Old Martial Arts techniques.

[Hanzou]

No I don't train with him. No it's not theoretical. We don't do the same training. He as a college scholarship for wrestling so I can't do anything that may mess that up for him. When I gave him a try I told him I wouldn't strike him back and all he had to do was take me down. I told him I had a theory about the low stance and for him to give a good effort. And he did within the limitations of the environment. We weren't on a mat so there were a lot of wrestling entries that would have damaged his knees if he he tried and got it wrong. He tried a couple of times anyway. He went for my front let and I defended my front leg. When he thought I would be static, I moved and there was nothing for him to grab. He tried grabbing my hand and I was able to do some simple Chin Na escapes that prevented him to grabbing my arm. From what I could tell from my end. My low stance made his stance inefficient for what how he usually wrestles. For example, he would never see someone stand like that in his wrestling competitions. He's stronger than me. I'm heavier than he is. back thin I think it was by 25 pounds, but he could easily deal with 195 pounds. He's strong enough for that. He has pushed defensive linemen heavier than me.

I don't like to debate "what I would do" in theory. I rather focus on things that I actually could do. For example, me being able to stomp on someone's hand from that stance is not difficult. Because the stance is low, the stomp comes down a lot harder and faster than it would if I was in a higher stance. Give it a try and you will get the same result So when I talk martial arts I don't want to talk about theories as much as I do about "What are my realistic options."


If I knew some Greco Roman wrestlers, I would. Because I want to know where the limitations are and when the technique fails. Knowing that a technique is successful is not the most important thing. Knowing when it will fail is the most important thing. Knowing when it will fail will keep you from doing the stupid things.

Things about the low stance.
Change the angle that someone must take to grab your leg. This will make it difficult especially if you have hands that will interfere. Someone comes in to grab the leg then move. Like Kung Fu Wang stated the distance of your stance is important. If someone can get your rear leg then it's the same as grabbing the front leg.

View attachment 23811

In the picture the guy on the left has the Worst Stance. Someone who is good at taking your legs without shooting on them will make you pay dearly for standing like this. If he moves his right leg then his left leg is still in danger. If he moves his left leg then his right leg is still in danger. From this position he has no rear leg. He can try to sprawl, but he won't sprawl if you sweep..

The BJJ guy on the left does a BJJ version of my low stance. If there was striking involved then his face would be in danger. But we'll only look at the grappling aspect. To see the similarities

1. both stances reduce the amount of space that someone has to get under you. My stance does this. If my stance is no good then that BJJ stance above is equally trash.
2. Hands are position so that you can protect your front leg (knee down). Because my stance is this low I can use my hand to defend my front leg.
3. Rear leg is far back in the safety zone. If he steps back with his front leg, then his rear leg will still be safe, unlike the guy on the left. My stance does this too. Even though he is close to my front leg he is still far away from my rear leg. Even if he wants to shoot for that rear leg, it will be near impossible because the low stance means that the shoot will start lower than normal and as a result will hit the ground before he reaches the back leg.
4. If a person tries to over run the low stance then you automatically are under the person. You have probably remember seeing this when I picked someone up

Advantage for me that the picture BJJ practitioner doesn't have is that the physics of the body means I can shuffle back to escape a front leg grab attempt
Disadvantage for BJJ stance. He cannot do the same but he can step back or sprawl. I can also step back, but I cannot sprawl from this position.
Advantage for BJJ stance. He can make that area under his body while maintaining a comfortable stance.
Disadvantage for me. I cannot not make that area smaller without making my stance lower. If my stance becomes too low then it will not be functional. It also takes me more energy to maintain this stance which is why it is said "Your horse stance should be strong." Don't believe me. Get into this stance and you'll find out just how strong your legs aren't and you'll have a good idea of how strong the must be.
Advantage for me, I'm in a position that is safer to receive and give strikes. Or doing things like lifting my foot to stomp on someone's hands.
Disadvantage for BJJ . His structure will not allow him life his front leg to stomp in a stable manner. If I can kick his legs or hands, then I can kick is face. That's a front kick party all day long.

1-4 is what makes the BJJ stance work. My stance has 1- 4 which is why it works. It is a Kung Fu solution not a BJJ solution. If my stance is no good then the BJJ stance is equally trash.

