On Iran

[billc]

If it turns out that Iran really is developing a nuclear bomb, they are going to need to talk to Iran and figure out a relationship for the region that will prevent this catastrophe.

Yes, just as Chamberlain was able to convince Hitler to stop what he was doing...

 

[Bill Mattocks]

It is the best thing we could do for them and probably the only way we'll stave off this conflict. The moment President Ron Paul announces that Israel is on it's own if it decides to attack Iran, they will be left in an unbelievable bind.

Again, I ask you to drink deeply of the water of reality.

 

[Tez3]

To my knowledge, Israel has never "threatened to wipe Iran off the map", but that is not what I said is it? If you want examples of Israeli threats to neighbours, I recommend searching "Israel threatens" into Google. Of course, at the moment that will only show you threats against Iran, but they threatened then bombed Syria, I think Iraq and perhaps somewhere else too, it's been a while since I studied it in detail. Here are a few to get you started:

http://www.christianpost.com/news/israel-threatens-an-attack-on-iran-60413/

http://news.sky.com/home/article/16101407

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3877404,00.html

Ah Razor, someone has you nicely brainwashed? BNP, NF perhaps? I could point out that Israel is a tiny country which the Arabs have said they will destroy and drive it's people into the sea. They continue to say that. When Israel was given it's independance by the United Nations, it offered peace to each of it;'s neighbours, did they take that offer? No, they said they would destroy the Jews and Israel. How many times have Arabs countries attacked Israel? How many times have they shouted 'death to the Jews'? Every day.
The big bullies eh? yeah Isreal would be a big bully, it has the odd idea that it's people should live in peace, strange that isn't it? those poor goliath countries, so misunderstood, so afraid of big bad Jews, how one's heart bleeds for them. Such a peaceful place Syria, they don't make war on other countries do they? Not at the moment, they are too busy machine gunning their own people down in the street. Men, women and children lying in their own blood killed by their own people. Iraq, now, that's a nice peaceful place, remember that nice man Saddam? he gassed whole towns. The tried to ethnically cleanse the Kurds, a very ancient people btw, the Israelis tried to help them from being slaughtered, well why not after all they knew what that was like after having 6 million of their own killed in just the way Saddam wanted to destroy the Kurds.

I think it must an indictment of our education system that you don't actually know the history of Israel and 'who started it'. That you can imagine Israel is this big bully that goes around attacking it's neighbours would be laughable if it weren't so sad and so, so wrong.

 

[Makalakumu]

Again, I ask you to drink deeply of the water of reality.

Millions of dead. Economic depression. Devalued currency. Children crushed under guns/butter debt. The end of Liberty in America. The well of reality is filled with ****.

Please consider the future you want to create for our country. You only know the propaganda that is force fed to us by admitted liars. War with Iran will turn out to be a worldwide catastrophe. It is far better to let Israel go then get dragged into this.

 

[Makalakumu]

Yes, just as Chamberlain was able to convince Hitler to stop what he was doing...

Iran is not Nazi Germany. They are not an industrial power and do not have the ability to threaten us like the Nazi's...assuming one imagines that the Nazis could have mountain an invasion of North America. This is just more propaganda.

 

[Tez3]

Millions of dead. Economic depression. Devalued currency. Children crushed under guns/butter debt. The well of reality is filled with ****.

Please consider the future you want to create for our country. You only know the propaganda that is force fed to us by admitted liars. War with Iran will turn out to be a worldwide catastrophe. It is far better to let Israel go then get dragged into this.

If you go to war, in fact if we go to war with Iran it will be nothing to do with Israel. If it were expedient to let Israel go, I'm sure it would be done but look at history and our economic need for oil etc and that is why Iran is a target. If it weren't the Shah wouldn't have been propped up with his ghastly regime for all those years. There's many reasons NATO could go to war against Iran, Israel won't be one of them.

 

[Makalakumu]

I think it must an indictment of our education system that you don't actually know the history of Israel and 'who started it'.

That story goes back thousands of years and is tit for tat the whole way. American and the UK got sucked into it through the expansion of their empires and would probably be best served to let all sides, over there, work out their problems themselves.

 

[Makalakumu]

If you go to war, in fact if we go to war with Iran it will be nothing to do with Israel. If it were expedient to let Israel go, I'm sure it would be done but look at history and our economic need for oil etc and that is why Iran is a target. If it weren't the Shah wouldn't have been propped up with his ghastly regime for all those years. There's many reasons NATO could go to war against Iran, Israel won't be one of them.

