Pads work in wing chun

[dudewingchun]

Would prefer to stop talking about CSL to be honest. We can all just agree to disagree . Although im pretty sure that those theories are in other mainland styles of wing chun.

My teacher did mention that he thinks Ip man has better application but Yuen kay san has more comprehensive techniques and the reason the application isnt as good is more to do with this generation of YKS people then his skill himself.

Vajramusti have you ever been in a fight or sparred with someone who doesnt do wing chun and is actually trying to punch you in the face and win? Not saying that in a rude way. Just curious. Actually who has and who hasnt ?

 

[guy b.]

Robert Chu hasn't "grafted on" anything. Pin Sun Wing Chun uses these same concepts, Yuen Kay Shan Wing Chun uses these same concepts, and Tang Yik Weng Chun uses these same concepts. They may not name them or label them the same, but this body dynamic is still there. If it is now in Robert Chu's interpretation of Ip Man Wing Chun, then it is likely because it came from his study of Yuen Kay Shan Wing Chun. Ip Man dropped use of the "key words" and other "classical" stuff, while Yuen Kay Shan did not.

If it wasn't in Robert Chu's wing chun until he looked elsewhere then he has indeed grafted it on. But lets stop for a minute and look at what actually is in YKS wing chun according to the article written by among others Robert Chu, Hendrik Santos and Jim Roselando (as unbiased a bunch as you could get I'm sure when it comes to this topic). Faat of YKS says that it contains, among 9 other methods, chen, tou and tun.

Given this, how then does CSL wing chun manage to derive its body method which looks just the same as white crane as far as it goes, and also similar to pak mei, spm etc, etc, from the methods of YKS wing chun? Even these guys failed to find method number 4, which I can assure you Alan Orr shows as part of his wing chun.

Also looking at video clips of YKS wing chun it looks absolutely nothing like these others. In fact it looks just like wing chun. Why is this, if it happens to be based on the same core principles as the white crane, bak mei, SPM etc? They look very different to YKS wing chun,but very similar to CSL body method demos.

 

[KPM]

You yourself identified control as being more important than striking in CSL wing chun. I don't really understand why you are arguing against this now

---Actually, what I said was:
One of the core concepts is to control the opponent and break his balance. Then you can hit him at will. While this might look like "prolonged contact", it is really controlling the opponent so you can do whatever you want to them.

Which is not the same as saying control is more important than striking. You either have a reading comprehension problem, or keep jumping to unnecessary conclusions to support your preconceived notions. I wonder which it is? ;-)


You: I insult you!

Me: That's a bit weird.

You: I was only joking, you humourless fool!

----And yet you thought nothing of insulting me in exactly the same way on another thread! I turn it back on you to try and lighten things up bit and you take offense. Geez!



If it wasn't in Robert Chu's wing chun until he looked elsewhere then he has indeed grafted it on.

---Elsewhere being another version of Wing Chun. That isn't exactly "grafted on." Its all Wing Chun!



Given this, how then does CSL wing chun manage to derive its body method which looks just the same as white crane as far as it goes, and also similar to pak mei, spm etc, etc, from the methods of YKS wing chun? Even these guys failed to find method number 4, which I can assure you Alan Orr shows as part of his wing chun.

---I'm not discussing anything with you anymore. You turn everything into an argument. You make it confrontational by saying things like "Have you ever wrestled?" and "Have you ever studied a combat art?" You took things downhill starting at post #75, where it became clear to me that you weren't even trying to understand what I was saying. You twist things that I have written around to try and say things that I haven't said. That is not exactly trying to actually understand someone else's viewpoint! You just go one believing anything you want. You seem to have all the answers you need already.

 

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE="dudewingchun, post: 1739369, member: 32677

Vajramusti have you ever been in a fight or sparred with someone who doesnt do wing chun and is actually trying to punch you in the face and win? Not saying that in a rude way. Just curious. Actually who has and who hasnt ?[/QUOTE]

--------------------------------------------Yes !

 

[LFJ]

@KPM

I seem to remember not so long ago on the other forum, you were telling Alan he wasn't doing Wing Chun at all, just boxing or MMA. I must have missed when you became a convert. Been through all his DVDs and started studying biomechanics?

