Adding grappling

[JowGaWolf]

I think this is a sensible enough approach. Getting a ground game is a long slow process over the age of about 40 for most people. Since you already have ability standing why not focus your efforts on remaining there or getting back there if you are not there? VT itself takes a lot of training to remain usable.

I think there's an assumption that anyone who learns BJJ will be able to defend themselves on the ground and that's not always the case. I know people like their BJJ and MMA, but don't make the same mistake many Kung Fu students make. Just because you take it doesn't mean you'll be good at using it in a real fight. Nor does it means that you'll have enough skill in BJJ to beat someone who may be stronger or faster.

I think people who think BJJ is an ultimate solution run the risk of that other martial artist have made by thinking that their fighting system is the ultimate solution. I'm pretty sure that the boy with grappling skills thought he had it in the bag. But even BJJ fighters lose.

If I have 5 years of striking experience and 1 year of BJJ experience. I will most likely try to win the fighting with my striking because it's my strength in comparison to my BJJ. If I try to win the fight on the ground with 1 year of BJJ then I could seriously be asking for trouble by not fighting in my area of strength. In this scenario I could see myself using BJJ as you stated by trying to recover from being on the ground so I can quickly get up and use my striking experience.

 

[yak sao]

If I have 5 years of striking experience and 1 year of BJJ experience. I will most likely try to win the fighting with my striking because it's my strength in comparison to my BJJ. If I try to win the fight on the ground with 1 year of BJJ then I could seriously be asking for trouble by not fighting in my area of strength. In this scenario I could see myself using BJJ as you stated by trying to recover from being on the ground so I can quickly get up and use my striking experience.

This has been my position all along, fight your fight. Don't box a boxer, don't wrestle a wrestler. If I tried what little ground game I have against an experienced grappler, I'm toast. The best strategy for me is to regain my feet where I can use my strengths against him.

 

[drop bear]

Exept sitting on someone and punching them is a better position than both trading punches standing.

 

[Phobius]

Groundgame is still good to be better than the boxer, after all. Do not box a boxer.

 

[drop bear]

This has been my position all along, fight your fight. Don't box a boxer, don't wrestle a wrestler. If I tried what little ground game I have against an experienced grappler, I'm toast. The best strategy for me is to regain my feet where I can use my strengths against him.

Standing up is applying your ground game.

 

[yak sao]

Standing up is applying your ground game.

yes I suppose it is, but my point is to not attempt to out wrestle them. My strong suit is standing on my feet.

 

[Hanzou]

I think this is a sensible enough approach. Getting a ground game is a long slow process over the age of about 40 for most people. Since you already have ability standing why not focus your efforts on remaining there or getting back there if you are not there? VT itself takes a lot of training to remain usable.

Because gravity is an ever-present force, and it doesn't take much to lose your footing and end up fighting off your back. The idea that you can stop all things from taking you off your feet is nonsense, and is right up there with ki-master martial arts. I've seen master Judo players get dunked by high school wrestlers with simple double leg takedowns and ankle picks, and those guys are masters of maintaining balance.

 

[Hanzou]

I think there's an assumption that anyone who learns BJJ will be able to defend themselves on the ground and that's not always the case. I know people like their BJJ and MMA, but don't make the same mistake many Kung Fu students make. Just because you take it doesn't mean you'll be good at using it in a real fight. Nor does it means that you'll have enough skill in BJJ to beat someone who may be stronger or faster.

I think people who think BJJ is an ultimate solution run the risk of that other martial artist have made by thinking that their fighting system is the ultimate solution. I'm pretty sure that the boy with grappling skills thought he had it in the bag. But even BJJ fighters lose.

If I have 5 years of striking experience and 1 year of BJJ experience. I will most likely try to win the fighting with my striking because it's my strength in comparison to my BJJ. If I try to win the fight on the ground with 1 year of BJJ then I could seriously be asking for trouble by not fighting in my area of strength. In this scenario I could see myself using BJJ as you stated by trying to recover from being on the ground so I can quickly get up and use my striking experience.

What a silly argument. Are you trying to imply that Kung Fu makes you able to stop any assailant trying to punch you in the face? I have vids of Kung Fu masters with over 30 years of training getting KO'd by a random kids with a few months of MMA training.

No one here is saying that Bjj makes you invincible on the ground. Yeah, you can take Bjj and still get your face caved in if you run across the wrong person. However, that applies to ANY martial art. My argument is that Bjj can give you the tools to get out of that situation if you practice them enough. Additionally over the course of the last 2 decades Bjj has incorporated aspects of other grappling systems to make it very comprehensive. Further, since Bjj is so different than Kung Fu, adding it to your training regimen won't impede your progress in your base style.

 

[Buka]

Bjj is like sex. Some people think it's over rated. Some people just don't like it. Some people have heard all about it but haven't had the opportunity.

I don't think anybody doing any form of stand up fighting should do any Bjj at all. Not one little bit.
There's enough people in this world that can kick my ***, I don't need any more of them.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The long range techniques of wrestling (level change and shooting in) are non-integratable with wing chun,

For the record, level changing and shooting in aren't really meant to be long range techniques. Some wrestlers in MMA (especially in the early days of the sport) would shoot from long range in an attempt to avoid the striking range, but that is becoming less effective now that all MMA fighters know how to wrestle. A wrestling shot should ideally start from no further than the range where you can hit your opponent with a jab. A little closer than that is probably even better.

