Adding grappling

[yak sao]

It's super easy to stay standing.

Unless you have a pesky opponent who is hell bent on putting you on the ground....then it may be a bit of a problem.

 

[Steve]

Unless you have a pesky opponent who is hell bent on putting you on the ground....then it may be a bit of a problem.

that never happens... On the street.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Unless you have a pesky opponent who is hell bent on putting you on the ground....then it may be a bit of a problem.

If that happens, just point out to your opponent all the broken glass and AIDS needles and molten lava on the ground and I'm sure they'll reconsider their intent.

 

[yak sao]

If that happens, just point out to your opponent all the broken glass and AIDS needles and molten lava on the ground and I'm sure they'll reconsider their intent.

That may give him more incentive, I didn't say he was necessarily going down there with you, he might just slam you down

 

[yak sao]

...molten lava ???

 

[Tony Dismukes]

That may give him more incentive, I didn't say he was necessarily going down there with you, he might just slam you down

And here you demonstrate that you understand the situation better than all the people who say that they don't train grappling because it's too dangerous to ever go to the ground.

 

[geezer]

And here you demonstrate that you understand the situation better than all the people who say that they don't train grappling because it's too dangerous to ever go to the ground.

That's like a self fulfilling prophesy. It's too dangerous to go to the ground.... especially if you don't know any grappling!!!

....and what do you do when you end up there anyway?

 

[yak sao]

That's like a self fulfilling prophesy. It's too dangerous to go to the ground.... especially if you don't know any grappling!!!

....and what do you do when you end up there anyway?

Hell yeah It's too dangerous to go down there, there's molten lava down there !!!

 

[drop bear]

It's super easy to stay standing.

Just be mark hunt.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The freestyle stance, arms, posture are too similar to VT I think, and very confusing in the VT training drills. Something like judo which emphasises hips in, turning and leg throws more than square stance, arm and hand fighting, and lean as freestyle, is much more obviously different and less disruptive to your VT. Less likely to come out when you don't want.

I don't know WC/VT, but I'm curious about this comment. I'd rather train something that uses the stances and approach I've already trained, rather than looking for something that uses drastically different stances. I wouldn't expect learning to grapple from the same stances to cause problems - you'd be reinforcing the mechanics of stability and learning to do different movements from the same point. If the concern is that the person might unconsciously pull out a grappling technique during VT, I wouldn't expect that to happen often. In our style, there are some techniques that aren't learned until quite late (usually after 3-4 years of training). We don't use those techniques on folks who haven't learned them, regardless of their skill level, and we unconsciously avoid them when the wrong belt color (no other indicator necessary) attacks us.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Frankly GJJ/BJJ is your best bet. Most Modern Bjj clubs incorporate wrestling, Judo, Sambo, Catch and other grappling arts alongside old school Bjj. Further, GJJ schools will veer towards a self defense focus alongside a sport/MMA focus, so you can pick and choose what variety of grappling you want.

GJJ/BJJ academies are also popping up everywhere, so availability is also a benefit.

In general, a good recommendation. Just be aware that even some of the GJJ schools are getting focused on competition (BJJ or MMA) rather than self-defense. You should be able to figure that out by watching a class and asking a few questions, though.

 

[guy b.]

I'm curious about this comment. I'd rather train something that uses the stances and approach I've already trained, rather than looking for something that uses drastically different stances. I wouldn't expect learning to grapple from the same stances to cause problems - you'd be reinforcing the mechanics of stability and learning to do different movements from the same point. If the concern is that the person might unconsciously pull out a grappling technique during VT, I wouldn't expect that to happen often. In our style, there are some techniques that aren't learned until quite late (usually after 3-4 years of training). We don't use those techniques on folks who haven't learned them, regardless of their skill level, and we unconsciously avoid them when the wrong belt color (no other indicator necessary) attacks us.

Nothing uses the approach trained in VT. Learning to grapple from a similar stance is a recipe for confusion.

A good example of this can be seen with right handed Judo fighters who enter MMA and learn to box southpaw so that they can keep the judo stance and power hand forward. Generally their boxing is very weak, being weak hand back and weighted like a grappler, and their judo also suffers with timing issues and from wrong weighting (trying to strike). They are caught in a no mans land of half boxing half judo which is worse than either.

Judo fighters that learn to box conventionally do much better, swiching naturally to judo in the clinch and not suffering from interference outside of it.

 

[guy b.]