These stances are equally trash as well Even thought they meet the 4 key points.. Like I said before you guys make this stuff way to complicated

You should have your training partners test your stance against an arm drag to a back take, and see how that goes.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The point is an aspiring MMA fighter isn’t going to take up something like Jow Ga until it proves to be beneficial to what they do in the ring.

And I'm telling you if I was an inspiring MMA fighter then I would use Jow Ga because it has proven to me that it's beneficial to me.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You should have your training partners test your stance against an arm drag to a back take, and see how that goes.

What makes you think I'm going to let them grab my arm without me trying to prevent them from grabbing my arm?

 

[JowGaWolf]

I never said they couldn’t. The problem is that their sparring is simply not structured like in Judo and Bjj, and that leads to the results you’re seeing in those videos; broken grappling entries with little fluidity and loads of missed opportunities, like back takes...

Are you talking about this video?

 

[Hanzou]

And I'm telling you if I was an inspiring MMA fighter then I would use Jow Ga because it has proven to me that it's beneficial to me.

Which is a biased viewpoint because you’ve been doing it for years and have no desire to do MMA. We’re not talking about you, we’re talking about someone who seriously wants to perform well in MMA. Jow Ga would not give them the tools to do that.

What makes you think I'm going to let them grab my arm without me trying to prevent them from grabbing my arm?

I never said you wouldn’t try to prevent it. I’m saying that stance is low and immobile, making it rather easy to take your back. There’s quite a few ways to get there, and an arm drag is just one of them.

Are you talking about this video?

And the first one.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Which is a biased viewpoint because you’ve been doing it for years and have no desire to do MMA

It's not a bias point of view. I've been doing it for years, it has many of the same techniques that you see in MMA, Long fist punches, jabs, hooks, upper cuts, sweeps, side kick, back kick., round house kick, low leg kicks, elbows. Jow Ga is already a hybrid martial arts that combined three other martial arts, it has good footwork, it blocks low kicks using it legs, it uses stance level changes, it has the oblique kick, parries, jams, wrist escapes, front kicks, some grappling, knees, throws, it uses strategies such as baits, lures, misdirection, distraction, front kicks, palm strikes and some other stuff that people aren't used to dealing with.

If anything I would train those same things at a higher level by using them against higher level skills. So If I'm at a skill level 4 then I would increase and fight someone at a skill level 5 or 6, then increase one or two more levels once I master levels 5 and 6. Keep that up until I reach the level that would qualify as professional level. I would do a lot of conditioning so my body can withstand harder strikes. I would do a lot of foot work so that my footwork will be faster and stronger. I would up my cardio and muscle endurance 10 fold. I would fight against a lot of systems so I could know how my Jow Ga would apply techniques to the strategies and techniques of the system.

And what is it that you want me to do? Dump all of that? that makes no sense to drop functional stuff that I already know.

I never said you wouldn’t try to prevent it. I’m saying that stance is low and immobile,

Low stance isn't as static as you think. There's mobility in it, it's "Short mobility" not "Long mobility"
Short mobility = move things out of the way and reposition quickly. I'm not trying to get away.
Long mobility = move things out of the way and reposition quickly. I'm trying to get away.

Example of short mobility = I'm not trying to get away.

Why would someone throw an upper cut that low? Just a guess, someone may give you a pretty face to punch.

 

[Hanzou]

Are you talking about this video?

It's not a bias point of view. I've been doing it for years, it has many of the same techniques that you see in MMA, Long fist punches, jabs, hooks, upper cuts, sweeps, side kick, back kick., round house kick, low leg kicks, elbows. Jow Ga is already a hybrid martial arts that combined three other martial arts, it has good footwork, it blocks low kicks using it legs, it uses stance level changes, it has the oblique kick, parries, jams, wrist escapes, front kicks, some grappling, knees, throws, it uses strategies such as baits, lures, misdirection, distraction, front kicks, palm strikes and some other stuff that people aren't used to dealing with.