Various media sources in the US keeps saying that Israel will strike Iran and the counter attack will drag the US into the war. The truth is that the US has been messing with Iran since the 50s. The CIA deposed the democratically elected government. We put the shah in and supported him and we supported Saddam Hussein as he invaded Iran at our behest. Make no mistake, Israel is an excuse. They are probably being used as pawns. I suggest that we defuse this propaganda by pulling back our support. I suggest that we use this an example and pull back our empire so that we can live more peacefully.

The truth of what has been happening is dark and will eventually come out, but now, we need to pull back from the brink and realize what is at stake.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Millions of dead. Economic depression. Devalued currency. Children crushed under guns/butter debt. The end of Liberty in America. The well of reality is filled with ****.

Please consider the future you want to create for our country. You only know the propaganda that is force fed to us by admitted liars. War with Iran will turn out to be a worldwide catastrophe. It is far better to let Israel go then get dragged into this.

You're just not going to join us over here on the 'reality' side of the fence, are you? You just keep talking about what you'd like to happen. Evaluate what the chances are of that happening. What do you think they are? Why not deal with what is, instead of hammering over and over again on how awful we all are and how we need to just get along? Yes, we're awful. War sucks. Blah blah blah. Now think about it and tell me what is likeliest to happen.

 

[Big Don]

You do understand that the ONLY thing keeping Israel from preemptive action now, is the US, don't you?
Israel will act as it MUST, not as it wants to, Israel will act as it MUST to ensure the survival of its citizens.

 

[Big Don]

Some more Musical Inspiration to do the right thing in America. Master of War by Bob Dylan.

I see your dumb *** song, and raise you:

 

[Sukerkin]

You do understand that the ONLY thing keeping Israel from preemptive action now, is the US, don't you?
Israel will act as it MUST, not as it wants to, Israel will act as it MUST to ensure the survival of its citizens.

Which is precisely what happened during the Gulf Wars. The only thing that kept Israel from responding to the attacks on them was the Coalition's promise (primarily via America's anti-missile systems and Britain's special forces) to defend their population centres from the Scud's.

The balance of things may have shifted somewhat since the 60's and 70's and political memories are short but those rattling sabres against Israel would do well to remember how they reacted when attacked back then, including what they did to Egypt's nuclear programme.

It is deeply sorrowful to think that we are yet again on the brink of another war, this one with the potential to spread into something far more horrifying than we have witnessed in this century.

Those that have noted the role of Britain and later America in forging the present state of affairs regarding Iran are quite right; the acts of self-interest from our governments did indeed have a large role to play in bringing us to this point.

I have to agree with the pragmatic words in some of the posts earlier, however. In a very real sense, the road we took to get here no longer matters. That 'cloth' is woven and cannot be unpicked, no matter how we might wish otherwise (and I do so wish as another war with 'religion', false as it may be, raising the flags is worrisome in the extreme).

 

[Makalakumu]

That 'cloth' is woven and cannot be unpicked

Bravo when it comes to metaphors. I disagree. We tell Israel that if they are going to strike, it's your responsibility. Then we pack our bags, pull out of places that piss off our global neighbors. Then, we stop selling weapons and installing petty dictators in the region. Yeah, it will be a mess, but it will be less of a mess then if we blow this up into a global conflagration.

I'm surprised how few people can see this. They seem to think that more war is the answer to the problems that war caused. You can't solve this problem with the same kind of thinking that started it. Talk about fighting for peace and ****ing for virginity.

Lastly, no one seems willing to tackle the question of whether or not they really know what they know about Iran. How do you dissemble war propaganda from reality? Why would you trust people who have lied society into war before to steer you straight now?

I refuse to believe that trust anyone who did this in your personal relationships. Why do you give a pass to the corrupt, lying, and murdering government?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I'm surprised how few people can see this. They seem to think that more war is the answer to the problems that war caused.

I can't believe that you think anything different is going to happen. You've got this one track mind about what we should be doing. But it doesn't matter if you're right or wrong, we're NOT going to do that. Israel will attack Iran as soon as they do not think they can stop Iran's acquisition of nuclear capability any other way. None of this psychobabble will change anything.

You rail against the evil of our own governments. Yay you. I even agree. So what? It means nothing. You seem utterly unable to grasp that.

