Old Martial Arts techniques.

[JowGaWolf]

Yeah, you’re missing the point. The point is that despite all of those years of Kung Fu training, when it comes to actual fighting, they’re resorting to sloppy boxing. So again, if I’m looking to learn how to fight, why would I spend decades learning Hung Ga when I can get the same results much faster in western boxing?

You are confusing 2 different things. What you are talking about right here are people who don't train to fight TMA. When you train to fight TMA only TMA comes out. You don't do sloppy boxing because you don't train boxing. You train TMA. People who abandon their techniques when engage in full contact abandon there TMA techniques because they don't train to fight with TMA techniques.

They may drill the techniques but they don't actually know how to apply them in free sparring. This is totally different than someone who is actually using the techniques in free sparring. This is why you are able to see the Jow Ga techniques in my sparring videos. Some people will say that they train TMA to fight but in reality they don't get past the drilling part.

It only took me a year to learn how to apply most of the Jow Ga techniques that I show in my videos.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Does that make TMAs worthless and useless? Of course not. However, it’s nonsense to believe that TMAs are on par with modern systems because they have older and less tested theories on fighting

A lot of the techniques you hold in high regards in MMA are TMA techniques. They were around before MMA

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yeah, you’re not a professional fighter, and neither am I. However if we were, I seriously doubt either of us would consider Jow Ga as something to invest our training time into

If I was going to be a professional fighter, here's what I would train.

Jow Ga Kung Fu and some BJJ, mainly escaping from it or countering it. I would spend 8 hours day training, 5 hours for Jow Ga 2 hours for Bjj and 3 hours dedicated to strength training, cardio, and muscle endurance. You wouldn't choose Jow Ga because you know nothing about it. You don't train it. Just like I wouldn't train Wing Chun. I know nothing about fighting with Wing Chun. But yeah. If I were to be a professional fighter I would choose Jow Ga easily.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The vast majority of people in BJJ have zero interest in MMA fighting,

And the vast majority of these people who have zero interest do not have the skills nor the dedicated training hours to be effective in MMA. Some of these people who have BJJ skills would still lose in a street fight.

Professional fighters choose the skill sets that they feel will serve them best. Some may take BJJ not to win by using it but to have a better understanding what the other person is trying to do to them and how to escape it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Also as a southpaw, I slip jabs to the inside quite often. Like most defenses, you just can't be lazy about it.

I think jabs are a lower risk. Jow Ga has a technique where we punch on the inside but they ware with punches directed to the face and not the body. If you are slipping jabs to the body then I would be curious to know if your left hand is guarding your head as a way to avoid being hit with your opponents rear punch.

 

[Hanzou]

Boxing is a pure striking art. Most CMA are the integration of both striking art and wrestling art. A CMA guy will know how to use a hook punch to set up an under hook, or use a uppercut to set up an over hook. The boxer doesn't.

Simply because CMAs include "grappling" techniques doesn't give them an inherent advantage.

 

[drop bear]

A lot of the techniques you hold in high regards in MMA are TMA techniques. They were around before MMA

If we are going that argument. Boxing and wrestling were the two oldest martial arts there is. And were sport.

TMA is the fad.

 

[Hanzou]

And the vast majority of these people who have zero interest do not have the skills nor the dedicated training hours to be effective in MMA. Some of these people who have BJJ skills would still lose in a street fight.

Yeah, no one is saying otherwise.

Professional fighters choose the skill sets that they feel will serve them best. Some may take BJJ not to win by using it but to have a better understanding what the other person is trying to do to them and how to escape it.

They take Bjj because over the last 30 years of MMA, knowledge of the Bjj skill set has provided the desired results that justifies its practice. If Bjj exponents just gave out lip service and people who undertook that practice were not getting the desired results, professional fighters and MMA gyms would not seek Bjj instructors and coaches. That's what you're doing with traditional arts; giving out lip service about the efficacy of traditional MAs.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Simply because CMAs include "grappling" techniques doesn't give them an inherent advantage.

