Old Martial Arts techniques.

[Hanzou]

MMA is still too young. Just give another 20 more years, you will see more TMA techniques used in UFC.

Not with the way the modern arts are evolving. In 20 years traditional MAs are going to be even more out of step than they are currently.

 

[Hanzou]

The key here is to do a lot of sparring. The less sparring that you do the less opportunity you'll have to do different things.

I agree with this, but how many TMA schools frown upon sparring completely? Didn’t you get tossed out of you original JG school because you advocated sparring? So all the people at your old school aren’t sparring at all, and it’s probably a feature of Jow Ga schools to not spar. That in turn causes the art to stagnate and wither on a vine.

Meanwhile arts in MMA gyms are sparring constantly, and constantly evolving. That has a dramatic effect between systems over time. Look at Aikido, Judo, and Bjj for example. Aikido has fallen so far off the wagon that some folks debate if it’s even a martial art anymore.

 

[Buka]

And the vast majority of these people who have zero interest do not have the skills nor the dedicated training hours to be effective in MMA. Some of these people who have BJJ skills would still lose in a street fight.

Professional fighters choose the skill sets that they feel will serve them best. Some may take BJJ not to win by using it but to have a better understanding what the other person is trying to do to them and how to escape it.

Not to nit pick, but trying to escape what the other person is trying to do IS using it. In it's purest sense in my opinion.

 

[Hanzou]

You don't need to see an MMA fighter use it effectively. You haven't seen anyone throw a rock at someone's head in MMA either, but that doesn't stop you from knowing that it's valid and works

You know it works because you know how to throw a rock. If you didn't know how to throw a rock then you may question the validity of it and doubt that it works.

Bad analogy is bad. I need to see evidence that the practice of Jow Ga would place me on par with other fighters who practice the more established MMA styles. If I’m spending 2 years studying Jow Ga instead of 2 years studying Muay Thai, I’ve wasted time and money and my training is behind where it should be. If you’re an up and comer, you’re probably not going to take that chance.

 

[drop bear]

I think you're a little off here. Sport has not kept MA from becoming obsolete, but it has kept it from dwindling and in the public eye. Pre-sport / non-sport TMA is still relevant if trained properly. Where I train we do not train for sport competition. There is nothing obsolete in what we practice.

I'll agree "that martial sports tend to get better results than traditional martial arts" IN A SPORTS ENVIRONMENT. In sport, one can only use legal moves as stipulated by the rules. Non-sport MA has no such restrictions. They are apples and oranges, but likewise share many similarities and effective techniques transferrable to each other's fighting environment.

Ok. So where is the evidence that non sport martial arts is better in a non sports environment.

I mean not training at all has even less rules than training a TMA so therefore those guys have the upper hand in a no rules fight.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Not with the way the modern arts are evolving. In 20 years traditional MAs are going to be even more out of step than they are currently.

I do believe this take down will be used in UFC within the next 20 years.

This is the most logic take down that has ever been developed on this planet. You use your

- arms to deal with your opponent's arms.
- leg to deal with your opponent's leg.

You don't need to drop your knee on the ground (lose your mobility). You also don't need to change levels (expose you head for punch or guillotine).

All you will need is to develop your skills for

- arm controlling, and
- leg cutting.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Not to nit pick, but trying to escape what the other person is trying to do IS using it. In it's purest sense in my opinion.

No it's not. You take BJJ. I train BJJ with you. I learn what moves you do and how you try to set them up. Once I'm familiar with that , they I can use a Jow Ga escape to deal with the BJJ.

Real world example. BJJ likes to do good takes downs. For the most part, many use a take down that positions themselves under the opponent' structure. This uproots me. So now that I have had a chance to experience this and understand the strategy, I can start looking a Jow Ga to see if Jow Ga or Chin na has a defense for these type of attacks. The end result was the low kung fu stance.

This stance reduces the amount of room that a BJJ practitioner would have to go under me. None of the "Best take downs for BBJ found here will work on me, because of the structure and height of my stance. It has Zero to do with my fighting ability. It is the structure of the stance. In this position my waist and hip are low and behind my front leg. My front leg can be protected by my hands. Because of my height, you would need to reach downward at an angle which is a much longer distant than grabbing someone straight head. I can still punch with both hands from this position. I can still kick from this position. You can come at me legs first if you like. This stance is still fairly mobile, more so than a BJJ person sliding around on their buts. Being this low also makes me a heavier lift.

What helped me realize this solution is from the horse playing that I used to do with my friends who were on the wrestling team. Then I took that theory and put it to the test and so far it's holding up. No matter what you try to do. You could never put me in this position so long as I'm in that stance.

This opportunity does not exist for you while I'm in that stance

This also doesn't exist.

This also doesn't exist because of the low stance. Here you see that he's under his opponent. Look at my stance. You can come at me all you want, but your structure will never be like this. Look at my stance and you'll see how low you actually have to get.

This doesn't exist either. While you can go for my ankle, I would never be in a position where I'm leaning over you like this. A quick shuffle back will take me out of your reach. I can quickly raise my front leg up to avoid the grab and then stomp down on the hand that tried to grab my ankle.

