OP
OP
Then what's your complaint about Judo and sparring?
Old Martial Arts techniques.
- Thread starter JowGaWolf
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Hanzou
Grandmaster
You’re not an aspiring MMA fighter.
Uh, nothing. The oddball in that comparison was Aikido.
OP
OP
OMG dude. just because you don't see them do grappling in that one video doesn't mean they don' t do grappling. You don't see them eat in the video so they probably don't eat either
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Someone once said to me, if you’re the biggest fish in the pond, you’re in the wrong pond. If no one can take you down because you have a low stance, you’re not training with the right guys.
regarding TMA in MMA, we see it all the time. Two things always occur. 1, the TMA always looks a lot more like other striking or grappling arts than what we’ve ever seen in a TMA demo. And 2, guys who train in that style of TMA will ignore the differences. Because when you train for an application, function is more important than form. It reminds me of a comedian who told a joke about all Italians who watch Rocky came out of the theater thinking they were boxers.
regarding TMA in MMA, we see it all the time. Two things always occur. 1, the TMA always looks a lot more like other striking or grappling arts than what we’ve ever seen in a TMA demo. And 2, guys who train in that style of TMA will ignore the differences. Because when you train for an application, function is more important than form. It reminds me of a comedian who told a joke about all Italians who watch Rocky came out of the theater thinking they were boxers.
Hanzou
Grandmaster
You’ve posted multiple videos of these guys, and they haven’t done grappling in any of them. Again, what are they training for?
OP
OP
Doesn't matter. I train to use what I train.
If a person owns an Aikido school wants to have an Aikido school that does a lot of sparring then they are free to do that. If an Aikido practioner wants to spar then he or she can do that
Just because someone takes Aikido doesn't mean they can't spar and improve their skills
OP
OP
Yep multiple videos that you could have easily gone to their youtube channel and see them grappling, but you fail to do so because you are so stuck on your limit view of what you think they do and don't do.
Not my fault that YOU did not look beyond your own assumptions. Soooo. yeah I didn't post them grappling. If you want to see them grapple then go to their youtube channel.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
I think what you’re doing is cool, but just from what you’ve posted, it seems like you need to step up the actual resistance. Doesn’t feel like you’re being pressured at all. At least that’s the impression I get from your posts. You’ve mentioned training with BJJ guys to test your jow ga... but it doesn’t seem like you’ve done that yet. You seem like a good guy, friendly and not crazy. I really think if you explained what you’re doing, you’d have plenty of other good guys interested in helping you. Probably curious how their skills stack up, too.
wrestling, judo, mma, sambo... lots of people to meet.
to be clear, I like your approach, and applaud your stated intentions. Just seems like you’re still playing it really safe, and not taking any huge risks by testing your skills against people who may very well challenge you.
OP
OP
Read my post again look below. It's not my fault that the Wrestler and the BJJ guy didn't have an answer for my low stance.
So this guy isn't the right guy? Wrong pool? I think he's more than qualified to take me down. You don't think so?
Again, stop making martial arts mystical. Read my statement below. You guys are so quick to thing that Kung Fu is useless that you don't even understand why they weren't able to take me down and that's even after I sat here and told you. Unless I missed it, I did see you say that my point were invalid?
Then you totally missed the statement that I said below. TOTALLY MISSED. Stop thinking that BJJ is the only Answer. And stop thinking that I only train with people with no skill sets. You aren't insulting me. You are insulting them.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
what?
I don’t think BJJ is the only answer. But I do think you play it safe. I mean, if a strong, low stance is foolproof takedown defense against BJJ and wrestlers, you are sitting on a gold mine. More likely you aren’t taking risks by training with people who are skilled enough to push you.
and clearly, you haven’t heard that if it works, it’s bjj. Even if it wasn’t BJJ before. It’s a living style that is exceedingly practical. What works is BJJ, and what doesn’t is... I don’t know. Ninjutsu?
Edit. Just to make sure I understand... did you train with that kid in the YouTube video? Says his name is Sean billups. If not, I’m very confused why you’re bringing him into it.
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OP
OP
Have you ever tried to do an actual kung fu technique? Give it a try and let me know if you are being pressured enough as you try to pull it off without nailed.
I don't know BJJ so anyone who knows BJJ is going to be better than me at it. I can't tell a BJJ person how to take me down when I'm in a low stance like that. I know 2 things. It keeps people from getting under me and it keeps my body from being in a position that puts me in more danger. I also know I have yet to meet someone that had an answer right off the back. Most BJJ practitioners spar with people who take similar or taller stance.
