Okinawian Kempo, Shaolin Kenpo, American Kenpo

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Finally, the claim that if you combine two arts (in this case shaolin Kung Fu and kenpo) will result in not learning either art and ending up with garbage is a claim I would disagree with heavily. Many arts have come about by someone learning two arts and finding a way to effectively combine them. Regardless of your opinion of SKK (and from the videos you posted I can definitely understand it) I would disagree with that generalized claim. The most obvious example to me is JKD, which combines multiple arts and ended up with a very effective system.

 

[hoshin1600]

First, I have never seen anything like what is done in any of those videos.

i would also like to point out that the Kenpo as done in Hawaii never had any forms. that being said everyone and their brother created, borrowed and stole forms and added them to whatever curriculum they were teaching. many were tossed out as well over time and replaced with whatever that individual felt like doing.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

i would also like to point out that the Kenpo as done in Hawaii never had any forms. that being said everyone and their brother created, borrowed and stole forms and added them to whatever curriculum they were teaching. many were tossed out as well over time and replaced with whatever that individual felt like doing.

Villari admitted entirely that he stole forms from Karate and utilized them in his system. It's where the 'Karate' in Shaolin kempo karate is from, and he never claimed Kenpo had forms. It's a very good thing to point out though, as people ignore the last K and assume he only combined Shaolin martial arts and Kenpo.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

well in fact both Villari and Cerio used the following kata for white to black ranks (the names where changed so i will use the original Okinawan names.
Taikyoku shodan
Taikyoku nidan
Pinan sandan
PInan Yondan
Pinan Godan

I edited my original post earlier and just saw this now - what I meant was I've never seen a pinan performed in this way. Way to sloppy and done without knowledge of basic principles

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'm not sure about anyone else but this is a technique that I drill all the time. In kung fu there is really only one way to perform this technique and that is to move off center. Doing this technique correctly will mean that there's no opportunity for them to kick you or elbow you, especially after they are in pain from a broken rib or out of breath from the punch landing. This technique is common in kung fu but the way that he's showing it is all wrong. It makes the assumption that there is going to be a sleeve to grab. Had he not grabbed the sleeve he would have had the hand free to punch the face.

You have to be really careful when you take these new martial art systems that are combining multiple martial arts techniques from different fighting systems and calling it something that's a combination name.

 

[JowGaWolf]

never thought i would see the day i was defending kenpo but....
you do remember all karate started in China, saying someones martial art is "all wrong" and posting a few vids you think are horrible is not a rabbit hole i would want to go down.

I'm not worried about it. I'm comfortable enough with kung fu to recognize basic techniques.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I am not aware of any shaolin temple boxing or Chin Na in SKK. For Kung Fu, there are some higher level Kung Fu forms I have not yet learned, but for the most part what it takes from Kung Fu is looking at the five animals in (I believe) Hung Ga, and using those animals to help people understand what techniques will be most useful to them. This is a really useful addition to the art IMHO.
But as for the original description, I call baloney on that schools claims.


Was this form incorporated into SKK, or are you just using it as an example? I don't see any reference in the video to SKK and don't recognize the form. I also couldn't find anything about it and kempo/kenpo in a cursory google search. No idea what it is supposed to look like in either system, so cant comment on it.

Was this form incorporated into SKK, or are you just using it as an example?

The first video of the guy is some kind of karate mixed with what seems to be techniques from Jow Ga's Sei Ping Kyun. The kung fu that is done in that form is horrible. If I were to do the form you would be able to see how closely the order of certain movements are similar to Jow Ga.

With the other stuff. I have no idea of what Shaolin Kempo is supposed to look like but my expectations would be that the founder would be at a minimum of a Sifu skill level in form and application of Shaolin Kung fu and the Highest skill level in form and application of Kempo. Only someone who is highly skilled in both, in actually fighting would be able to be successful in putting 2 different fighting systems together in order to make a new fighting system.

When it comes to new martial arts systems people have to be very cautious about what is being taught. Many times you can look at the root systems that make up the martial art in order to tell if they are doing it correct. Kempo foot work and punches should look like Kempo. Kung Fu footwork and punches should look like Kung Fu.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I'm not sure about anyone else but this is a technique that I drill all the time. In kung fu there is really only one way to perform this technique and that is to move off center. Doing this technique correctly will mean that there's no opportunity for them to kick you or elbow you, especially after they are in pain from a broken rib or out of breath from the punch landing. This technique is common in kung fu but the way that he's showing it is all wrong. It makes the assumption that there is going to be a sleeve to grab. Had he not grabbed the sleeve he would have had the hand free to punch the face.

You have to be really careful when you take these new martial art systems that are combining multiple martial arts techniques from different fighting systems and calling it something that's a combination name.

I had to watched this on the YouTube, and I agree you should be off line, but it is too nice. Parries should hurt.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Is this how the Shaolin Kenpo is supposed to look? Can someone who takes Shaolin Kenpo please post what it's supposed to look like?

 

[Flying Crane]

Finally, the claim that if you combine two arts (in this case shaolin Kung Fu and kenpo) will result in not learning either art and ending up with garbage is a claim I would disagree with heavily. Many arts have come about by someone learning two arts and finding a way to effectively combine them. Regardless of your opinion of SKK (and from the videos you posted I can definitely understand it) I would disagree with that generalized claim. The most obvious example to me is JKD, which combines multiple arts and ended up with a very effective system.

Most people are unable to effectively combine multiple methods. Simply collecting techniques and forms is not the way to do it. A good system has an underlying set of principles, upon which the method is based. These principles, or how they are embodied can be very different from one system to another, even to the point of being opposed. If you try to mix that, it just doesn't work. Working on some part of that mix can be detrimental to another part of the mix.

