Pads work in wing chun
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ShortBridge
3rd Black Belt
I teach with focus mitts, thai pads and some protective gear.Just as frequently or maybe more we train without it. Depends on what we're working on. You have to know that you can deliver with force. If control or principles slip, then we slow things down and go back to empty hands.
This video demonstrates how the VT trainer should draw the trainee to chase center of mass and triangulate force. We don't use rotational punches like Western Boxing, and over-rotation is something we are constantly trying to train out of our habits in chi-sau/gwo-sau practice. If the trainer is using focus mitts incorrectly, for our purposes, it will indeed potentially de-train VT behaviors. I think this is a great way to use focus mitts for VT, if they are to be used at all.
Danny T
Senior Master
That video is the much more like what we do as to mitt work.
Yes, we use focus mitts, hitting pads, shields, etc. They are a great way to train timing, reflexes, structure testing, space occupation & power delivery. We also do not do them like bolted-on boxing drills (ie, we don't work present numbered combinations as in boxing mitt drills once past beginners learning stage) & they are geared directly towards building & testing WC skills (Centerline occupation, gate theories, whole body structural alignment, footwork, facing & refacing, simultaneous offense/defense, etc).
This is typically done by using one mitt to simulate an attack (straight/round/hook, high/low), with the other setup for receiving a punch. This is done in a progressive manner starting with single attacks and working up to random free flow. A little like what Ernie is doing, but also different in that is we typically don't hold the pads off to the sides for the trainee to chase & hit. While I understand why he does this, we try to gear everything towards having the person being drilled aiming for the mitt holder's COM vs. chasing a target (mitt). It takes a bit of a learning curve for the mitt holder to get things right in the free flow stage, but IMO gives a good overall feel for WC application.
This is typically done by using one mitt to simulate an attack (straight/round/hook, high/low), with the other setup for receiving a punch. This is done in a progressive manner starting with single attacks and working up to random free flow. A little like what Ernie is doing, but also different in that is we typically don't hold the pads off to the sides for the trainee to chase & hit. While I understand why he does this, we try to gear everything towards having the person being drilled aiming for the mitt holder's COM vs. chasing a target (mitt). It takes a bit of a learning curve for the mitt holder to get things right in the free flow stage, but IMO gives a good overall feel for WC application.
PiedmontChun
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Practicing punching with power can always be done on a heavy bag or a wall bag, but mitt training does allow you to combine footwork with punching power, having to re-face an opponent moving both laterally and forward / back, and focus on linking the elbow with your step (or adduction for WT folks), so for that reason is a good training tool in my opinion. This would mean holding a mitt over the centerline, or possibly slightly higher, but centered never the less. Holding mitts out to the left or right of center of mass makes sense for boxing punch mechanics I suppose, but not WC/WT/VT.
Holding mitts on the centerline...holding mitts to the side....I think it depends on what you are trying to accomplish. If a person can hit a wall bag and imagine that are driving into the center of an opponent, why can't they hit mitts held out to the side and imagine they are driving into the center of an opponent?
PiedmontChun
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If they want to stand perfectly still and hold a mitt to the side, then it doesn't matter. But you might as well hit a wall bag for that kind of static training.
I am putting myself in the shoes of one being trained, so just my opinion here on why I said what I did: 1) It can be a bit disorienting to punch a moving target without focusing on center of mass. Your eyes seeing a person move but instead of your body moving / aligning with that moving target of a person, focusing on striking a small arbitrary object way out in left (or right) field instead? Seems counterproductive for an art that strives to chase center of mass and not hands.
2) A trainer holding the mitt firmly and centered means a more solid target. I am envisioning chain punching, not necessarily rapid, but nonetheless one punch after another in some form. Practically speaking, hitting a mitt repeatedly with any real power makes it move around, and if its held out to the side it would require you to constantly adjust in an artificial way to where the mitt is. There have been times I've hit a mitt and if the trainer was not squared behind it, it was easy to glance off. Holding it tight and centered just avoids that.
Agree with what Piedmont said above. If you are training solo, hit something stationary. Or something moving like double end bag if that's your thing (I personally don't see much use for training to hit moving targets like that in WC though).
But, if you have someone to train mitts with with, it's bad practice to not train to hit COM of the live person you are training with and go off-center chasing a target mitt. Because in WC, we don't to chase hands/targets (or shouldn't), so why train those bad habits with the mitts?