That's the frustrating part in this thread. You're arguing ideology; most of the rest of us are simply stating what is most likely to happen, not why it's a good or bad thing. You seem to have the opinion that being 'against it' is going to change anything. It's not.

 

[ballen0351]

Bravo when it comes to metaphors. I disagree. We tell Israel that if they are going to strike, it's your responsibility. Then we pack our bags, pull out of places that piss off our global neighbors.

We shouldnt EVER turn our backs on our friends. I dont understand why people think its ok to turn our backs on Israel but would never think of doing that to other places like the UK. I hope its not because Israel is a Jewish state but sadly I cant think of any other reasons. I believe we stand by our friends.

Then, we stop selling weapons and installing petty dictators in the region. Yeah, it will be a mess, but it will be less of a mess then if we blow this up into a global conflagration.

I agree with that.

I'm surprised how few people can see this. They seem to think that more war is the answer to the problems that war caused. You can't solve this problem with the same kind of thinking that started it. Talk about fighting for peace and ****ing for virginity.

In a perfect world you would be right. However there are people in this world that only know violence and will only respond to violence, and when these people are running countries there is really only way to deal with them.

Lastly, no one seems willing to tackle the question of whether or not they really know what they know about Iran. How do you dissemble war propaganda from reality? Why would you trust people who have lied society into war before to steer you straight now?

All you need to do in Iran's case is listen to what come out of its own leaders mouths. They have made threats to wipe Israel off the map. If they are bluffing then too bad for them dont write checks with your mouth you butt cant cash.

I refuse to believe that trust anyone who did this in your personal relationships. Why do you give a pass to the corrupt, lying, and murdering government?

With out proof you would have a point but there is enough evidence of Iranian weapons used against US soilders in Iraq, threats from Iran's leaders, and 1000's of years of history to back it up.

 

[Makalakumu]

I can't believe that you think anything different is going to happen. You've got this one track mind about what we should be doing. But it doesn't matter if you're right or wrong, we're NOT going to do that. Israel will attack Iran as soon as they do not think they can stop Iran's acquisition of nuclear capability any other way. None of this psychobabble will change anything.

You rail against the evil of our own governments. Yay you. I even agree. So what? It means nothing. You seem utterly unable to grasp that.

That's the frustrating part in this thread. You're arguing ideology; most of the rest of us are simply stating what is most likely to happen, not why it's a good or bad thing. You seem to have the opinion that being 'against it' is going to change anything. It's not.

In a lot of cases, I completely agree. Trying to appeal to the government to change something bad that it's doing is beyond a waste of time. Most of the time politics is merely trying to not vomit when near various candidates opinions. This year, for this issue, I think we can make a difference. I've been putting my support toward Ron Paul's candidacy for president because I feel like he is the candidate that will kill the least amount of people. I think his candidacy could build a movement that could possibly steer our country from it's current road to self-destruction. I could also be wrong.

And in that case, I know what I'm going to do. I'm not going to hang around while the Vandals sack the place. It's taken many years for me to get my family in the position where we could leave at any time that we wished. I've known this was coming for a long time. And war with Iran has always been the proverbial and real line in the sand for me.

That said, if Israel attacks Iran, that's one thing. If the US joins in, that's a whole new level. The former isn't going to lead to all of the things I wrote about earlier in this thread. The latter will probably be the last thing our current form of government does. We don't need to support Israel. Nor do we need to use them as a proxy to start a new war. Tomorrow, if the President said that Israel was on it's own if it attacked Iran, I think the politics of this would change over night. They would have to talk to Iran. They would have to sort through the propaganda and real intelligence and actually find out what Iran was doing with it's nuclear program. And IF it turned out that Iran really was making a nuke, they would have to find a way to live next to a powerful neighbor.

And it might be true that Iran really isn't pursuing a nuclear weapon, as they have said time and time again going so far to issue a fatwa against it.

 

[Big Don]

I'm surprised how few people can see this. They seem to think that more war is the answer to the problems that war caused. You can't solve this problem with the same kind of thinking that started it.

When violence IS necessary it is the ONLY thing that will work.

What we've got here is... failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach.

Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that’s it.
In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.
When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force. The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gangbanger, and a single gay guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.

Or a teeny tiny little Democracy like Israel and a big Evil theocracy like Iran...

I refuse to believe that trust anyone who did this in your personal relationships. Why do you give a pass to the corrupt, lying, and murdering government?

