Adding grappling

[Hanzou]

GJJ strength is the self defence curriculum. They are still very weak compared to a decent standup grappling teacher in that particular area, as I am sure they would themselves acknowledge.

Isn't your goal self defense?

They are not exactly gap either

You're right. The Gracies actually finished fights.

 

[guy b.]

Isn't your goal self defense?

Gracie self defence curriculum is a strength of GJJ. It is not the be all and end all of either self defence or fighting in general

 

[Hanzou]

Gracie self defence curriculum is a strength of GJJ. It is not the be all and end all of either self defence or fighting in general

Who said it was? My point is that if your goal is grappling for self defense Gjj is simply the better option because that is its focus.

Also you didn't answer the question.

 

[guy b.]

My point is that if your goal is grappling for self defense Gjj is simply the better option because that is its focus.

The GJJ SD curriculum is a basic survival focused approach to self defence through grappling. It is not the best approach to self defence through grappling. Adding realistic pressure tested standing grappling skills would make it very much better. It is a basics course. Anyone interested in grappling for self defence would benefit from the GJJ SD curriculum, but could also go much further and do much better with some effort.

you didn't answer the question.

It didn't seem relevant.

 

[Hanzou]

The GJJ SD curriculum is a basic survival focused approach to self defense through grappling.

Err.. The entire system is based around self defense. It's not a course. I'm not talking about that online combatives program where at the end you earn a fake blue belt and can open up a "Gracie Garage". I'm talking about old school Gracie JJ itself from White belt to Red Belt.

It is not the best approach to self defense through grappling.

Name a better one.

Adding realistic pressure tested standing grappling skills would make it very much better.

It does that.

It is a basics course. Anyone interested in grappling for self defense would benefit from the GJJ SD curriculum, but could also go much further and do much better with some effort.

Again, I don't think we're talking about the same thing here.

It didn't seem relevant.

If your goal is self defense grappling why wouldn't you want to learn something designed precisely for that purpose?

 

[guy b.]

The entire system is based around self defense. It's not a course. I'm not talking about that online combatives program where at the end you earn a fake blue belt and can open up a "Gracie Garage".

Neither am I. Gracie JJ has a focused old style jiu jitsu self defence applications curriculum. For example demonstrated here:

The system as a whole is more based on survival than modern sport BJJ, but I wouldn't call it a comprehensive approach to self defence in any way. It will allow survival in some kinds of situations, and it always has an eye on real fighting, which is a strength. But it fails to address many aspects of fighting (and grappling) in a comprehensive way. The only way it addresses many of these aspects is through the kind of approach in the video, which is not sufficient beyond a bare bones approach. But it is good that GJJ has it.

Name a better one

Any approach building on weaker areas of GJJ would be better, for example adding training with good standup grapplers.

It does that.

There are much better ways

If your goal is self defense grappling why wouldn't you want to learn something designed precisely for that purpose?

It is one mans idea of self defence through grappling. It is BJJ as a system, which is good, but things can be added which will certainly improve it. Effective standing grappling training for example. Going to a GJJ club will simply not make you as good a standup gi grappler as going to a good judo club, for example. Having good standup grappling makes survival more likely in a self defence situation. There is nothing to say that such extra training cannot be directed in a self defense situation via the GJJ system philosophy.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

They are not exactly gsp either

You're right. The Gracies actually finished fights.

GSP has finished as many fights as Royce (13). Royce does have a better finishing percentage (65% finishes vs GSP's 48%), but GSP has a better winning percentage (93% vs Royce's 75%). GSP also was fighting much tougher opponents.

None of which is all that relevant to drop bear's original point, which is that GSP has better takedown skills than just about any Gracie I can think of.

 

[Hanzou]

Neither am I. Gracie JJ has a focused old style jiu jitsu self defence applications curriculum. For example demonstrated here:

The system as a whole is more based on survival than modern sport BJJ, but I wouldn't call it a comprehensive approach to self defence in any way. It will allow survival in some kinds of situations, and it always has an eye on real fighting, which is a strength. But it fails to address many aspects of fighting (and grappling) in a comprehensive way. The only way it addresses many of these aspects is through the kind of approach in the video, which is not sufficient beyond a bare bones approach. But it is good that GJJ has it.

Again, it would be very helpful if you stated exactly what those aspects are.