I'm coming at this question from a different angle. I'm already fairly comfortable with long range striking and very comfortable with grappling. I'm learning WT to polish my skills in that transitional range where strikes and clinching are both possible. In this range, I don't think striking and grappling are opposed - I think they complement each other. Hitting someone can open them up for a takedown or lock or control position. Off-balancing someone with a sweep or a pull or a push can set them up for a strike. If you try to hit or grab your opponent and they use their arms to present an obstacle, then being able to clear that obstruction (whether with a pak sao or a wrestling style arm drag) should be a useful skill.

I have some experience in this range already (primarily Muay Thai clinch plus some dirty boxing), but from working with @yak sao I can tell that he has a better game in that area than I do, so I'm having fun learning what he has to teach. In the long term I think it will integrate well with what I already do.

 

[geezer]

I think Tony's got it absolutely right. WC is in it's element right before the clinch. It's weakness is that most WC guys don't know what to do when it becomes a clinch and/or goes to the ground. If you're good with both areas, you've got a good game!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

most WC guys don't know what to do when it becomes a clinch and/or goes to the ground.

I'll let the BJJ guys to address the ground issue. I only try to address the "clinch" issue here.

It's not that hard to integrate "clinch" into the WC stick hand training if you don't care about the term "pure WC". For example, during the WC sticky hand training, you can also train

- head lock,
- over hook,
- under hook,
- waist surrounding,
- bear hug,
- ...

At the same time, you can also train how to counter it.

For example, if you can straight your arm straight up in the air, nobody on this planet will be able to "under hook" you. It's such a simple counter skill that should be included in any MA system.

IMO, this is a good starting point for WC system to include the grappling.

 

[Hanzou]

I'll let the BJJ guys to address the ground issue. I only try to address the "clinch" issue here.

It's not that hard to integrate "clinch" into the WC stick hand training if you don't care about the term "pure WC". For example, during the WC sticky hand training, you can also train

- head lock,
- over hook,
- under hook,
- waist surrounding,
- bear hug,
- ...

At the same time, you can also train how to counter it.

For example, if you can straight your arm straight up in the air, nobody on this planet will be able to "under hook" you. It's such a simple counter skill that should be included in any MA system.

IMO, this is a good starting point for WC system to include the grappling.

Gracie JJ teaches a lot of takedowns from the clinch so if you learn a stand up system with a good clinch set up, Gjj will compliment it quite well.

 

[geezer]

Because gravity is an ever-present force....

Random thought. In the future it's likely that people will engage in H2H combat in places where gravity is not an "ever-present force," that is to say in low-zero gravity environments. Without gravity, striking arts will really suffer, both in power generation and in the ability to control range and position (since every action causes an equal and opposite reaction). If you punch or kick without holding on to something, the force will send your body gliding backwards. But many aspects of grappling would be relatively unaffected, and others could be selectively adapted.

If anybody else is thinking about this, I would expect to see this reflected in science fiction movies. Maybe it already has been, but I haven't noticed?

 

[yak sao]

Random thought. In the future it's likely that people will engage in H2H combat in places where gravity is not an "ever-present force," that is to say in low-zero gravity environments. Without gravity, striking arts will really suffer, both in power generation and in the ability to control range and position (since every action causes an equal and opposite reaction). If you punch or kick without holding on to something, the force will send your body gliding backwards. But many aspects of grappling would be relatively unaffected, and others could be selectively adapted.

If anybody else is thinking about this, I would expect to see this reflected in science fiction movies. Maybe it already has been, but I haven't noticed?

I think if you're holding on to the person you're hitting you would be ok, unless they're wearing a space helmet, then head shots would be pretty much useless.
Throws would not amount to much, at least from a damaging standpoint, and of course, the ground game would be nullified because there ain't no ground...gravitationally speaking.
Good grief, I've got to get out more.

 

[yak sao]

found this...it's been done.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Random thought. In the future it's likely that people will engage in H2H combat in places where gravity is not an "ever-present force," that is to say in low-zero gravity environments. Without gravity, striking arts will really suffer, both in power generation and in the ability to control range and position (since every action causes an equal and opposite reaction). If you punch or kick without holding on to something, the force will send your body gliding backwards. But many aspects of grappling would be relatively unaffected, and others could be selectively adapted.

If anybody else is thinking about this, I would expect to see this reflected in science fiction movies. Maybe it already has been, but I haven't noticed?

Some of Steve Barnes's novels address this. "Null boxing" is a form of zero-gee combat sport. Barnes is a martial artist in real life, so he's thought it through.

 

[Lameman]

Wait a minute, doesn't wing chun have a lot of grappling in it? A lot of the stuff on you tube (wing chun & tai chi) has a lot of, at least potential, grappling. Now, I don't think it has a lot of ground fighting, but it wasn't designed for that. It's usually fairly easy to stay standing and make your opponant pay for over-commiting to a takedown.

 

[Steve]

Some of Steve Barnes's novels address this. "Null boxing" is a form of zero-gee combat sport. Barnes is a martial artist in real life, so he's thought it through.

I enjoyed his Aubrey Knight books. Read them many, many years ago.

 

[Steve]

Wait a minute, doesn't wing chun have a lot of grappling in it? A lot of the stuff on you tube (wing chun & tai chi) has a lot of, at least potential, grappling. Now, I don't think it has a lot of ground fighting, but it wasn't designed for that. It's usually fairly easy to stay standing and make your opponant pay for over-commiting to a takedown.

It's super easy to stay standing.