Outside Block vs. Outside Block

[Kung Fu Wang]

There are correct standards for every technique, just most people outside Korea don't know what they are.

A: What's the correct way to do an upward block?
B: It depends. If you intend to hurt your opponent's punching arm, you use a hard block. If you intend to move in, your block should be as light as to hold the curtain up, you then walk under through. How much force do you need to hold up a curtain?

 

[andyjeffries]

For certain practice there are definite standards. These provide the practitioner a goal or target to hit, and the observer / instructor a way to determine to what degree the goal has been achieved or the target hit. These standards also provide a convenient "Center point" Think of the Standard as a point in the center of a sphere. Moving outward from the center the technique can be morphed / adjusted to suit any number of situations. Adjusting from the center outward provides a starting point that is easier to adjust from as opposed to the standard point being on the edge of the sphere and having to adjust to the opposite extreme - I hope that analogy makes sense.

I did mean a little differently - in terms of teaching it or tul/hyung (can't remember which term you use) practice. Practical application of the basic motions certainly allows for lots of flexibility in how it's applied.

 

[andyjeffries]

A: What's the correct way to do an upward block?
B: It depends. If you intend to hurt your opponent's punching arm, you use a hard block. If you intend to move in, your block should be as light as to hold the curtain up, you then walk under through. How much force do you need to hold up a curtain?

In Kukkiwon Taekwondo if you are doing an upward block, it's always the same way, accelerating through the range of motion to reach maximum speed at the point of impact.

How you can apply that means there are different ways of doing it, but the technique has a strict standard and one way to be performed. Maybe we're talking different things (and GM Earl made a similar point so maybe I'm not making myself clear). When we teach upwards blocks, everyone goes through the same starting point, same motion and same ending point. All students, all masters, the same.

If when we're practicing them in class, doing line drills or poomsae, someone starts going light/softly claiming they're holding a curtain up, or moving more outwards at the top, claiming they're redirecting a downward stick strike, they are doing it wrong. That's not how to do a standard rising block.

If we're doing self-defence/one-step sparring and they use a slightly amended version, that's completely fine, that's a practical application of the basic movement.

Think to the Karate Kid. When he was doing sand the floor and Mr Miyagi was showing the application, he went to bend down to the floor (the right way to sand it, but the wrong way to apply it). The basic motions build "muscle memory" and co-ordination/strength in tiny stabilising muscles. But the application is different to the basic motion.

 

[andyjeffries]

In my experience the standards change from school to school. For example, at my school, we follow through our spinning hook kicks back to the starting position. We get a lot of transfer students that will do the spin-hook and advancing (placing the kicking foot forward). This is something that seems to be school-specific, but it would be a standard at each school.

And if you ask at Kukkiwon, they will either tell you they have different names (therefore are different techniques) or one is correct and the other is adapting a technique for a specific application. I don't remember ever being taught a spinning hook kick on a Kukkiwon course, so I can't answer to that.

As an example I do know about, a downward block (naeryo makki, used to be called arae makki) starts with the blocking hand as a fist on the crease of the opposite shoulder, and the non-blocking arm extended. Some people do it by forming a cross of the wrist (blocking hand inside), some people do it by forming a cross of the wrist (blocking hand outside). However, under Kukkiwon standards these are simply wrong. It's not a different application (they're still doing a basic low/downward block), it's just wrong.

However, in general the standards changing from school to school IMO is more down to either the instructors not knowing the standard (which I feel is bad, it's every master's responsibility to get the best Taekwondo education they can and continue professional development), or most frequently do it the way their instructor did, who did it the way their instructor did, and eventually it's chased back to a lineage where an instructor left Korea in the 50's/60's and didn't stay up to date with changes happening in Korea.

My opinion, but it holds true from many conversations with international masters on these courses.

 

[andyjeffries]

Fantastic analogy.

I will add this; hope it doesn't muddy the water. I have seen many times where two people are perform a move technically correct however one persons movement is more effective. Stance, footwork, arm motion can be the same. Their build can be the same but one is more effective. To me, this starts to boil over into the intangibles.