Also it should be noted that Gjj self defense extends quite a bit beyond what you saw in that vid.

Any approach building on weaker areas of GJJ would be better, for example adding training with good standup grapplers.

Which it does. Why do think you saw wrestling and Judo instructors in a Bjj school? They're not just there to teach.

There are much better ways

Such as?

It is one mans idea of self defence through grappling. It is BJJ as a system, which is good, but things can be added which will certainly improve it. Effective standing grappling training for example. Going to a GJJ club will simply not make you as good a standup gi grappler as going to a good judo club, for example. Having good standup grappling makes survival more likely in a self defence situation. There is nothing to say that such extra training cannot be directed in a self defense situation via the GJJ system philosophy.

No, having good grappling period makes survival more likely in a self defense situation. Standing grappling skills don't mean much if a person takes you down (or knocks you down) mounts you, and proceeds to start punching you in the face.

Now you may say that your superior stand up grappling would prevent that from happening, but here's the problem; your goal is to also take this person to the ground and control them. What happens when that person you're pinning slips out of your hold and slaps on a choke or joint lock? Again that's comprehensive grappling versus specialized grappling.

Which is why you have wrestling and Judo instructors in Bjj schools.

 

[Hanzou]

GSP has finished as many fights as Royce (13). Royce does have a better finishing percentage (65% finishes vs GSP's 48%), but GSP has a better winning percentage (93% vs Royce's 75%). GSP also was fighting much tougher opponents.

None of which is all that relevant to drop bear's original point, which is that GSP has better takedown skills than just about any Gracie I can think of.

Yeah, that's why it's called "joking" Tony. I'm well aware that GSP is a fantastic grappler.

 

[guy b.]

Why do think you saw wrestling and Judo instructors in a Bjj school? They're not just there to teach.

I have trained BJJ for many years and in many different places in the UK and Europe. Since the focus of bjj is on ground grappling, the standard of standup grappling is just not as good (in general) as it is at good wrestling and judo clubs which focus on standup grappling. Where such schools bring in quality outside teachers the standard in those places is generally better. But it isn't the same as a judo or wrestling school because the quality of opponent is just not there.

When Roger Gracie came to London for example, he trained judo at the Budokwai in order to improve his standup. He could of course have focused on the Gracie SD curriculum for standup, and trained with his own students only. But he didn't, because he isn't stupid.

In the UK there has been a lot of cross training over the years, with good judo people coming into bjj (e.g. Dave Coles, Graeme Welsh) and good bjj people cross training in judo (e.g. Carlson's guys). There is also the MMA influence which tends to have more of a wrestling influence. I have never met anyone as resistant to the idea that training in standing grappling will help the BJJ competitor in their development as a total grappler, and vice versa. I think you are simply trolling?

Such as?

Cross training standup grappling. Cross training with good strikers.

Standing grappling skills don't mean much if a person takes you down (or knocks you down) mounts you, and proceeds to start punching you in the face.

Lol, you are trolling. Having good standup grappling makes you less likely to be taken down. Improving standup grappling will improve outcomes for the BJJ trained person.

Adding BJJ is a good idea for the average wing chun trained person because it will improve their chances of survival should the fight end up on the ground. It is a good first step. But adding standup grappling as well is better, because it reduces the chance of the fight ending up on the ground in the first place.

 

[Hanzou]

I have trained BJJ for many years and in many different places in the UK and Europe. Since the focus of bjj is on ground grappling, the standard of standup grappling is just not as good (in general) as it is at good wrestling and judo clubs which focus on standup grappling. Where such schools bring in quality outside teachers the standard in those places is generally better. But it isn't the same as a judo or wrestling school because the quality of opponent is just not there.

Its important to note that neither Wrestling or Judo are self defense systems. Both teach you primarily how to deal with other wrestlers and Judoka. Your typical wrestling and Judo school isn't going to show you how to deal with someone punching or kicking you for example.

When Roger Gracie came to London for example, he trained judo at the Budokwai in order to improve his standup. He could of course have focused on the Gracie SD curriculum for standup, and trained with his own students only. But he didn't, because he isn't stupid.

Er... Roger is a professional MMA and sport Bjj fighter. Of course he wouldn't focus on the Gracie SD, he's going to focus on various aspects of his game to make him a better overall fighter in a sport context. Yeah, if you're seeking to fight professionally, I would definitely recommend learning wrestling and Judo alongside your Bjj. Of course its important to note that no one enters MMA without a background in Bjj. Think about that for a minute.