The information is there. It's up to the individual to use it.

No matter how long that may stay in the elementary school, you will never be able to learn the quantum physics.

To a boxer, a hook is just a punch. To a CMA guy, a hook can be a punch, a wrist grab, or a downward parry.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If we are going that argument. Boxing and wrestling were the two oldest martial arts there is. And were sport.

TMA is the fad.

Lei Tai is sport too and uses similar techniques, Same as Sanda. TMA = Traditional Martial Arts. Boxing and Wrestling would qualify as a Traditional Martial Art.

 

[Hanzou]

If I was going to be a professional fighter, here's what I would train.

Jow Ga Kung Fu and some BJJ, mainly escaping from it or countering it. I would spend 8 hours day training, 5 hours for Jow Ga 2 hours for Bjj and 3 hours dedicated to strength training, cardio, and muscle endurance. You wouldn't choose Jow Ga because you know nothing about it. You don't train it. Just like I wouldn't train Wing Chun. I know nothing about fighting with Wing Chun. But yeah. If I were to be a professional fighter I would choose Jow Ga easily.

I wouldn't train in Jow Ga because I have yet to see an MMA fighter effectively use it. I would instead invest in the MAs that have yielded the best results for the majority of MMA fighters, and that tends to be Muay Thai and Boxing. That would obviously change if a MMA fighter emerged with Jow Ga and dominated their fights using Jow Ga. However, the likelihood of that happening is slim to zero for a variety of reasons.

 

[drop bear]

Lei Tai is sport too and uses similar techniques, Same as Sanda. TMA = Traditional Martial Arts. Boxing and Wrestling would qualify as a Traditional Martial Art.

The original comment was about sportive. And then became TMA. Which is where I was making the distinction.

 

[isshinryuronin]

It’s sport that has kept the martial arts as a whole from becoming obsolete, hence why plenty of “combative” training incorporates sports like boxing and Judo into their programs. Things are more “sportinized” these days because people recognize that martial sports tend to get better results than traditional martial arts, and is simply more applicable to the modern era.

I think you're a little off here. Sport has not kept MA from becoming obsolete, but it has kept it from dwindling and in the public eye. Pre-sport / non-sport TMA is still relevant if trained properly. Where I train we do not train for sport competition. There is nothing obsolete in what we practice.

I'll agree "that martial sports tend to get better results than traditional martial arts" IN A SPORTS ENVIRONMENT. In sport, one can only use legal moves as stipulated by the rules. Non-sport MA has no such restrictions. They are apples and oranges, but likewise share many similarities and effective techniques transferrable to each other's fighting environment.

 

[Hanzou]

The information is there. It's up to the individual to use it.

No matter how long that may stay in the elementary school, you will never be able to learn the quantum physics.

To a boxer, a hook is just a punch. To a CMA guy, a hook can be a punch, a wrist grab, or a downward parry.

And the boxer gets to apply that hook punch over and over again to the point of mastery, while the CMA guy is stuck with hundreds of techniques that he may never get to apply. What was that old Bruce Lee quote? I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times.

Like I said with Jow, theory is nice, but it's the results that matter.

 

[Hanzou]

I think you're a little off here. Sport has not kept MA from becoming obsolete, but it has kept it from dwindling and in the public eye. Pre-sport / non-sport TMA is still relevant if trained properly. Where I train we do not train for sport competition. There is nothing obsolete in what we practice.

I merely need to point to Judo vs Jujutsu to counter that argument. Jujutsu was pretty much dead in Japan, and it was Judo that preserved it, and helped keep it from dying out completely.

I'll agree "that martial sports tend to get better results than traditional martial arts" IN A SPORTS ENVIRONMENT. In sport, one can only use legal moves as stipulated by the rules. Non-sport MA has no such restrictions. They are apples and oranges, but likewise share many similarities and effective techniques transferrable to the other's fighting environment.

