On Iran
- Thread starter Bill Mattocks
- Start date
The US will still be here, it's just that all of this is going to happen if we get involved in Iran.
This is a list of consequences I'd rather not face and I think that I can avoid it...one way or another.
How do you know that they even want a nuke?
The last IAEA report has turned out to be largely a piece of war propaganda that incorporated all kinds of bogus charges that were previously panned by Nuclear watchdogs.
http://www.fpif.org/blog/do_irans_objections_to_the_iaea_report_deserve_consideration
The state of Israel is not my friend. I have people who are my friends, not governments.
At any rate, I'm not an anti-semite. I have priorities.
1. My family.
2. My friends.
3. My property.
I want the best outcome I can possibly get for these things. Going along with an attack on Iran or watching while the country that encloses my property performs it, is not going to deliver a very good outcome. Look at the list I posted above.
If Israel attacks Iran without us, it will be FAR less disruptive then if we went to war and exacerbated all of our financial problems, pissed off Russia and China, and torched the Bill of Rights. The biggest problem that an Israeli strike on Iran will be the subsequent disruption in the global economy. The oil that comes out of the region is vital and this disruption could very well trigger a Depression.
Therefore, our political leaders need to condemn this possible strike. They need to threaten to disavow ties to their government if they do. They need to demand diplomacy, better intelligence, and good faith.
That's how we avert this thing.
Big Don
Sr. Grandmaster
Not when my government is doing things like this. Wikileaks released a cable that showed how the US positioned the new IAEA head.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/us-embassy-cables-documents/230076
The last IAEA report was a major embarrassment for the US and the War Mongering Neocons. Their response was to get rid of El-Baradi and put in their guy.
LOL! When you tell me I've gone astray, I know I'm on the right track.
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Actually, the US has some of the most strict laws in the world when it comes to people living abroad and taxes. This country doesn't let go of it's tax-cattle easily.
http://www.ehow.com/list_6851601_countries-file-taxes-living-abroad.html
The deeper we dig this hole, the harder it's going to be able to leave. We collectively need to get our heads screwed on straight when it comes to the guns and butter state because it's going to eat everything we have.
Big Don
Sr. Grandmaster
Then make sure to completely cash out before you leave! Take all your cash, sell everything you can't carry and BLOW. But, for the love of Mike, STFU and GO already.
:bangahead:
Don't worry, Don. It might not be much longer. I'm not sticking while the Vandals sack the place. Especially since our own people opened the god damned doors.
All I offer you is a different perspective. I find it abhorrent that you don't even care if you are the "bad guys". Most people want to actually be "good" in some respect even if this is and ill defined and vague concept. In any case, you have reminded me why I generally avoid talking to entrenched, vitriolic people about this kind of thing. You people go on about "hand-wringing" and descend into childish statements like "blah blah blah" when exposed to another viewpoint and at the end of the day there is little use talking about it.
What you say seems entirely stupid, not to mention insulting. Just because I encourage people to think differently about the situation with Iran (BNP and NF support Iran? Are we thinking of the same organisations?) that makes me a racist, right-wing crazy? Why is brainwashing necessary to try and talk about this?
Israel is a tiny country which punches massively against it's weight. They have the potential to bully, in the same way many other smaller countries can.
If you go back and read the comment you will see that I was referring to who started threatening who. I think it is an indictment of our education system that you jump to conclusion, feebly attempt to put words in people's mouths and are not even open minded enough to engage with a different perspective without starting to accuse others of biases that you pull out of nowhere.
Your biases are out there in writing for all to see I'm afraid as is your ignorance of who is atually doing what to whom. Your idea of Israel being the bully in the Middle East is as way out as someone suggesting the Isle of Wight is bullying America. really, you are offering another pesepctive? What of? the current Iranian thinking? Are you going to add Holocaust denial to that as well?