Disclaimer for those that might assume I'm talking in absolutes, this is all 'IMO' of course LOL
But, if you have someone to train mitts with with, it's bad practice to not train to hit COM of the live person you are training with and go off-center chasing a target mitt. Because in WC, we don't to chase hands/targets (or shouldn't), so why train those bad habits with the mitts?
Disclaimer for those that might assume I'm talking in absolutes, this is all 'IMO' of course LOL
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- Thread Starter
- #32
Double end bag (or other elasticated target) trains hand eye coordination without connection of body.
I think better worked with body pads and gloves on the target, because then you are chasing the actual person with real stepping and they are actually hitting back, albeit lightly.
In the clip Ernie is trying to get the guy to step in and punch and I think a reasonable way to do so with pads, assuming before that he is in throwing shots to dodge or block with the pads, then drawing the guy to step and punch.
What I really don't like with focus pads though is that they encourage a hit for hit, tit for tat mentality that is not wing chun, or only of limited use to wing chun. But I think in context that clip is fine for what it does.
I like to also use 16 ounce gloves in place of focus mitts so the person punching can still strike a padded surface while I can then counter without worrying about potentially cutting my opponent with a focus mitt while offering a realistic counter. It means the person primarily striking works their attack and covering up afterwards while the person with the gloves works their countering, distance and timing. Of course keeping the gloves/mitts as close to your head as possible is a must so the striker gets actually used to striking the intended target - seen countless people drilling pads with the hands way apart which then results in people training to punch either side of the head!
dudewingchun
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Havent really read the replies before I typed this. But In Chu sau lei wing chun we have pad work. Well Sifu Alan does atleast, not sure if Robert chu does. I think it helps. My first school made us chain punch the pads still, then moving and then while doing triangle stepping while punching pads but it wasnt consistent and we didnt get taught how to hold pads properly so I didnt get too much benefit out of it. I prefer CSL way. The body mechanics develop alot of power, and It trains how I would punch in a fight, not just standing in yjkym and doing straight chain punches. I see a few people comment on Alans videos who have never actually met him and been explained to the theory of what he does..they all see to think its not wing chun theory or application..it is very much wing chun, you quickly understand that when learning from him. Of all the Wing chun people iv met he is the best hands down.
Dang! I'll bet he's even better with his hands up!
...Seriously though, I've never met him, or anybody whose trained with him, but I follow what he posts on Youtube and really respect what he's doing.
- Thread Starter
- #36
Can you elaborate of the CSL approach? How do you feel the power generation fiffers from other lines of wing chun?
I have some experience of this system but it would be interesting to hear why you feel it is a more complete approach that others since you train it and I don't.
dudewingchun
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Im not the best expert on it as I have only recently just started training CSL. I used to do Ip ching style. The main difference is that CSL incorporate using your body to complement each hand structure when doing the forms. Like when doing the tan sau going out in the 1st section of Siu nim tao. Most wing chun there body stays still whille the tan sao goes out. In CSL your body is rising while going out- sinking while coming in. And Im not good enough to explain why.. but it just seems much more effective then anything I learned at my old school. When I visited Alans school for the first time.. All his students had better structure then me and theyd only been there for a maximum of 2 years.. was quite a revealing experience. Too me it seemed like most wing chuns think that chi sao/fighting is done with your arms/elbow and your body only turns. Chu sau lei is your whole body is powering your arms.. your elbow and hip connect. I never got taught that in my old school. Its similar to CST but not at the same time. CST has the best structure apart from CSL people from my experience. But its a different way of doing things ( not nim tao, tai gung etc). Its like learning to control pressure by inches. Hard to explain.. also Iv only really experienced a few flavours of wing chun.
It took me a little bit to get used to the way that they do things.. and it may not seem like wing chun to some people. But when you start learning it in person and get it explained to you and shown in person it makes a whole lot of sense. Then when you start sparring you can actually defend yourself. Trust me.. I reckon most wing chun people would just crumble going to that school and sparring. Alan & his students spar almost everyday. Not cooperatively. Compared to everyone I met since I started Ip ching.. left and spent a few months going round meeting some people from WSL & CST plus just other stuff.. I can say that Alan is the most skilled by far. Not that other people are not good. WSL & CST guys are actually really good most the time. But one thing that is super clear is since I started training with Alan.. I can actually spar with a mate who does boxing/muay thai and can match his pace and not look like a retard like most wing chun videos. My mate started boxing like a month or two before I left my main school, a little while in we started sparring.. and it didnt take long at all for me to start getting owned/not been able to catch up with his hands..if I had stayed I know for a fact that each week I would be staying the same while he got better in real combat, I realised the limits of what I was learning ( plus lots of issues with a crazy teacher) and eventually left and spent a while researching different lineages and opening my mind up andthen eventually visited Alans school and now I have dedicated to relearning the system under CSL ( and Cst but not bothered to explain that). CSL simply has made me be able to fight alot better then I ever could.. and this is only from a few months learning.. I still have soo much to learn now. I dont think any wing chun that has all its weight in the heels has any structure power now though.
