Outside Block vs. Outside Block

[Earl Weiss]

. I do want to use inward/outward for ax kicks and crescent kicks. The only thing is, I can see how inward and inside could easily be confused. .

I think for what you call crescent kicks we call vertical kicks. (We have crescent kicks but they are different,) Nonetheless we again differentiate by the tool. So, the outside / small toe side rear tird edge of the foot is called "Footsword" and large toe side is reverse footsword, So, for those the direction is implied by the tool. We do have a couple of others that need to be specified as Inward / outward. In any event there really is little opportunity for confusion because since the systen only uses inside / outside in relation to the opponent the term is not used for patterns. line drills, pad work etc.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Do you agree with this statement:
Using the right hand for reference, moving the hand/arm from outside your body (or at the shoulder in your terminology) And moving IN toward the center of your body is Always an inside block of some type. And the opposite is true. Using the right hand, starting at the center of the body or beyond and moving the hand/arm Outward is Always an outside block. .

For the Chang Hon system I disagree. Direction of Horizontal motion is InWARD or OutWARD. >>>moving the hand/arm from outside your body (or at the shoulder in your terminology) And moving IN toward the center of your body is <<< This would be inward >>>>>Using the right hand, starting at the center of the body or beyond and moving the hand/arm Outward <<< This is an outward block. The motions are identical irrespective of whether an opponent is present. Therefore in this system the naming is the same irrespective of whether an opponent is present. Now if an opponent is present and you want to specify (But you really shouldn't need to because relative positioning would likely only allow one possibility) You might say "Inside block with Inward Block with right outer forearm." For instance if a person is facing you with the right arm extended palm down - doing an Inward block with right outer forearm to the outside / small finger side doesn't work out. Hope this makes sense.

 

[dvcochran]

The second lateral section: knife-hand block, followed by a punch.



Inward: block like in Move #5 in Taegeuk 2.
Inside: block like Move #1 in Keumgang.
Outside: block like Move #3 in Taegeuk 6 (down block, front kick, outside block).

I was merely using "ridgehand" as a more efficient synonym for "reverse knife-hand." I think you're fixated too much on the term. I was simply referring to the part of the hand. That isnt used in an inward block or downward block.

We refer to the stance as well so instead of saying 'inward' block (Taeguek 2) we say reverse inside block.
Kukkiwon would say 'wen ap gubi momtong ahn makki'. Translated that would be rear leg (reverse) front stance middle inside block.

Move #1 in Keumgang is a double Outside block. Hecheo Makki

Agree the arm movement in Taeguek #6 is an Outside block however it is performed moving backwards finishing in back stance. This is an example of what I mean when I say some movements are an amalgamation of the form. Especially when learning a form it is much easier if things are expressed in simplest terms like simply an outside block. Then you can separate the rest of the mechanics into individual parts.

 

[dvcochran]

For the Chang Hon system I disagree. Direction of Horizontal motion is InWARD or OutWARD. >>>moving the hand/arm from outside your body (or at the shoulder in your terminology) And moving IN toward the center of your body is <<< This would be inward >>>>>Using the right hand, starting at the center of the body or beyond and moving the hand/arm Outward <<< This is an outward block. The motions are identical irrespective of whether an opponent is present. Therefore in this system the naming is the same irrespective of whether an opponent is present. Now if an opponent is present and you want to specify (But you really shouldn't need to because relative positioning would likely only allow one possibility) You might say "Inside block with Inward Block with right outer forearm." For instance if a person is facing you with the right arm extended palm down - doing an Inward block with right outer forearm to the outside / small finger side doesn't work out. Hope this makes sense.

I think we are getting there. Inward/inside and outward/outside have the same meaning in expressing the block.

Let's try this differently.
If I stand with my arms down by my side, palm of my hands facing rearwards, the outside edge of my forearm is toward the outside of my body (pinky side). The inside edge of my forearm would be nearest my body or inside (thumb side).
So an Outside block would always use the Outside forearm (thumb side) and an Inside block would always use the Inside forearm (pinky) side.

 

[skribs]

I wonder if it would help helpful to use standard Kukkiwon terminology when describing these moves, even if you want to call it something else in English. There have been changes to Kukkiwon terminology in the past decade, but in generally they're really consistent.

"Han sonnal makki" is the movement you're referring to.

When you refer to ridgehand you mean "sonnal deung", literally the hand position that is the other side of the knife hand (without referring to how it's moving).

I don't speak enough Korean to translate. Often these literal translations are inefficient.