To prove my point. How many people have sparred against someone who takes a low stance like that when you are grappling? If your Answer is NONE. Then why would you think you would have an answer to something you never had to deal with before?
How many of you have sparred with people who actually used long fist techniques along with hooks and sweeps?
How many of you have sparred with a Jow Ga practitioner who actually knows how to use Jow Ga and not generic kickboxing?
I'm sure BJJ has an answer for my low stance, but it's not something you'll know right off the back without thinking "What would I do if someone did a low stance like that? You know what I didn't hear? I didn't hear anyone offer any suggestion about how they might try to deal with something like that. Instead. I get "I'm not sure I'm being pressured enough " Even though I've broken my finger twice, got a black eye and injury my back numerous times sparring.
Not only that, I've even shown videos here of my failures.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
So, then you didn’t train with the kid in the video, and This is theoretical.
Fwiw, @Hanzou did mention arm drags, etc, and you blew him off.
I bet jow ga can work if you put it through a pressure cooker with some specific application in mind. But that will involve risk, because while you might find that it works, you may lean you just aren’t skilled enough to make it work yet, or you may learn that it won’t ever work at all.
try this. If you think you’ve got a good stance, go hang out with some Greco Roman guys and see what they think.
Edit. Just to add, it’s not about whether you broke a finger or two. It’s about your statements regarding your stance, and the anecdotes you choose to share. You talk about challenging a teenager with no training, but show videos of highlights of high level high school freestyle wrestlers.
to be clear, I don’t really care what you do. But I like what you’re saying, I just don’t get the impression you’re swimming in the right pond. Go find some guys like that kid in the YouTube video you shared, try your stuff out and I’m genuinely interested in how it goes.
The low and wide stance has advantage that your opponent is hard to reach to your back leg.
I don't mind my opponent to reach to my leading leg. I don't want my opponent to reach to my back leg.
I don't mind my opponent to reach to my leading leg. I don't want my opponent to reach to my back leg.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
BJJ guys take a high stance because they are lazy stand up.
Wrestlers will quite often take a lower stance.
And I still think a low single or an ankle pick would drop you. Especially as to how far forward you put that leg.
I get caught with variations of this a bit and there is even a sneaky wrap the front leg then take the double.
I can't see how if that front leg comes off the ground you are not falling straight over. Your feet are just too wide.
See where your hips are? You need both feet on the ground for you to be upright. They pull the foot towards them where your weight isn't.
For a single leg defence to work your hips basically need to be up to take power away from that front leg.
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OP
OP
It's not a foolproof takedown defense. I've already stated as much. It's also not magic. There are a lot of risks that go with it. For example, dealing with low kicks at that level. Totally dangerous from numerous aspects.
In terms of playing it safe. I really don't play it safe, because I acknowledge when I screw up. I don't go into some "Oh if I was serious, I would have done A,B,C. " So in that sense if you pop me in the head when I'm trying to pull off a technique. That's a serious mistake even if I'm working at a low intensity. If you are able to hit me at a lower intensity then I don't have any doubt that you could have easily done the same technique with more power and strike the same target. I"m honest about things like that. That helps me understand the danger in. If I was so dense that I needed to be KO to know when I screwed up badly then I wouldn't be much of a martial artist. I wouldn't be much of anything due the brain damage I would have received. My awareness is good enough that a good strike or a solid one that's not full power is more than enough to make me aware.
In terms of receiving strikes. I need a certain level of punching power attacking me because it helps with timing, body conditioning, and it creates that dislike for being hit. Strikes and grappling attempts that are too light causes people to calibrate everything incorrectly. If I'm standing in a low stance as a way to defend against your grappling attempts then take it as a sign that I take your grappling serious. For me to do something like that is an acknowledgement that I think your grappling skills are of a concern. If I take a high stance then what I'm telling you is that your grappling skills is of little concern and that any attempt you try, I can handle while in a high stance. In other words I don't respect your grappling skills.
The people I've trained with the exception of maybe 3 or 4 are more than skilled enough to push me. The instructor that I show sparring with may not have the best Jow Ga skills, but he does have the aggressiveness and a lack of control both in skill set and emotionally that forces me to really be alert. One day he told me that he hits me so hard because he knows I can take it. Just because I can take the punishment doesn't mean I want it. What if I'm trying to do a new technique and he takes advantage of that and blasts me with a hard shot. That's the worst kind of risk because that makes him unpredictable as a sparring partner. Which would explain some of the injuries that I've had because of him.
isshinryuronin
Senior Master
And yet you train with him. You are one motivated (if not too smart) student!