Most often (again, in my experience), if the stance, footwork and arm motion are the same, this comes down to the basics of Taekwondo core principles. They aren't correctly using their waist to generate power or aren't accelerating but using brute strength for example. These are definitely teachable (although in person rather than via a forum post). I've described these more in a blog post a while ago - Core principles of correct Taekwondo poomsae performance

 

[Earl Weiss]

.........I have seen many times where two people are perform a move technically correct however one persons movement is more effective. Stance, footwork, arm motion can be the same. .

Agreed. To account for this, In the past the ITF would have a pattern scorecard where "Technical Content" was one of the areas on the scorecard. Power, Balance, Breath control and Rhythm were also scored with power having a weight of 5 and the other areas having a weight of 3. Now, judges are simply supposed to consider these areas when determining the winner of each bracket in head to head competition.

 

[Earl Weiss]

In my experience the standards change from school to school. For example, at my school, we follow through our spinning hook kicks back to the starting position. We get a lot of transfer students that will do the spin-hook and advancing (placing the kicking foot forward). This is something that seems to be school-specific, but it would be a standard at each school.

IMO this is an example of things that can be done either way. Unless a specific instruction dictates otherwise.

 

[Earl Weiss]

A: After the kick, should I pull my kick back, or drop straight down?
B: It depends. .................
A: For front kick, should I kick with the ball of the foot, or with the instep?
B: It depends. .............................
A: For hip throw, should I bounce my opponent up with my hip, or lift him up by my waist hold?
B: It depends. ...........................

There is the answer. It depends..................on the instruction given or as the situation dictates. That would be the standard.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Fantastic analogy.
.

Well, if you like the analogy here is a link to an article I wrote back in 1989 which used the center point along a spectrum analogy. some 25 years later my thoughts evolved to the center of a sphere analogy and I wrote another article which I don't have a link to but if anyone is interested I they can PM me there e-mail and I will send a copy. https://1c47d0f0-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites...DFKly4faZfS_Hpz9Twwi_ziCEjWg4=&attredirects=0

 

[Earl Weiss]

Thanks for helping me to make my point clear.

For the front cut throw,.....

Would that be Major outer reaping throw in Judo?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Would that be Major outer reaping throw in Judo?

Front cut with neck push.

Slant cut with shoulder push.

 

[Earl Weiss]

IMO both are sloppy variations of a classic Judo Major outer reaping throw. (Osotogari) There are a lot of variations. Others I have seen and done i will call the Chest / Shoulder bump where you bang your right shoulder and chest into their right shoulder and chest to unbalance them. Another is the Green Alien from hell (If you haven't seen the original Alien move forget the analogy) Where your right hand goes over their face to tilt the head backward.

 

[dvcochran]

Well, if you like the analogy here is a link to an article I wrote back in 1989 which used the center point along a spectrum analogy. some 25 years later my thoughts evolved to the center of a sphere analogy and I wrote another article which I don't have a link to but if anyone is interested I they can PM me there e-mail and I will send a copy. https://1c47d0f0-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/ntkdacad/files/Forms,Patterns,Hyungs,AreyouSwimmingInSandTKDTimesJuly1989.pdf?attachauth=ANoY7cobVT_8lzJOyQbDr_9WrlmjvXLs7w3ckbAQav95koD7qgK0HBkv69hqX2kLYQr8Xg35NH7V9FDZ94qk6_rLYMskrGexCIvrTZjhpVWL31DtgOG_5AtI4MP8lILr5ppULwVNIn6frXEQpZQXG11fzo1-g4rYAQzkoU--cMjUwNjy87Gm2_riCW6WKqKwgvbtOCncVHlCQNLf3JruPW0v-_HUq9-gc8voUpOHg4x293HF3co0eX5VhRpzyHyGM4FLG_yTNniSTGpNse4U2_rhTCDFKly4faZfS_Hpz9Twwi_ziCEjWg4=&attredirects=0

Excellent article, I have overlooked the link and finally got back to reading it. I especially like the section talking about the overlap of stance/form when making power or speed and how practicing forms/hyungs/poomsae integrate these two fundamentals.