 

[guy b.]

---Actually, what I said was:
One of the core concepts is to control the opponent and break his balance. Then you can hit him at will. While this might look like "prolonged contact", it is really controlling the opponent so you can do whatever you want to them.

No actually what you said was this:

the whole concept of controlling the opponent rather than just hitting the opponent is so important in CSLWCK. When you control the opponent you can do whatever you want. You can strike him, manipulate him, joint lock him, trip him, sweep him, etc.

i.e. you place control above hitting in the hierarchy of importance- "controlling rather than just hitting"

-I'm not discussing anything with you anymore.

It's entirely up to you. Interesting point to duck out though

 

[guy b.]

@KPM

I seem to remember not so long ago on the other forum, you were telling Alan he wasn't doing Wing Chun at all, just boxing or MMA. I must have missed when you became a convert. Been through all his DVDs and started studying biomechanics?

Still a bit of studying to do I would say.

Does KPM train with Robert Chu, Hendrik or one of those people?

 

[dudewingchun]

Still a bit of studying to do I would say.

Does KPM train with Robert Chu, Hendrik or one of those people?

I personally train with Alan.

 

[guy b.]

I personally train with Alan.

You are probably better off.

Did Alan move to New Zealand or somewhere like that?

 

[dudewingchun]

You are probably better off.

Did Alan move to New Zealand or somewhere like that?

What do you mean by that ?

Yea he did. Have you touched hands with Alan ? He is without a doubt in my mind the best here in NZ and Iv met quite a few people in wing chun around here.

 

[guy b.]

What do you mean by that ?

Yea he did. Have you touched hands with Alan ? He is without a doubt in my mind the best here in NZ and Iv met quite a few people in wing chun around here.

I mean you are probably better off with Alan than with those others, reason being that it is grounded in contact sport

I have touched hands with Alan; he was very strong

 

[dudewingchun]

I mean you are probably better off with Alan than with those others, reason being that it is grounded in contact sport

I have touched hands with Alan; he was very strong

Oh yea. It is good. When I get to go down there, there is a ton of sparring. Unfortunately I live like 2 1/2 hours away from his gym so cant go everyday. I go and travel down for a like 5 days as much as possible. Im going to move there asap.

Yea but its not just his strength. His skill is very good. I think people are mistaken by thinking hes only good because he appears strong. He just knows how to perfectly use his body in the methods hes learnt pretty much and its really effective. How long ago was it that you touched hands with him ?

 

[guy b.]

Oh yea. It is good. When I get to go down there, there is a ton of sparring. Unfortunately I live like 2 1/2 hours away from his gym so cant go everyday. I go and travel down for a like 5 days as much as possible. Im going to move there asap.

Yea but its not just his strength. His skill is very good. I think people are mistaken by thinking hes only good because he appears strong. He just knows how to perfectly use his body in the methods hes learnt pretty much and its really effective. How long ago was it that you touched hands with him ?

It was 6 or 7 years ago

I have had more contact with some of his guys than with him though

 

[KPM]

@KPM

I seem to remember not so long ago on the other forum, you were telling Alan he wasn't doing Wing Chun at all, just boxing or MMA. I must have missed when you became a convert. Been through all his DVDs and started studying biomechanics?

I didn't "start studying biomechanics." I have studied biomechanics pretty extensively in the past and my job requires me to understand and deal with biomechanics on a daily basis. Yeah, Alan and I had a go at it when some of his MMA clips didn't look much like Wing Chun to me. And we worked it out. Enough that I subscribed to his mentor program and have been part of it for the past year. Seeing his coursework, getting direct feedback, talking to others in the program....I've learned quite a bit about CSL since then! Certainly enough to know that Guy doesn't understand CSL like he thinks he does. And Sean has been studying directly with Alan and can vouch for what I have been saying about CSLWCK.

 

[KPM]

i.e. you place control above hitting in the hierarchy of importance- "controlling rather than just hitting"

And I also said you can control WHILE hitting. But you just go on believing whatever you want.

 

[guy b.]