We refer to the stance as well so instead of saying 'inward' block (Taeguek 2) we say reverse inside block.
Kukkiwon would say 'wen ap gubi momtong ahn makki'. Translated that would be rear leg (reverse) front stance middle inside block.

Move #1 in Keumgang is a double Outside block. Hecheo Makki

Agree the arm movement in Taeguek #6 is an Outside block however it is performed moving backwards finishing in back stance. This is an example of what I mean when I say some movements are an amalgamation of the form. Especially when learning a form it is much easier if things are expressed in simplest terms like simply an outside block. Then you can separate the rest of the mechanics into individual parts.

The moving backwards would be part of the kick, the way I describe it. The name of the block remains the same no matter which hand does it, whether you're talking right/left or lead/reverse. I just need a modifier (i.e. "reverse.")

This is another reason I want concise terms. "Inward forearm closed fist block with the rear hand" and "reverse inward block" are both as precise as each other, but the former is a much bigger mouthful.

 

[andyjeffries]

I don't speak enough Korean to translate. Often these literal translations are inefficient.

Sorry I obviously wasn't clear. I wasn't asking you to translate your terms into Korean. Or the Korean terms in to English. Just when you're trying to describe a movement, rather than just say "X move in Taegeuk Y" add the official name of the movement (they're all on YouTube in the official Kukkiwon videos). Then those of us that know the standards immediately know which movement you're referring to and can offer input.

Anyway, just a thought.

 

[dvcochran]

I don't speak enough Korean to translate. Often these literal translations are inefficient.



The moving backwards would be part of the kick, the way I describe it. The name of the block remains the same no matter which hand does it, whether you're talking right/left or lead/reverse. I just need a modifier (i.e. "reverse.")

This is another reason I want concise terms. "Inward forearm closed fist block with the rear hand" and "reverse inward block" are both as precise as each other, but the former is a much bigger mouthful.

Let me ask you this; why is it important to have such a specific name? For testing/drilling purposes?
Inward forearm I understand. Closed fist block I understand. Rear hand I do not understand. Backfist?

 

[skribs]

Let me ask you this; why is it important to have such a specific name? For testing/drilling purposes?
Inward forearm I understand. Closed fist block I understand. Rear hand I do not understand. Backfist?

Testing, drilling, documentation, communication.

If you were my student, you would have learned the techniques by my terms, and you wouldn't be confused. Just like how I see Karate and Judo guys using Japanese terms, it makes perfect sense to them, but I'm lost.

 

[skribs]

Sorry I obviously wasn't clear. I wasn't asking you to translate your terms into Korean. Or the Korean terms in to English. Just when you're trying to describe a movement, rather than just say "X move in Taegeuk Y" add the official name of the movement (they're all on YouTube in the official Kukkiwon videos). Then those of us that know the standards immediately know which movement you're referring to and can offer input.

Anyway, just a thought.

If I was on my desktop, yes. I have enough issues just typing on mobile.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Let me ask you this; why is it important to have such a specific name?

I have always believed that for technique,

- Name is not important.
- Technique has no standard.

I don't use the term Shuai Chiao, or Shuai Jiao. I use the term Chinese wrestling so everybody can understand without explanation.

 

[skribs]

Let me ask you this; why is it important to have such a specific name? For testing/drilling purposes?
Inward forearm I understand. Closed fist block I understand. Rear hand I do not understand. Backfist?

Now I understand the question. Rear hand as in lead vs. rear hand. For example, in an orthodox boxing stance, your left hand is lead, your right hand is rear/reverse/strong/trailing (whatever word you use to describe it).

 

[Earl Weiss]

I think we are getting there. Inward/inside and outward/outside have the same meaning in expressing the block.

Let's try this differently.
If I stand with my arms down by my side, palm of my hands facing rearwards, the outside edge of my forearm is toward the outside of my body (pinky side). The inside edge of my forearm would be nearest my body or inside (thumb side).
So an Outside block would always use the Outside forearm (thumb side) and an Inside block would always use the Inside forearm (pinky) side.

From your post #7 " Using the right hand, starting at the center of the body or beyond and moving the hand/arm Outward "

Note how you use the term "outward to describe direction of travel. That is what the Chng Hon system does independant of whether it might me inside / ouside depending on relative position of the opponent and which limb they are blocking.
"
""the outside edge of my forearm is toward the outside of my body (pinky side). The inside edge of my forearm would be nearest my body or inside (thumb side).
So an Outside block would always use the Outside forearm (thumb side) and an Inside block would always use the Inside forearm (pinky) side"

For you, yes. For Chang Hon - No. The edge of the arm used would be the inner / outer forearm. The outer forearm could move from it's same side shoulder line toward the center, which would be inward, or from the center line to the same said shoulder line which would be outward. Now if you are doing a right arm Inward block with the Outer forearm and the person were standing directly in front of you with their right arm extended in a punch your Block would be to the thumb side of their arm an inside Block. If they were punching with their left hand you would contact the pinky side of their arm and it would be an outside block. If no opponent was present their would be no way to tell if your inward block with the outer forearm were Inside / outside.