Interesting that you have backracked though from calling Israel a bully to now saying they have the potential to bully. I suggest you read up your history and see why the Middle East is the way it is, look up the Mufti of Jerusalem who was a staunch Nazi supporter, even went to live in Germany after the British kicked out, read also about his nephew Yasser Arafat and the PLO who still push the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as being true. Look at the Iranian insistance that the Holocaust never happened, look at teh declaration made by the Arabs after the Declaration of Independance that the Jews would be swept away into the sea and destroyed forever, then look to see how many times that is said now, I can assure it's many times. If you choose to be blind fine but don't assert that what you think is the actually the truth.
So, the massacres in Iraq and the daily massacres in Iran are stupid are they? The ethnic cleansing of the Kurds is also stupid? Well, that's your opinion and I'm sure you are entitled to it, and you called my comments feeble, son, you are aving a larf.
The situation in the Middle East goes back to the end of the First World War when the Allies chopped up the whole area into parcels, gave them new names and new rulers, making tribal chiefs into kings etc. It was done in the Allies interests of course, there's no doubt there however as Mark says what's done is done and now we have to all these years later reap what was sown then and try to sort out the mess. We could all wash our hands of the situation there but of course there's the oil.
I think it's unlikely to be honest that there will be a war with Iran, we may come to the brink of it every so often but I don't think we will actually get there. After years of having this sort of relationship with the USSR did we ever actually go to war with them despite all the posturing, the practicing, the readiness alerts and the spying. Countries cannot afford to go to war anymore, Iran no more than anywhere else.Iran has already had a hugely sapping war with Iraq, we are tied up in afghanistan, no one can afford to go to war. As for nuclear weapons, they are good bargaining point, again go back to the USSR model, we had them, they did, having a nuclear war would destroy all of us, so in real terms how mad do you think the Iranian leadership is? How mad would an American president have to be to unleash them? We are playing with fire on boths sides, it's a game of brinkmanship and risk but at some point there will be an accommodation made. It will be made because it has to be, all sides know that. Iran knows that while the other Muslim countries will support them publically they will not in private, many of them trade with Israel on the quiet and have come to private terms with it while posturing in public against it.
The economic situation in America, job losses, the banks etc are what will drive the next election plus the American political subjects such as abortion, crime, religion etc. all things a people in any country are rightly worried about. War with Iran won't be the first people think about when voting I'm sure. It's not a subject that comes up here very often though I'm sure it's exercising the Foreign Offices brains. We will continue to posture at each other, to make threats and be generally unfriendly but behind closed doors there will be people talking to each other insincerely of course but talking not declaring war. Israel isn't going to attack Iran, it may interfere with things a bit though but Iran does the same in Israel, it will stay at a 'manageable' level. Anyway, if we do have a nuclear war, that'll be the planet done with so probably not a lot of point in really worrying about it.
OP
OP
First, keep in mind that you're a vast believer in conspiracies. You see boogey-men behind every tree. Anything that happens, was actually caused by some other group, for nefarious purposes. I hate to say it, but you are a very paranoid person and many of your posts indicate you don't have a firm grip on reality. You're also a very nice person and I like you. But dude.
Second, Iran has stated that they will not stop enriching uranium. As recently as yesterday.
The claim it is for peaceful purposes. And that does not matter as far as the Israelis are concerned. They will attack if they feel they have no other options left.
It does not matter that Iran says 'peaceful' and most of the rest of the world says 'weapons'. Israel won't let Iran have nuclear capability.
OP
OP
No, you don't. When it is raining, you are argue that weather is unfair. Nothing to do with reality.
I don't want Iran to have nuclear weaponry, because they will use it on Israel as soon as they do. End of statement. Good, bad, blah blah blah. The moral distinctions are all important, but they stand in line behind what is.
I said 'blah blah blah' because your talking points are boring, inane, ridiculous and by the way, sound like a broken record. I said 'hand-wringing' because I get really tired of that 'blame America first' mentality which tends to go along with notions that if we let madmen have atomic weapons, they won't use them.