And yet it's not a basis for MMA striking on any conceivable level despite it's relative commonality. So either MMA fighters are completely ignorant to its effectiveness, or it simply isn't as effective as you believe it is. Again, we're talking about highly competitive martial artists who are betting their livelihoods on their training and coaching. If Jow Ga offered anything above other striking arts, it would be a mainstay in MMA gyms and training regimens. That simply isn't the case.

If anything I would train those same things at a higher level by using them against higher level skills. So If I'm at a skill level 4 then I would increase and fight someone at a skill level 5 or 6, then increase one or two more levels once I master levels 5 and 6. Keep that up until I reach the level that would qualify as professional level. I would do a lot of conditioning so my body can withstand harder strikes. I would do a lot of foot work so that my footwork will be faster and stronger. I would up my cardio and muscle endurance 10 fold. I would fight against a lot of systems so I could know how my Jow Ga would apply techniques to the strategies and techniques of the system.

And what is it that you want me to do? Dump all of that? that makes no sense to drop functional stuff that I already know.

This is assuming that your Jow Ga training prepares you for MMA at the same level as Muay Thai or Boxing would. I don't believe that's the case.

Low stance isn't as static as you think. There's mobility in it, it's "Short mobility" not "Long mobility"
Short mobility = move things out of the way and reposition quickly. I'm not trying to get away.
Long mobility = move things out of the way and reposition quickly. I'm trying to get away.

That stance doesn't give you enough mobility to avoid a back take, or most high takedowns from the clinch. We should also take a moment to marvel at the fact that you believe that you can stuff the majority of takedowns with simply a wide stance.

Example of short mobility = I'm not trying to get away

.

Well those are different stances than the one you were demonstrating. That said, the rules still apply;

Horse stance; Your weak areas are front and back.
Front stance: Your weak areas are side to side.

In either case, the point is that those wide stances hinder your mobility, and open you up for getting nailed from different angles, and if you think a good grappler can't hit those angles, you're delusional.

Like Steve says, you need to train with a better grappler.

Why would someone throw an upper cut that low? Just a guess, someone may give you a pretty face to punch.

That's a grappling tournament where strikes aren't allowed.

 

[dvcochran]

Don't think about it as being better or worse. Some of these techniques are the same techniques that are used by some of today's tops sports competitors. Are there mistakes in some of these? of course. like the one drop bear says he doesn't like. But it isn't a big deal, slip to the outside instead of the inside and you'll have a working technique.

Agree. It is not fair to lob shots at the techniques being used or technique execution. Let's not forget these are the guys who really had bullets and bomb being fired at them and knew that was their station.
Pucker factor at a 10+. This completely changes the dynamic and mentality.

It is something I see too many people talk about in their MA training. "I just want to workout for the exercise". On it's own this is a bad thing from all viewpoints.

 

[JowGaWolf]

And yet it's not a basis for MMA striking on any conceivable level despite it's relative commonality. So either MMA fighters are completely ignorant to its effectiveness, or it simply isn't as effective as you believe it is.

It's not the basis of BJJ. If you want to do BJJ then you take the BJJ Stance as it is more favorable to BJJ techniques. If do kung fu then you want to take low stance as it's more suitable for kung. How stand has a direct effect on what techniques will be available for you. It is that simple. Every system has a low stance to deal with grappling. The stance is shaped accordingly to the type of techniques that will follow.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That stance doesn't give you enough mobility to avoid a back take, or most high takedowns from the clinch. We should also take a moment to marvel at the fact that you believe that you can stuff the majority of takedowns with simply a wide stance.

If your opponent wants to attack high then you raise your stance. If your opponent wants to attack low then you lower it.

 

[Hanzou]

If your opponent wants to attack high then you raise your stance. If your opponent wants to attack low then you lower it.

Yeah that's the thing, raising your stance won't necessarily stop a high takedown. Also a low stance won't necessarily stop a low takedown. There's too many factors at work to simplify it on that level.

I mean in all seriousness, do you ever wonder why MMA guys bother learning ground fighting if all they needed to do to stop a takedown is simply widening their stance or narrowing their stance?

 

[Hanzou]

It's not the basis of BJJ. If you want to do BJJ then you take the BJJ Stance as it is more favorable to BJJ techniques. If do kung fu then you want to take low stance as it's more suitable for kung. How stand has a direct effect on what techniques will be available for you. It is that simple. Every system has a low stance to deal with grappling. The stance is shaped accordingly to the type of techniques that will follow.