 

[andyjeffries]

I have always believed that for technique,

- Technique has no standard.

Well, I can't speak to your Kung Fu experience, but I can say that for Kukkiwon Taekwondo this is definitely incorrect. There are correct standards for every technique, just most people outside Korea don't know what they are. I believe the same is true for ITF Taekwon-do, but I can't be 100% sure. Maybe GM Earl Weiss can answer.

 

[Earl Weiss]

W...............for Kukkiwon Taekwondo this is definitely incorrect. There are correct standards for every technique, just most people outside Korea don't know what they are. I believe the same is true for ITF Taekwon-do, but I can't be 100% sure. Maybe GM Earl Weiss can answer.

For certain practice there are definite standards. These provide the practitioner a goal or target to hit, and the observer / instructor a way to determine to what degree the goal has been achieved or the target hit. These standards also provide a convenient "Center point" Think of the Standard as a point in the center of a sphere. Moving outward from the center the technique can be morphed / adjusted to suit any number of situations. Adjusting from the center outward provides a starting point that is easier to adjust from as opposed to the standard point being on the edge of the sphere and having to adjust to the opposite extreme - I hope that analogy makes sense.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I have always believed that for technique,

-
- Technique has no standard.

.

How dost that work? Instructor is teaching or tells student to do &&**%% Kick. Student does something that has Little resemblance if any to that kick. How are corrections made?

 

[skribs]

Well, I can't speak to your Kung Fu experience, but I can say that for Kukkiwon Taekwondo this is definitely incorrect. There are correct standards for every technique, just most people outside Korea don't know what they are. I believe the same is true for ITF Taekwon-do, but I can't be 100% sure. Maybe GM Earl Weiss can answer.

In my experience the standards change from school to school. For example, at my school, we follow through our spinning hook kicks back to the starting position. We get a lot of transfer students that will do the spin-hook and advancing (placing the kicking foot forward). This is something that seems to be school-specific, but it would be a standard at each school.

 

[dvcochran]

For certain practice there are definite standards. These provide the practitioner a goal or target to hit, and the observer / instructor a way to determine to what degree the goal has been achieved or the target hit. These standards also provide a convenient "Center point" Think of the Standard as a point in the center of a sphere. Moving outward from the center the technique can be morphed / adjusted to suit any number of situations. Adjusting from the center outward provides a starting point that is easier to adjust from as opposed to the standard point being on the edge of the sphere and having to adjust to the opposite extreme - I hope that analogy makes sense.

Fantastic analogy.

I will add this; hope it doesn't muddy the water. I have seen many times where two people are perform a move technically correct however one persons movement is more effective. Stance, footwork, arm motion can be the same. Their build can be the same but one is more effective. To me, this starts to boil over into the intangibles.

 

[Danny T]

The thing is; the term 'block' is but a term use to describe the active movement, the positioning, the structure. It is to convey an idea/concept as to what its potential may be. It is far more than just a block.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In my experience the standards change from school to school. ... but it would be a standard at each school.

Thanks for helping me to make my point clear.

For the front cut throw, I like to grab on my opponent's throat. The traditional way is to push on opponent's shoulder. One day, my wife used the throat grabbing throw in another Chinese wrestling school. The instructor there said, "We don't do this kind of throat grabbing throw here."

Not sure this is legal in Judo or not. Anybody knows?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

How dost that work? Instructor is teaching or tells student to do &&**%% Kick. Student does something that has Little resemblance if any to that kick. How are corrections made?

A: After the kick, should I pull my kick back, or drop straight down?
B: It depends. You should pull your kick back if you intend to use that leg to kick again. You should drop your foot down if you use your kick to set up a punch.

A: For front kick, should I kick with the ball of the foot, or with the instep?
B: It depends. You kick with the ball of the foot if your target is your opponent's chest. You kick with the instep if your target is the groin area.

A: For hip throw, should I bounce my opponent up with my hip, or lift him up by my waist hold?
B: It depends. For outdoor wrestling (on the dirt), you should use "hip bouncing", For indoor wrestling (on the mat), you should use "waist lift". The "hip bouncing" require feet sliding on the ground. It's difficult to do that on the indoor mat.