You don't trust our government, but, you do trust these a holes?

And then there is this...

http://www.mathaba.net/news/?x=302258

"The Leader of the Islamic Republic of Iran, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei has issued the Fatwa that the production, stockpiling and use of nuclear weapons are forbidden under Islam and that the Islamic Republic of Iran shall never acquire these weapons. President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who took office just recently, in his inaugural address reiterated that his government is against weapons of mass destruction and will only pursue nuclear activities in the peaceful domain. The leadership of Iran has pledged at the highest level that Iran will remain a non-nuclear-weapon state party to the NPT and has placed the entire scope of its nuclear activities under IAEA safeguards and additional protocol, in addition to undertaking voluntary transparency measures with the agency that have even gone beyond the requirements of the agency's safeguard system.

"



The highest spiritual leader in Iran issued a fatwa against the production, stockpiling and use of nuclear weapons. According to spiritual and political leaders at the heart of Muslim world, nuclear weapons are prohibited by Allah.

That says a couple of things about you, and none of them are good...

 

[Bill Mattocks]

In a lot of cases, I completely agree. Trying to appeal to the government to change something bad that it's doing is beyond a waste of time. Most of the time politics is merely trying to not vomit when near various candidates opinions. This year, for this issue, I think we can make a difference. I've been putting my support toward Ron Paul's candidacy for president because I feel like he is the candidate that will kill the least amount of people. I think his candidacy could build a movement that could possibly steer our country from it's current road to self-destruction. I could also be wrong.

And in that case, I know what I'm going to do. I'm not going to hang around while the Vandals sack the place. It's taken many years for me to get my family in the position where we could leave at any time that we wished. I've known this was coming for a long time. And war with Iran has always been the proverbial and real line in the sand for me.

That said, if Israel attacks Iran, that's one thing. If the US joins in, that's a whole new level. The former isn't going to lead to all of the things I wrote about earlier in this thread. The latter will probably be the last thing our current form of government does. We don't need to support Israel. Nor do we need to use them as a proxy to start a new war. Tomorrow, if the President said that Israel was on it's own if it attacked Iran, I think the politics of this would change over night. They would have to talk to Iran. They would have to sort through the propaganda and real intelligence and actually find out what Iran was doing with it's nuclear program. And IF it turned out that Iran really was making a nuke, they would have to find a way to live next to a powerful neighbor.

And it might be true that Iran really isn't pursuing a nuclear weapon, as they have said time and time again going so far to issue a fatwa against it.

One. Track. Mind. It's boring, buddy. It's banal. Paul is not going to be elected, first. That won't happen, and I may vote for him myself. As to threats to leave the country, don't let the door hit you in the *** on the way out. Hollywood actors like to make those threats when their candidate loses too. Haven't seen a single one of them make good on their promises.

But as I said; and you keep simply ignoring; what is going to happen is that Iran is going to keep trying to gain nuclear capability. And Israel will stop them. If they can't do it with diplomacy, assassinations, UN sanctions, and so on, they will attack. Nothing you or I say here has anything to do with that, and we cannot stop it. Seriously, if I told you it was raining out, instead of just sticking your hand out the window to feel the raindrops, you'd be arguing that bad weather is unfair to the poor. Like the weather cares.

If you're going to leave the US over this, hasta la bye-bye.

 

[Big Don]

As to threats to leave the country, don't let the door hit you in the *** on the way out. Hollywood actors like to make those threats when their candidate loses too. Haven't seen a single one of them make good on their promises.

You ever notice it is never the conservative republicans that threaten to bail?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

You ever notice it is never the conservative republicans that threaten to bail?

Er, I've seen a few. Not to rain your parade or anything. But yeah, mostly liberals.

I've also read dozens of assertions that this or that crisis is about to be the last mistake the US makes. Somehow we're still here.

I'm not happy with our direction either. I'm not happy with the interventions we've made in the Middle East and I think we bear some responsibility for the situation today (so do many nations). But I'm not fooled into thinking it's OK for Iran to have nukes because we have been meddling and naughty to them. I don't care how bad we've been, it's not OK for Iran to have nukes.

And frankly, the 'blame America first' drone gets old and depressing. If you (they) hate it so much, and you think we're on the brink of destruction, and you'd rather live in a more civilized nation, there's the door. Go on, git. Unlike many other of the nations you love to suck up to and cry over, our citizens are free to leave whenever they wish. We've never built fences to keep ours in.