I didn't "start studying biomechanics." I have studied biomechanics pretty extensively in the past and my job requires me to understand and deal with biomechanics on a daily basis. Yeah, Alan and I had a go at it when some of his MMA clips didn't look much like Wing Chun to me. And we worked it out. Enough that I subscribed to his mentor program and have been part of it for the past year. Seeing his coursework, getting direct feedback, talking to others in the program....I've learned quite a bit about CSL since then! Certainly enough to know that Guy doesn't understand CSL like he thinks he does. And Sean has been studying directly with Alan and can vouch for what I have been saying about CSLWCK.

So you've had a short and initially grumpy correspondence course with Alan, and I've sparred with quite a few of his guys in MMA and discussed their wing chun with them in person, albeit a while ago. Why do the facts here make me want to smile? I honestly don't have anything against CSL wing chun and the fighters they had that first generation were good. I do find Alan's marketing techniques, NLP and so on a bit lol, but whatever, he has to make a living doesn't he? Maybe I will discuss the creation of CSL wing chun with someone else, it is obviously a bit of a touchy subject for you in your quest for the real wing chun.

 

[guy b.]

And I also said you can control WHILE hitting. But you just go on believing whatever you want.

Body control and hitting together means that control either has to be established before hitting or exactly simultaneously with it, since hitting is over in a split second.

Your own words implicitly suggest that control is more important than "just" hitting

the whole concept of controlling the opponent rather than just hitting the opponent is so important

I was only agreeing with what you said based on experience. You appear to have lost perspective and I think even Alan would probably be arguing against your position here; he is all about affecting the other person with his body after all.

 

[LFJ]

Yeah, Alan and I had a go at it when some of his MMA clips didn't look much like Wing Chun to me. And we worked it out. Enough that I subscribed to his mentor program and have been part of it for the past year. Seeing his coursework, getting direct feedback, talking to others in the program....I've learned quite a bit about CSL since then!

Cool.

I still see a large disconnect between all that controlling stuff they do in their chi-sau and their actual fights though. None of that linking/de-linking, or "sink, press, rise" stuff seems to come out. How do you work that out?

I think the effectiveness of their fighters is due mainly to the fact that they spar hard and often, but we really just see disengaged striking and BJJ when it comes to the cage. But they do use Wing Chun power generation and elbow as I can see. Not the same strategy as WSLVT, but that's the only stuff from the "Wing Chun side" of things that appear to carry over into their actual fights. I think they'd probably be more successful if they didn't waste their time on things that don't contribute to their fights, and emphasized the stuff that does.

 

[Phobius]

I think the effectiveness of their fighters is due mainly to the fact that they spar hard and often, but we really just see disengaged striking and BJJ when it comes to the cage. But they do use Wing Chun power generation and elbow as I can see. Not the same strategy as WSLVT, but that's the only stuff from the "Wing Chun side" of things that appear to carry over into their actual fights. I think they'd probably be more successful if they didn't waste their time on things that don't contribute to their fights, and emphasized the stuff that does.

Sadly I don´t think you or I are the correct people to judge this. Problem when breeding MMA fighters are that they even if using WC as base will still need to handle circular motions as well as ground fighting. This means boxing or similar and BJJ. I do not believe WC was intended to be a system limited to straight lines but rather trained by those who already mastered the simpler basics of regular power generation such as in chinese boxing.

As such it is very hard to say that yes or no in WC being a base of their MMA fighters. Techniques are not pure WC but then again WC is a concept fighting system, not the techniques it contains. Techniques are to me ways to visualize and follow the concepts but if you can hit with a hook, by god Hit with that hook.

Same as controlling your opponent, if the way is free you still attack. I dont think there is any WC lineage that state controlling is better than hitting when way is free. Only that if way is blocked, rather than trying to go through some emphasize the priority of getting in control of your opponent. Others think it is better to hit and remove any obstacles along the way. And then there are more... as well as those who are more open minded and say you better be the type that suits you. So first understand yourself.

 

[KPM]

So you've had a short and initially grumpy correspondence course with Alan, and I've sparred with quite a few of his guys in MMA and discussed their wing chun with them in person, albeit a while ago. Why do the facts here make me want to smile? .

You have no idea what his mentorship program consists of. So just fxck off and stop addressing me.