In the UK there has been a lot of cross training over the years, with good judo people coming into bjj (e.g. Dave Coles, Graeme Welsh) and good bjj people cross training in judo (e.g. Carlson's guys). There is also the MMA influence which tends to have more of a wrestling influence. I have never met anyone as resistant to the idea that training in standing grappling will help the BJJ competitor in their development as a total grappler, and vice versa. I think you are simply trolling?

Uh, because we're talking about self defense, not competing in MMA or sport grappling. Further in either of those contexts, you're expected to know Bjj anyway.

Cross training standup grappling. Cross training with good strikers.

And again, which grappling art do you believe does it better than Bjj? You're not going to be cross-training with good strikers in Judo or Wrestling, or even learning how to deal with strikers in either wrestling or Judo. Bjj specifically teaches you how to deal with strikers while grappling.

Lol, you are trolling. Having good standup grappling makes you less likely to be taken down.

But it never makes you immune to the takedown. So its pretty important to know what to do if you get taken down.

And btw, you DO learn good stand up grappling in Bjj.

Improving standup grappling will improve outcomes for the BJJ trained person.

Of course it would. But we're not talking about a Bjj trained person. We're talking about someone with NO grappling experience seeking grappling instruction for self defense.

Adding BJJ is a good idea for the average wing chun trained person because it will improve their chances of survival should the fight end up on the ground. It is a good first step. But adding standup grappling as well is better, because it reduces the chance of the fight ending up on the ground in the first place.

Um no. Bjj teaches them self defense grappling, which is better than learning sport grappling. Now, if a person is seeking to be a competitor in MMA or sport Bjj, adding wrestling or Judo are fantastic ideas (especially wrestling). However, even in those cases you need Bjj to be competitive.

 

[guy b.]

which grappling art do you believe does it better than Bjj? You're not going to be cross-training with good strikers in Judo or Wrestling, or even learning how to deal with strikers in either wrestling or Judo. Bjj specifically teaches you how to deal with strikers while grappling.

GJJ teaches you to deal with striking and standup grappling in a rudimentary way. The strategies it teaches are reasonable for a ground focused fighter, or for an average person interested in basic survival with a ground focus. But the skill set it imparts is limited in the extreme.

The best way for anyone to gain skills in the areas that GJJ is weaker, assuming that they started with that, would be to go and train those skill sets with people who are good at them - i.e. decent strikers and standup grapplers. There is no reason in the world for anyone to limit themselves to a single system approach. There is also nothing stopping the BJJ focused person who cross trains from utilising the new skills they gain through the framework of the GJJ strategic approach to fighting.

we're talking about self defense, not competing in MMA or sport grappling

There is no such thing as "self defence". There is only fighting. GJJ has a particular strategic approach to fighting which is realistic for some kinds of real fight situations, and less so for others. Anyone that wishes to utilise that strategic approach (which is the most valuable aspect of the GJJ self defence curriculum) is not prevented from doing so by cross training.

and again, which grappling art do you believe does it better than Bjj? You're not going to be cross-training with good strikers in Judo or Wrestling, or even learning how to deal with strikers in either wrestling or Judo. Bjj specifically teaches you how to deal with strikers while grappling.

BJJ techniques for this are rudimentary and basic. You are better served by understanding the approach of standup strikers and standup grapplers by doing those things with people who are good at them.

GJJ takes a particular strategic approach to combat through which any cross training in standup grappling or striking can be focused, if you so desire.

you DO learn good stand up grappling in Bjj

Lol, please stop trolling. I can't really face continuing this insane conversation. GJJ has a strategic and systematic approach to fighting, that is true, and it is a strength. But you will not be good in the areas where GJJ makes rudimentary suggestions unless you specifically train with people who are good.

 

[Hanzou]

GJJ teaches you to deal with striking and standup grappling in a rudimentary way. The strategies it teaches are reasonable for a ground focused fighter, or for an average person interested in basic survival with a ground focus. But the skill set it imparts is limited in the extreme.

I'm curious; How is a comprehensive grappling approach that includes standing and ground grappling, locks, chokes, and strike countering "limited" yet a specialized approach that only involves standing grappling versus another standing grappler from the exact same skill set "not limited"?