Ha Ha. Though it does sound like he keeps you on your game.Seriously, I was going to question your low stance as making you vulnerable to head kicks, stomps on your lead knee, strong sweeps...as well as it limiting your mobility. Reading more carefully, it seems you employ it for the particular purpose of takedown/grappling defense, otherwise you are more upright? I can understand that. If you haven't seen your opponent fight before, which stance is your default stance?
OP
OP
No I don't train with him. No it's not theoretical. We don't do the same training. He as a college scholarship for wrestling so I can't do anything that may mess that up for him. When I gave him a try I told him I wouldn't strike him back and all he had to do was take me down. I told him I had a theory about the low stance and for him to give a good effort. And he did within the limitations of the environment. We weren't on a mat so there were a lot of wrestling entries that would have damaged his knees if he he tried and got it wrong. He tried a couple of times anyway. He went for my front let and I defended my front leg. When he thought I would be static, I moved and there was nothing for him to grab. He tried grabbing my hand and I was able to do some simple Chin Na escapes that prevented him to grabbing my arm. From what I could tell from my end. My low stance made his stance inefficient for what how he usually wrestles. For example, he would never see someone stand like that in his wrestling competitions. He's stronger than me. I'm heavier than he is. back thin I think it was by 25 pounds, but he could easily deal with 195 pounds. He's strong enough for that. He has pushed defensive linemen heavier than me.
I don't like to debate "what I would do" in theory. I rather focus on things that I actually could do. For example, me being able to stomp on someone's hand from that stance is not difficult. Because the stance is low, the stomp comes down a lot harder and faster than it would if I was in a higher stance. Give it a try and you will get the same result So when I talk martial arts I don't want to talk about theories as much as I do about "What are my realistic options."
If I knew some Greco Roman wrestlers, I would. Because I want to know where the limitations are and when the technique fails. Knowing that a technique is successful is not the most important thing. Knowing when it will fail is the most important thing. Knowing when it will fail will keep you from doing the stupid things.
Things about the low stance.
Change the angle that someone must take to grab your leg. This will make it difficult especially if you have hands that will interfere. Someone comes in to grab the leg then move. Like Kung Fu Wang stated the distance of your stance is important. If someone can get your rear leg then it's the same as grabbing the front leg.
In the picture the guy on the left has the Worst Stance. Someone who is good at taking your legs without shooting on them will make you pay dearly for standing like this. If he moves his right leg then his left leg is still in danger. If he moves his left leg then his right leg is still in danger. From this position he has no rear leg. He can try to sprawl, but he won't sprawl if you sweep..
The BJJ guy on the left does a BJJ version of my low stance. If there was striking involved then his face would be in danger. But we'll only look at the grappling aspect. To see the similarities
- both stances reduce the amount of space that someone has to get under you. My stance does this. If my stance is no good then that BJJ stance above is equally trash.
- Hands are position so that you can protect your front leg (knee down). Because my stance is this low I can use my hand to defend my front leg.
- Rear leg is far back in the safety zone. If he steps back with his front leg, then his rear leg will still be safe, unlike the guy on the left. My stance does this too. Even though he is close to my front leg he is still far away from my rear leg. Even if he wants to shoot for that rear leg, it will be near impossible because the low stance means that the shoot will start lower than normal and as a result will hit the ground before he reaches the back leg.
- If a person tries to over run the low stance then you automatically are under the person. You have probably remember seeing this when I picked someone up
Disadvantage for BJJ stance. He cannot do the same but he can step back or sprawl. I can also step back, but I cannot sprawl from this position.
Advantage for BJJ stance. He can make that area under his body while maintaining a comfortable stance.
Disadvantage for me. I cannot not make that area smaller without making my stance lower. If my stance becomes too low then it will not be functional. It also takes me more energy to maintain this stance which is why it is said "Your horse stance should be strong." Don't believe me. Get into this stance and you'll find out just how strong your legs aren't and you'll have a good idea of how strong the must be.
Advantage for me, I'm in a position that is safer to receive and give strikes. Or doing things like lifting my foot to stomp on someone's hands.
Disadvantage for BJJ . His structure will not allow him life his front leg to stomp in a stable manner. If I can kick his legs or hands, then I can kick is face. That's a front kick party all day long.