That isn't necessarily true. Bjj is intrinsically tied to MMA largely due to the fact that BJJ created modern MMA. Thus we have a symbiotic relationship where MMA will never allow BJJ to get too wrapped up in its own nonsense, and BJJ will never allow MMA to escape the importance of ground fighting.

Ironically, sport BJJ is kept in check by MMA, and MMA is kept in check by sport BJJ. It's really a wild and interesting relationship.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yeah that's the thing, raising your stance won't necessarily stop a high takedown

The point of raising your stance is because you no longer need it if someone is doing a high take down. Like I SAID BEFORE. THE LOW STANCE THAT I USE IS TO MAKE IT DIFFICULT OR TO PREVENT SOMEONE FROM GETTING UNDER YOU. If you are trying to do a high take down, then why do I need to be that low? If I'm still under you when I rise my stance then I'm in a good position to take your root from the bottom. If I take your root from the boom then your high takedown will not work. If I raise my stance, I will gain better "Long mobility" as well as "Short mobility" is no longer needed at that point.

Not sure why you are making it so difficult.

I mean in all seriousness, do you ever wonder why MMA guys bother learning ground fighting if all they needed to do to stop a takedown is simply widening their stance or narrowing their stance?

It's not about widening your stance, it's about lowering the stance. The widening of the stance addresses a different issue. A wider stance is about protecting at least one leg. I don't know how many times @Kung Fu Wang has said this over the years.

If told you that I was going to cut your legs off and you had a choice of losing one leg or two legs, then what would you choose? Both legs?

If someone has both of your legs then you have no mobility. If you give only one leg the you can use the other leg to stand on and maybe quickly pull the lead leg out of trouble.

The fact that I have to sit here and explain this is nuts. Instead of just trying to discount what I do. Give things some thought.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That isn't necessarily true.

It is true. Try to do BJJ from a Low Kung Fu stance and you'll see the difference right away.

Bjj is intrinsically tied to MMA largely due to the fact that BJJ created modern MMA.

This shows your lack of understanding of martial arts and how things function with in a system.
Stances are directly tied to the techniques that are used in the system.

Try to swing a sword, a staff, a heavy weapon from these stances. It will not work, it will have almost zero effciency
Try to punch from from these stances. You will find it difficult. Try to do an upper cut or jab from these stances. You will easy feel that these stancess are not the best position to do these things. Try to do boxing from from these stances and you will discover the same thing. What you will find out is that these stances work good for one type of thing while other stances work good for things. This has nothing to do with MMA. This is the basic reality of the stance and how it functions.

 

[Hanzou]

The point of raising your stance is because you no longer need it if someone is doing a high take down. Like I SAID BEFORE. THE LOW STANCE THAT I USE IS TO MAKE IT DIFFICULT OR TO PREVENT SOMEONE FROM GETTING UNDER YOU. If you are trying to do a high take down, then why do I need to be that low? If I'm still under you when I rise my stance then I'm in a good position to take your root from the bottom. If I take your root from the boom then your high takedown will not work. If I raise my stance, I will gain better "Long mobility" as well as "Short mobility" is no longer needed at that point.

Not sure why you are making it so difficult.

I'm not making it difficult at all, I'm just marveling at the fact that we're having the 1994 argument of Kung Fu guys believing that they "can't be taken down because they do horse stances" again.

It's not about widening your stance, it's about lowering the stance. The widening of the stance addresses a different issue. A wider stance is about protecting at least one leg. I don't know how many times @Kung Fu Wang has said this over the years.

If told you that I was going to cut your legs off and you had a choice of losing one leg or two legs, then what would you choose? Both legs?

If someone has both of your legs then you have no mobility. If you give only one leg the you can use the other leg to stand on and maybe quickly pull the lead leg out of trouble.

The fact that I have to sit here and explain this is nuts. Instead of just trying to discount what I do. Give things some thought.

I'm not discounting what you do, I'm discounting your claims, because they're patently insane. Like @Steve said, if your claims were true, then you're sitting on a gold mine and you need to hop off the internet and start coaching some MMA guys.