When I watch Alans videos I see all the body structure/general wing chun principles in Chu sau lei and it makes sense. Looking at his videos from your own wing chun's lineage point of view may not make sense as they have different reasons for doing things.. All the reasons of doing things in CSL is because its been proven to be more effective/work then some other ways. Like our lan sao is mid sternum height instead of being shoulder height. I just personally think it works better for myself and I can use it better then other stuff I have learnt. Other people may not have the same experience. Excuse my poor grammar lol But this is just my personal experience with Chu sau lei.. I love it, its great and it works for me. Alan is tough as nails and hits like a truck. Watching him just waste my mate who doesnt do wing chun was awesome.. Finally get to meet a Sifu who can fight for real. I did Ip ching from when I was 11 till I was 20 ( just the usual 2- 4 classes a week for 2 hours a class type deal , plus an hour a day at home..).. I went there and got sassed by students of 2 years or less.. showed me that without body structure you really have no substance to your hand techniques.. Been able to relax and link/delink your joints at the right time is a very useful skill.. Sorry this ended up being way longer then I intended. Hopefully you can get a little insight. Alan himself is a really nice dude & good teacher. He also cares about his students and they have a good atmosphere at the school. It just doesnt look like ip man movie wing chun.. but its 100% wing chun.. all the standup is wing chun.
What is your experience ?
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Dude -- that was a really useful post explaining how specific aspects of Alan Orr's CSL such as body and hip engagement, linking and de-linking, daily sparring, etc. have helped your WC improve. Noticeably absent was any attitude of superiority or that CSL is the best and only true lineage. Thank you for an honest and informative post.
BTW -- although there no Alan Orr people around here to check out, I do pay attention to his online stuff and have noticed that a good deal of it seems to corroborate things I'm discovering through the DTE/MMA Escrima people I train with --especially the rising and sinking body engagement and the strong, yet balanced forward pressure from the hips (that casual observers wrongly dismiss as leaning). If Mr. Orr ever presents a seminar in this area, I would be very interested in attending. Don't imagine he gets too many old guys like me, though!
BTW -- although there no Alan Orr people around here to check out, I do pay attention to his online stuff and have noticed that a good deal of it seems to corroborate things I'm discovering through the DTE/MMA Escrima people I train with --especially the rising and sinking body engagement and the strong, yet balanced forward pressure from the hips (that casual observers wrongly dismiss as leaning). If Mr. Orr ever presents a seminar in this area, I would be very interested in attending. Don't imagine he gets too many old guys like me, though!
dudewingchun
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Dude -- that was a really useful post explaining how specific aspects of Alan Orr's CSL such as body and hip engagement, linking and de-linking, daily sparring, etc. have helped your WC improve. Noticeably absent was any attitude of superiority or that CSL is the best and only true lineage. Thank you for an honest and informative post.
BTW -- although there no Alan Orr people around here to check out, I do pay attention to his online stuff and have noticed that a good deal of it seems to corroborate things I'm discovering through the DTE/MMA Escrima people I train with --especially the rising and sinking body engagement and the strong, yet balanced forward pressure from the hips (that casual observers wrongly dismiss as leaning). If Mr. Orr ever presents a seminar in this area, I would be very interested in attending. Don't imagine he gets too many old guys like me, though!
Allgood. Think I went a bit overboard on the reply though. Yea I just think it works great for me. But I still respect every other lineage around. Yes thats one thing alot of people think .. that we are leaning. We arent leaning we are projecting our COG forward ( I think). Im still wrapping my head around it all. Alan actually knows escrima aswell Im pretty sure. Ahh hes in the uk right now doing some seminars. So if you were around there then you may be able to catch one.
- Thread Starter
- #40
There is plenty in there that points to the fact that dudewingchun thinks CSL is superior to other approaches. For example "most wing chuns think that chi sao/fighting is done with your arms/elbow and your body only turns". This is normal for anyone training any system.
I think that you are happy to tolerate this and not get offended (as any normal person would) because it is not coming from a WSL VT person. I think that you must be heavily biased against WSL VT because of the arguments you experienced on the other forum. Please attempt to forget these and to move forward with a positive attitude to discusion.