I'm not engaging in discussion because there is nothing to discuss. Iran will continue to enrich uranium. That's not a political statement, that is a fact. Israel will not permit this to occur past a certain point. That's another certainty.
You can 'think different' up one side and down the other. When it rains, we get wet. That's the reality. Israel a bully? Wah. Tell me what difference that makes. The USA evil? Tsk, tsk. Tell me how that knowledge changes anything.
Not liking the weather doesn't stop it. 'Think differently' about a mugger, see how it stops him from mugging you. Reality trumps happy thoughts.
It's by no means certain that Israel will attack Iran though, there's considerable debate in Israel about it.
http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/week...ael-attack-iran-s-nuclear-facilities-1.394964
OP
OP
Consider that Israel (we all agree that it was Israel, right?) just assassinated what, Iranian scientist number four in Tehran? Consider their track record in dealing with enemies that confront them. From the Six Day War to the recent bombings of Syrian nuclear facilities, when have you ever known Israel to not viciously and aggressively defend itself? Newspaper belly-button gazing aside, it is very clear what Israel will do if they feel threatened.
Put another way, Israel has bombed Iraqi and Syrian nuclear facilities. Why would they NOT bomb Iranian ones?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Opera
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Orchard
We could argue about whether or not Israel was 'right' to bomb those two nuclear facilities; but the fact is, they did it. And I have no reason to believe they won't do it again.
oftheherd1
Senior Master
Sorry Bill, I am a little confused. Do you mean you think those ship incidents were engineered by our government, or disagree with anyone twisting facts for their own purposes?
So may I conclude based on religious attendence that the UK is a muslim nation sir?
I would submit and agree sir, that the current Iran does not resemble Nazi Germany at its height. But Germany didn't start out that way either. It was a poor defeated nation in the throes of a world-wide depression, but taken over by politicians who led it down a path seeking world domination. Given time and more successes than it got, they could well have attacked North America.
By the way Makalakumu, I very much agree to you being entitled to your opinions. I generally read your posts, but seldom agree with your beliefs. I also note that you can seldom be construed as constantly or even usually impolite, although sometimes a little forceful in your defense of your beliefs. But I must say, I find it astounding some of the positions you espouse. The USA is certainly not perfect, and in my opinion, our politicians are about as self serving as any anywhere. I deplore that and have said so. But we are not quite as bad as to be the most evil country in the world. Whether or not you intend it so, you make it sound as if you beleive we are the worst thing going. Do you really think so sir?
I am reminded of the story of the couple prior to WWII, who correctly discerned that war was likely, and decided to leave the USA for a safe place. As I recall, they chose a backwater pacific paradise called Guam.
OP
OP
Sorry, let me explain.
I am aware that the USA has used, or is alleged to have used, pretexts for going to war. From the Maine to the Maddox, we've used attacks on US vessels, or the appearance of it, to justify war. And I am not in favor of such things, not by a long shot. Did we engineer the sinking of the Maine, or the Maddox? I don't know. What I do mean is that I'm aware of the allegations, and would not be surprised if we had. Nothing shocks me about the deceitfulness of our own government. That does not mean I 'support' such behavior. It means I accept that it happens.
Furthermore, I also do not want Iran to have nuclear capabilities. I had previously mentioned that I would not find it surprising if, since Iran is currently threatening to blockade the Straits of Hormuz, the US steams in, asserts their right to transit, and gets fired upon; thus created a palatable context for attack in the minds of many Americans. I wish we did not engage in such tactics; we don't need a pretext to remove Iran's nuclear capabilities, but I understand and fully suspect that something like this might happen.
It's a somewhat nuanced stance, and I'm sure you get it, but others seem to be struggling with it. In simple terms, I am not pleased with the thought that the US might engage in subterfuge, lies, and trickery to entice the Iranians into giving us a pretext to bomb their nuclear facilities, but at the same time, I do not want Iran to have said nuclear facilities and my objections to our machinations don't override the contempt I have for the methods we sometimes apparently use.