Also that video doesn't back up what you're claiming. Those guys are elite wrestlers/ grapplers, not Kung Fu stylists, and yeah they have amazing takedown defenses. However, it's important to note that they still get taken down a lot. This video simply highlighted the points where their takedown defense was successful.

 

[Hanzou]

It is true. Try to do BJJ from a Low Kung Fu stance and you'll see the difference right away.

This shows your lack of understanding of martial arts and how things function with in a system.
Stances are directly tied to the techniques that are used in the system.

Try to swing a sword, a staff, a heavy weapon from these stances. It will not work, it will have almost zero effciency
Try to punch from from these stances. You will find it difficult. Try to do an upper cut or jab from these stances. You will easy feel that these stancess are not the best position to do these things. Try to do boxing from from these stances and you will discover the same thing. What you will find out is that these stances work good for one type of thing while other stances work good for things. This has nothing to do with MMA. This is the basic reality of the stance and how it functions.

Uh, what are you even talking about here? My argument was that Kung Fu simply doesn't have the basis in MMA that would attract an aspiring fighting to take up its practice. You countered that by saying that BJJ was somehow in a similar boat as Kung fu in that regard, I pointed out how that is false due to how BJJ and MMA interact with each other on multiple levels, and now you're talking about how stances effect the martial arts?

Again, what are you talking about?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Thus we have a symbiotic relationship where MMA will never allow BJJ to get too wrapped up in its own nonsense, and BJJ will never allow MMA to escape the importance of ground fighting.

And you say I'm the one that's biased lol.

Ironically, sport BJJ is kept in check by MMA, and MMA is kept in check by sport BJJ.

And I'm the one who doesn't train with BJJ folks? A couple of BJJ guys that I know who do sports BJJ told me this. "We do BJJ, but we don't deal with punches when we compete."

This is the same thing that every other martial arts system goes through. Same thing I've been I've been saying for the longest. "Not everyone takes a martial arts to learn to fight."

Below is the same path that all martial arts take. BJJ is no exception. When people stop training to fight, then it becomes something else. If they didn't say the words BJJ, you would think they were talking about kung fu or something.

In short. Your idea of Sports BJJ keeps MMA in check is totally wrong. Below is sports BJJ. Notice the score card. Notice there is no striking like there is in MMA.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'm not making it difficult at all, I'm just marveling at the fact that we're having the 1994 argument of Kung Fu guys believing that they "can't be taken down because they do horse stances" again.

Where in my quote below did I say "can't be taken down because they do horse stances."

Now is there other stuff that can be done to take me down? Of course, it's not a defense perfect stance.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Uh, what are you even talking about here? My argument was that Kung Fu simply doesn't have the basis in MMA that would attract an aspiring fighting to take up its practice. You countered that by saying that BJJ was somehow in a similar boat as Kung fu in that regard, I pointed out how that is false due to how BJJ and MMA interact with each other on multiple levels, and now you're talking about how stances effect the martial arts?

Again, what are you talking about?

I'm telling you your stances dictate what techniques you can do. But you dont' seem to understand that.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Uh, what are you even talking about here? My argument was that Kung Fu simply doesn't have the basis in MMA that would attract an aspiring fighting to take up its practice. You countered that by saying that BJJ was somehow in a similar boat as Kung fu in that regard, I pointed out how that is false due to how BJJ and MMA interact with each other on multiple levels, and now you're talking about how stances effect the martial arts?

I showed you a low BJJ stance and a Low Kung Fu stance and pointed out the similarities of how it protects the user. You are the only one on this thread having a MMA temper tantrum. We get it, You can't talk about martial arts unless you use the term MMA.

And for the record. I haven't heard anyone state that my analysis of the 4 areas of the BJJ stance and the Analysis of the Kung Fu Stance on the same areas were incorrect. That includes you.

Instead you go straight to MMA and what MMA is and how BJJ does this and that. And none of that talk has anything to do with why that low kung fu stance works.

I even gave you a detailed analysis including advantages and disadvantages of both based on their limitations, and how one allows you to follow up with BJJ techniques and the other allow you to follow up with kung fu techniques.