1-4 is what makes the BJJ stance work. My stance has 1- 4 which is why it works. It is a Kung Fu solution not a BJJ solution. If my stance is no good then the BJJ stance is equally trash.
These stances are equally trash as well Even thought they meet the 4 key points.. Like I said before you guys make this stuff way to complicated
OP
OP
I know the black guy in the video very well. He would tell you the same thing I would tell you. Use your hands to slow , obstruct the forward movement and at the same time move your leg back. You can do this a couple of way. if you can push the head down or side ways then you can prevent him from getting that second leg. The thing that you don't see in this video is the guy on the left is not using his hands to stop the entry. If you watch closely you can see his natural response being triggered as he almost places his hand on the attacker.
I also don't think my knee is in a good position for that second move where he collapses the knee my knee is facing the wrong direction. Again. I'm not sure because no one to date has gotten that far. You have to keep in mind that my goal isn't to stand still and do the legendary "you can't move me kung fu stance." My goal is to make it difficult to control for you to control my leg or attack my center with grappling.
Because it doesn't come very high off the ground. It's a very fast lift then stomp. You have no other choice to make it quick, If you stand up straight and lift your leg then you can keep you leg in the air as long as you want to. If you are in this low stance then it's a very quick lift and a very quick return to the earth. Unlike the BJJ stance that I compared this with, most of my weight isn't on that front leg. like the picture below. If you stand like this, then you won't be able to pick up that front foot as I described and you will fall over. The structure of the stance caused by the torso leaning forward does not allow it.
I'm not sure but it maybe possible to shift into a cat stance to avoid the ankle pick.
shuffle back, step back. at the same time use your hands to interfere with the grab. I'm not even sure if it's possible to lift a person's leg up like that before because of the low angle he would be at. Which is probably not done in the wrestler video that you posted. In that case it would be faster to use the head to break the stance. I would have to see where that wrestler was before he had his leg jacked up like that.
Hanzou
Grandmaster
Which wasn’t the point. The point is an aspiring MMA fighter isn’t going to take up something like Jow Ga until it proves to be beneficial to what they do in the ring.
I never said they couldn’t. The problem is that their sparring is simply not structured like in Judo and Bjj, and that leads to the results you’re seeing in those videos; broken grappling entries with little fluidity and loads of missed opportunities, like back takes...
OP
OP
He was all that I had to work with. My wife wasn't too happy about it. One day she got mad at me and said "You are always letting him beat you up. You should do the same to him." If my wife would tell you the story, it will start of how he treated me then it turn into her being mad at me for not hurting him like he hurt me. I have once of those incidents on video where he did a groin kick on me after catching my leg. He catches my leg, I screwed up, he knew I screwed up, there was a pause where he continues to hold my leg and then he kicks me in groin.And yet you train with him. You are one motivated (if not too smart) student!
It took me down for about 15 minutes. When we started to spar again, I had an aggression that I don't normally display and he could tell I was angry. But that anger doesn't matter because I didn't stomp in the ground like I felt like doing. I kept my control and my anger.
So the stance is good. Knee stomps are more likely to hurt the person stomping on my knee. I use this same stance to show prospective students and current students why it's best if you have a good stance. I would get into this stance and tell them to stomp on my knee. At first they stomp light because they think it's going to break, then they stomp harder and realize that it's pretty solid. The angle of the knee is what makes it work. My thigh isn't vertical enough for the stomps to target my leg. As long as my knee is bent at that angle, there's nothing to worry about. Keep in mind we kick with shoes on.
Side kick to the face, Round house to the face is a real risk. Like I wouldn't do this in front of a Muay Thai fighter. It's also not the default stance that I start with. People who look like they want to grab you don't have the same look as people who want to strike you. If I don't think my opponent's grappling is dangerous then I won't bother with it. People who are dangerous with grappling do not move the same way as people who are bad at it. if I haven't fought some one before, I will stay at a good distance so I can observe the stance. People who want to grab stand different than those who want to punch and kick. The best way I can describe it, is that the stance doesn't look committed to striking. If you watch MMA matches, you can tell when they want to strike vs trying to lure people with strikes. Watch their stance and not the punches. Like when you see BJJ do the legs kicks. Those kicks aren't as committed as someone who is trying to make you limp.
Sweeps to the leg. That's possible if they know how to do sweeps. Most people I've seen suck at them and don't like them. The low stance is mobile, but not like the higher stance where you can really move around. The low stance mobility is what I call Short Mobility.
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