The best way for anyone to gain skills in the areas that GJJ is weaker, assuming that they started with that, would be to go and train those skill sets with people who are good at them - i.e. decent strikers and standup grapplers. There is no reason in the world for anyone to limit themselves to a single system approach. There is also nothing stopping the BJJ focused person who cross trains from utilizing the new skills they gain through the framework of the GJJ strategic approach to fighting.

We ARE talking about someone who is cross training. You do remember the title of this thread right? We are assuming that this person is coming from a striking base who already has exposure to going against good strikers. Bjj will reinforce that background since it teaches you to fight from an unfamiliar range (the ground) along with dealing with someone trying to punch you in the face while you're attempting to grapple. Again, that type of training isn't available in your typical wrestling and Judo schools.

There is no such thing as "self defense . There is only fighting. GJJ has a particular strategic approach to fighting which is realistic for some kinds of real fight situations, and less so for others. Anyone that wishes to utilize that strategic approach (which is the most valuable aspect of the GJJ self defense curriculum) is not prevented from doing so by cross training.

Uh, yes there is. If you're a grappler training how to deal with someone on top of you and punching or stabbing you in the face that is self defense training. If you're a grappler only training on how to defend against other grapplers from your style, that's sport training. If you're a grappler in a style that purposely bans certain moves because its against the rules, you're training for sport.

BJJ techniques for this are rudimentary and basic.

And very effective. Self defense kind of has to be rudimentary and basic. Complex and fancy isn't a good idea.

GJJ takes a particular strategic approach to combat through which any cross training in standup grappling or striking can be focused, if you so desire.

As a wrestler or a Judoka, you can definitely cross-train with strikers. However, that isn't the same thing as having your system being designed with that in mind. Further, you have to seek out someone to cross train with, when its far more efficient to simply train in the system that already does it by default.

Lol, please stop trolling. I can't really face continuing this insane conversation. GJJ has a strategic and systematic approach to fighting, that is true, and it is a strength. But you will not be good in the areas where GJJ makes rudimentary suggestions unless you specifically train with people who are good.

So you're saying that Bjj practitioners never train with skilled strikers or stand up grapplers, yet you yourself said that you've been in Bjj schools "for many years" where they actually have wrestling and Judo instructors? Further, you're saying that after all the various ways that Bjj has been tested against other styles over the years that Bjj somehow isn't good against other grappling and striking styles?

Insane indeed.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

IMO, it's not which hand that you put forward but which leg that you put forward that matter the most.

For us, that's the same thing. We rarely present cross-stances (where one hand is forward and the other foot), because of the easy off-balance this presents on one side.

 

[guy b.]

How is a comprehensive grappling approach that includes standing and ground grappling, locks, chokes, and strike countering "limited" yet a specialized approach that only involves standing grappling versus another standing grappler from the exact same skill set "not limited"?

There is no better way to learn to counter striking or standing grappling (or ground grappling) than to learn them and to practice them frequently.

A person who is proficient at boxing will find it easy to get past the arms safely and clinch. A person who is proficient at wrestling or judo is also proficient at spoiling the attacks of wrestlers and judoka enabling them to stay standing more effectively or to end up on the ground in a better position.

For that matter a person who is proficient at bjj is proficient at spoiling and escaping the attacks of bjjers, giving them the time and ability to stand back up, stall, or attack with strikes on the ground if they so desire.

The Gracies have produced a particular systematic approach to combat which may suit the ground focused fighter (although they would obviously benefit from also training in striking and standing grappling for the reasons outlined above), but is unlikely to suit the striking focused fighter in a system with its own strategic approach.

Complex and fancy isn't a good idea

Complex and fancy is not the flip side of the rudimentary and basic approaches to combat taught in the Gracie SD curriculum.

its far more efficient to simply train in the system that already does it by default.

GJJ takes a ground grappling focused approach to real fighting which is contradictory to many other systematised approaches to fighting. For this reason it is a good backup system for the primary striker but not a good choice as an overall approach, unless they wish their striking system to take a back seat. Furthermore, many of the standing methods taught in GJJ are naïve and even dangerous in certain situations. Without real quality experience of standup grappling, striking and weapons, the person who only trains GJJ as an answer to everything is unlikely to be able to make these approaches work in reality. Direct live experience is everything in fighting. Applications and plans tend to fall to bits under pressure.