrel.

Why don't we see it used at higher levels in Taekwondo? Probably because the guard position becomes preferred. As I stated in my example, I typically have a guard up, it's only during combinations that I chamber at my side, and at the end of a combo my guard comes back up. Similarly, most if I am going back and forth between punches and kicks, I will keep my guard up, and a lot of our advanced defense drills involve a combination of grappling and striking, in which case your hands are too busy to return to the hip chamber.

But how can this be???

A TKD punch has a hip chamber, how can you have "advanced" techniques and drills that don't use the hip chamber when clearly TKD punches have a hip chamber??

Punching without a hip chamber is less powerful so surely you should just use the hip chamber instead of the guard?
If you don't then you're not making use of part of the established technique, as if at advanced level you find some elements of beginner technique to be unnecessary...?

 

[skribs]

But how can this be???

A TKD punch has a hip chamber, how can you have "advanced" techniques and drills that don't use the hip chamber when clearly TKD punches have a hip chamber??

Punching without a hip chamber is less powerful so surely you should just use the hip chamber instead of the guard?
If you don't then you're not making use of part of the established technique, as if at advanced level you find some elements of beginner technique to be unnecessary...?

I realize you're trying to throw my logic against me. But it's not working, because the questions you're asking are different. I'm asking how the solar plexus chamber CAN be used practically.

You are asking why, if there is a practical use of the hip chamber, why it's not the only chamber ever used.

Two completely different questions.

 

[DaveB]

I realize you're trying to throw my logic against me. But it's not working, because the questions you're asking are different. I'm asking how the solar plexus chamber CAN be used practically.

You are asking why, if there is a practical use of the hip chamber, why it's not the only chamber ever used.

Two completely different questions.

Actually it was a more general satire covering what you said but also the fact that technique and the understanding thereof change as you progress and showing you that it's pretty common for tactical concerns to outweigh power generation for technique.

Though you've mischaracterised your argument. You've been given practical uses for this posture, but you want uses that pertain to blocking and there just aren't any because you only need one hand to block and because older martial arts are not actually split into discreet categories like blocking and grappling. Fighting is fighting and though application is often layered into levels for teaching, application is where it all blends together because fighting is fluid.

Even if my post were a one to one comparison you would just say something like "yes I would drink the bleach," because your aim is to confirm your own incorrect view rather than learn and so you try and poke holes in everything that's not what you want to hear.

You proved that when your argument about using the horizontal strike was shown up for the shallow, incomplete and tactically unsound guesswork that it was, and you just breezed on by to the next excuse to not listen.

Form is to train the body in a bunch of good ideas and useful skills. Labels make it easier to get everyone doing the same thing. Fighting (application) is a different ballgame.

 

[Earl Weiss]

............................it's pretty common for tactical concerns to outweigh power generation for technique.

.

I think the above statement is extremely important. Having the elbow down / protecting the ribs in any number of "Block" applications is important. Had an instructor who would smack us hard in the ribs if we did not have the elbow down. Terrific reminder of why it needed to be there.