Frankly GJJ/BJJ is your best bet. Most Modern Bjj clubs incorporate wrestling, Judo, Sambo, Catch and other grappling arts alongside old school Bjj. Further, GJJ schools will veer towards a self defense focus alongside a sport/MMA focus, so you can pick and choose what variety of grappling you want.

GJJ/BJJ academies are also popping up everywhere, so availability is also a benefit.

BJJ is your best bet to learn grappling on the ground. It is far from your best bet to learn grappling on your feet. Standup grappling has been woeful in most BJJ clubs I have attended over the years, apart from those with active judo and wrestling classes, usually taught by an outside instructor, or connected to an MMA team. There are many that just do BJJ on the ground, and even if you find one that teaches some standup grappling you will be much better served at a club that specialises in it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

BJJ is your best bet to learn grappling on the ground. It is far from your best bet to learn grappling on your feet. Standup grappling has been woeful in most BJJ clubs I have attended over the years, apart from those with active judo and wrestling classes, usually taught by an outside instructor, or connected to an MMA team. There are many that just do BJJ on the ground, and even if you find one that teaches some standup grappling you will be much better served at a club that specialises in it.

That lines up with my observation, as posted in another thread mere moments ago. I'd love to find a BJJ school that still does considerable stand-up work - would love to see how it differs from Judo.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Nothing uses the approach trained in VT. Learning to grapple from a similar stance is a recipe for confusion.

A good example of this can be seen with right handed Judo fighters who enter MMA and learn to box southpaw so that they can keep the judo stance and power hand forward. Generally their boxing is very weak, being weak hand back and weighted like a grappler, and their judo also suffers with timing issues and from wrong weighting (trying to strike). They are caught in a no mans land of half boxing half judo which is worse than either.

Judo fighters that learn to box conventionally do much better, swiching naturally to judo in the clinch and not suffering from interference outside of it.

That makes sense. I'm not sure if the issue is that the Judo players are trying to stay close to what they know, or if it's that they aren't really adopting Boxing principles (because they're using their weak side for power). As I think about it, I tend to lead with my left (weaker) hand in both grappling and striking, until I enter. I suppose that's the result of having both included in our core curriculum, so they combine seamlessly.

Now if I could just get my left shoulder to start working right again...I need to get back to sparring.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I tend to lead with my left (weaker) hand in both grappling and striking, ...

IMO, it's not which hand that you put forward but which leg that you put forward that matter the most. In wrestling, you have

- "rooting leg" that you always put behind.
- "attacking leg" that you always put forward (closer to your opponent).

Since very few people can develop both legs equally, you may not have much choice if you like to

- trip your opponent with your right leg (you will need right leg forward to be close to your opponent's leg), and
- punch your opponent with your right hand (you may need right hand back so you can rotate your body for knock out "cross").

 

[Hanzou]

BJJ is your best bet to learn grappling on the ground. It is far from your best bet to learn grappling on your feet. Standup grappling has been woeful in most BJJ clubs I have attended over the years, apart from those with active judo and wrestling classes, usually taught by an outside instructor, or connected to an MMA team. There are many that just do BJJ on the ground, and even if you find one that teaches some standup grappling you will be much better served at a club that specialises in it.

Which is why I said Gjj, not Bjj. Gracie JJ schools still practice a great deal of stand up. Particularly Relson, Renzo, and Rickson schools.

Again if you observe Gracie in Action, the early UFCs featuring Royce, and Rickson's fights in Pride, you'd notice that the Gracie boys had little problem taking people down.

 

[guy b.]

IMO, it's not which hand that you put forward but which leg that you put forward that matter the most.

Absolutely

 

[guy b.]

Which is why I said Gjj, not Bjj. Gracie JJ schools still practice a great deal of stand up. Particularly Relson, Renzo, and Rickson schools.

Again if you observe Gracie in Action, the early UFCs featuring Royce, and Rickson's fights in Pride, you'd notice that the Gracie boys had little problem taking people down.

GJJ strength is the self defence curriculum. They are still very weak compared to a decent standup grappling teacher in that particular area, as I am sure they would themselves acknowledge.

 

[drop bear]

Which is why I said Gjj, not Bjj. Gracie JJ schools still practice a great deal of stand up. Particularly Relson, Renzo, and Rickson schools.

Again if you observe Gracie in Action, the early UFCs featuring Royce, and Rickson's fights in Pride, you'd notice that the Gracie boys had little problem taking people down.

They are not exactly gsp either