Which is like saying that a traditional karate style has an advantage over sport karate style because they have a throat ripping technique. They've never ripped anyone's throat out. They've never been able to fully practice ripping someone's throat out in a sparring session. Thus when it comes time to use throat rip technique, they have no idea how to use it. Meanwhile, the sport karate guys have gotten punched in the face, kicked in the ribs, done tons of cardio, and knocked a few people out with their blows.

If the two schools get into a fight, I'm not betting on the throat rippers.

In sport-based martial arts we acknowledge that there is an "elite" tier of martial artists who professionally compete and are considered the best in the world. In BJJ Gordon Ryan, Marcelo Garcia, and/or Roger Gracie are considered the GOATs. In Judo you have the olympians who are considered the top Judoka around. In MMA you have guys like Jon Jones or Aung Le Nsang. Are you saying that there are elite tier of traditional martial artists who simply don't compete and have never competed and would give the best martial athletes in the world a run for their money?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Examples of traditional Wrestling.

Traditional boxing

All of these are sportive except for the last one. The last one is a tradition where you workout your beef with someone. Where if you want to punch someone for whatever reason this is where it happens. In other word. If we all lived in this town, some of us would have eaten some punches by now.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

MMA is still too young. Just give another 20 more years, you will see more TMA techniques used in UFC.

 

[JowGaWolf]

while the CMA guy is stuck with hundreds of techniques that he may never get to apply.

I can use mine with no problem. I can apply it in more than one way as well. As for "stuck with hundreds of techniques that he may never get to apply. That's all on the fighter. I have used more than 51 Jow Ga techniques successfully in free sparring and have mastered these well enough to use in an actual fight. This only includes the techniques I've learned from forms. It does not includes techniques that are taught outside of forms. For me, I'm not "Stuck with stuff that I may never apply."

I know I'm not the norm, but I don't think I'm special either. I think people who have the same drive to actually learn how to apply techniques have similar results if not better. I was a late bloomer due to the large break I had in training which spanded for more than 10 years. Had I been able to continue training at a younger age I would have more time to learn how to apply techniques. But things are what they. My personal thoughts is that if someone doesn't get an opportunity to use what they train then they are doing one or more of these things.

• Not sparring
• Not trying to actually use the techniques
• Not committing to the techniques (bailing out)
• Only using the techniques in a Style A vs Style A environment. My personal experience is that Style A vs Style B give more opportunity. Style A vs Style A tends to know what each other is trying to do. In a Style A vs Style B, environment Style B will just take it as it comes.
• Have not learned how to correctly do the technique which means he or she would not be able to apply the technique.

The key here is to do a lot of sparring. The less sparring that you do the less opportunity you'll have to do different things.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I wouldn't train in Jow Ga because I have yet to see an MMA fighter effectively use it.

You don't need to see an MMA fighter use it effectively. You haven't seen anyone throw a rock at someone's head in MMA either, but that doesn't stop you from knowing that it's valid and works

You know it works because you know how to throw a rock. If you didn't know how to throw a rock then you may question the validity of it and doubt that it works.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Rule #1 for TMA application. Don't make it complicated.
If this is how you think of Kung fu application and basically TMA application regardless of the system, then you have to understand that this is now what the fighting looks like, nor should anyone think it will ever look like this. This is training for a different purpose. The ability to use some of these same techniques takes a less complicated path. It takes a simple path and it's more direct.

Depending on what technique you use, and when you use it, your fight may be very short.

The 20 chain combos, that you see in Wing Chun movies "Tooooo complicated"
This is a Wing Chun practitioner in a Lei Tai fight. As you see it doesn't take 20 chain punches to knock someone out. That entire concept of many punches to cause more damage doesn't fit well with the reality of fighting. A Wing Chun practitioner who is really training to apply their techniques are going to make each shot damaging, the soon your fall the better it is for them.

If you are making TMA techniques too complicated then you'll never learn how to apply it. If you are expecting that movie or forms fighting in a real fight. Then you'll never see it.