For things for a successful knee pick. 1. isn't going to happen while I'm in this position.

Now is there other stuff that can be done to take me down? Of course, it's not a defense perfect stance. But this is the Kung Fu solution to a lot of BJJ and wrestlers in general, like to go for.

Here's what helps me to understand martial arts. I like to personally feel what is being done to me so I can have a better understand how it works and what's needed in order for it to work.. How is the person trying to shift me or position me. It makes no sense for me play in the BJJ sandbox. It's better for me to understand what is being done and to find a tool in my own sandbox.

 

[drop bear]

I do believe this take down will be used in UFC within the next 20 years.

This is the most logic take down that has ever been developed on this planet. You use your

- arms to deal with your opponent's arms.
- leg to deal with your opponent's leg.

You don't need to drop your knee on the ground (lose your mobility). You also don't need to change levels (expose you head for punch or guillotine).

All you will need is to develop your skills for

- arm controlling, and
- leg cutting.

It is high risk.

 

[Hanzou]

I do believe this take down will be used in UFC within the next 20 years.

This is the most logic take down that has ever been developed on this planet. You use your

- arms to deal with your opponent's arms.
- leg to deal with your opponent's leg.

You don't need to drop your knee on the ground (lose your mobility). You also don't need to change levels (expose you head for punch or guillotine).

All you will need is to develop your skills for

- arm controlling, and
- leg cutting.

Arm drag inside/outside trip? That move has been in MMA for decades bro.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Didn’t you get tossed out of you original JG school because you advocated sparring? So all the people at your old school aren’t sparring at all, and it’s probably a feature of Jow Ga schools to not spar.

Some Jow Ga schools spar. Yep I got kick out because of that. Found out later on that the other instructor was spreading lies about me. As for the old school, it doesn't exist anymore.

Guy in black is a Jow Ga practitioner

The guy with his shirt off is MMA

As you can see they have been at it for a while. Same guy that teaches Jow Ga

 

[JowGaWolf]

I need to see evidence that the practice of Jow Ga would place me on par with other fighters who practice the more established MMA styles.

Just because you see that other can do it doesn't mean you'll have the skills to do it. You can train MMA for 10 years, but if your MMA training sucks, then you'll suck, regardless of who is good at it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Meanwhile arts in MMA gyms are sparring constantly, and constantly evolving. That has a dramatic effect between systems over time. Look at Aikido, Judo, and Bjj for example.

Some of these schools choose not to but that doesn't mean you have to do what they do. If you own a Judo school and you want to do more sparring then do more sparring.

 

[Hanzou]

Some Jow Ga schools spar. Yep I got kick out because of that. Found out later on that the other instructor was spreading lies about me. As for the old school, it doesn't exist anymore.

Guy in black is a Jow Ga practitioner

The guy with his shirt off is MMA

As you can see they have been at it for a while. Same guy that teaches Jow Ga

Two guys playfighting in the basement is supposed to prove what exactly?

 

[Hanzou]

Just because you see that other can do it doesn't mean you'll have the skills to do it. You can train MMA for 10 years, but if your MMA training sucks, then you'll suck, regardless of who is good at it.

Of course, but you don't handicap yourself by taking up a style that isn't going to give you the tools to be successful. Hence why MMA fighters learn Bjj instead of Ving Tsun Anti Grappling.

 

[Hanzou]

Some of these schools choose not to but that doesn't mean you have to do what they do. If you own a Judo school and you want to do more sparring then do more sparring.

Judo has always done sparring. They've done that since Kano founded the style. Sparring isn't the problem with Judo, and Judo is nowhere near the situation that Aikido is in.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Ving Tsun Anti Grappling.

What's the difference between training iron palm and iron shirt?

If you train

- iron palm, you will beat up your opponent.
- iron shirt, your opponent will beat up on you.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Two guys playfighting in the basement is supposed to prove what exactly?

They don't play fight. They train. I'm not proving anything. I'm showing you that some Jow Ga schools spar. If it doesn't rise to your expectation then that's not their problem. They don't take your opinion into consideration anymore than you take their opinion when you train. Regardless of what you think qualifies as "play fighting"

 

[Hanzou]

What's the difference between training iron palm and iron shirt?

If you train

- iron palm, you will beat up your opponent.
- iron shirt, your opponent will beat up on you.

Ving Tsun anti grappling is utter nonsense that will get you strangled or dumped on your head by even a novice grappler.

That’s the difference.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Of course, but you don't handicap yourself by taking up a style that isn't going to give you the tools to be successful.

Me choosing Jow Ga techniques don't handicap me as much as you think it does

 

[Hanzou]

They don't play fight. They train. I'm not proving anything. I'm showing you that some Jow Ga schools spar. If it doesn't rise to your expectation then that's not their problem. They don't take your opinion into consideration anymore than you take their opinion when you train. Regardless of what you think qualifies as "play fighting"

Training for what? I see no grappling in that video.