Yes, some people have bees able to effectively mix methods. Most cannot, and most who try, should not.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Most people are unable to effectively combine multiple methods. Simply collecting techniques and forms is not the way to do it. A good system has an underlying set of principles, upon which the method is based. These principles, or how they are embodied can be very different from one system to another, even to the point of being opposed. If you try to mix that, it just doesn't work. Working on some part of that mix can be detrimental to another part of the mix.

Yes, some people have bees able to effectively mix methods. Most cannot, and most who try, should not.

I would not argue with any of this. Ordinarily, it ends up horribly. However, there have been times that it has been done effectively, and simply making the blanket statement that if you combine any japanese art with any chinese art it will never work diminishes those that have managed to do it well.

 

[Flying Crane]

I would not argue with any of this. Ordinarily, it ends up horribly. However, there have been times that it has been done effectively, and simply making the blanket statement that if you combine any japanese art with any chinese art it will never work diminishes those that have managed to do it well.

there are/were exceptions, but that doesn't diminish the rule.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I had to watched this on the YouTube, and I agree you should be off line, but it is too nice. Parries should hurt.

they should hurt and be strong enough to move the incoming punch off target. The way that the video shows it is going to cause students to walk into strong punches because that parry is weak. The way that they are also trying to do the technique won't work against someone with longer arm reach.

 

[EddieCyrax]

I'm not sure about anyone else but this is a technique that I drill all the time. In kung fu there is really only one way to perform this technique and that is to move off center. Doing this technique correctly will mean that there's no opportunity for them to kick you or elbow you, especially after they are in pain from a broken rib or out of breath from the punch landing. This technique is common in kung fu but the way that he's showing it is all wrong. It makes the assumption that there is going to be a sleeve to grab. Had he not grabbed the sleeve he would have had the hand free to punch the face.

You have to be really careful when you take these new martial art systems that are combining multiple martial arts techniques from different fighting systems and calling it something that's a combination name.

I am a Shaolin Kempo practicioner. Combination 3 as taught to me has a couple differences to the video shown. First and foremost is the open hand block with the left hand is not a mere check of the incoming punch. This should be delivered with force to deflect the punch downward or outward to break the attacker's posture or rotate them to further open up their rib cage. This will eliminate the need to grab the sleeve. Once the block is initiated it will stay there as a check until it turns into a strike. The attacker will then be set up for the head strike or other deviations. The need to move off center is a must as well and will create additional opportunities. There are many versions of Combination 3 that extend the action based on the reaction of the attacker.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I am a Shaolin Kempo practicioner. Combination 3 as taught to me has a couple differences to the video shown. First and foremost is the open hand block with the left hand is not a mere check of the incoming punch. This should be delivered with force to deflect the punch downward or outward to break the attacker's posture or rotate them to further open up their rib cage. This will eliminate the need to grab the sleeve. Once the block is initiated it will stay there as a check until it turns into a strike. The attacker will then be set up for the head strike or other deviations. The need to move off center is a must as well and will create additional opportunities. There are many versions of Combination 3 that extend the action based on the reaction of the attacker.

I'm thinking the downward deflection would get in the way of your counter punch. If you deflect it downward then you'll end up hitting his arm even if you are trying to hit his face. I've done this technique plenty of times and that parry to the punch happens really quick and it just seems that you'll be busting your knuckles against his if you redirect the attack downward.

Can you create a video of you doing this technique at 80% speed with 10%-20% power actually making contact with the with counter and not air punching?

 

[Touch Of Death]

I'm thinking the downward deflection would get in the way of your counter punch. If you deflect it downward then you'll end up hitting his arm even if you are trying to hit his face. I've done this technique plenty of times and that parry to the punch happens really quick and it just seems that you'll be busting your knuckles against his if you redirect the attack downward.

Can you create a video of you doing this technique at 80% speed with 10%-20% power actually making contact with the with counter and not air punching?

Ok, I'm just seeing your issue. You will hit yourself, if you don't turn your body, and center your motion. I am seeing Ed Parker, like, B1a stuff, even though it is disguised. LOL
However, downward is a good direction. I think moving properly will fix the issue.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Ok, I'm just seeing your issue. You will hit yourself, if you don't turn your body, and center your motion. I am seeing Ed Parker, like, B1a stuff, even though it is disguised. LOL
However, downward is a good direction. I think moving properly will fix the issue.

Downward blocking/parring is good to do depending on the follow up counter. I do quite a bit of downward blocking as well and I've goofed on a few attempts where the downward parry causes the attacking punch to hit me in my stomach instead of my chest or face. For the downward parry I would get out of the range of that attacking punch so it doesn't hit me when I redirect it downward. I already know that the opponent will want to return that arm back as quickly as possible. When he tries to return it, then my parrying hand will return with it striking my opponent's face.
This is where "sticking hands" becomes really useful to me.

Most of my understanding of my kung fu techiques come from me doing the wrong thing at the wrong time and getting hit. Pain is a good learning incentive. Once I get hit doing a technique wrong then there's very little chance that I'll do it again.

 

[Buka]

I don't think a parry should necessarily hurt. It's not the primary purpose of a parry. As a bonus, okay, I'll take it, but I'll take anything. I think to concentrate on a parry that hurts is to take away the immediate purpose of the parry itself and I believe it can throw off your timing.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Downward blocking/parring is good to do depending on the follow up counter. I do quite a bit of downward blocking as well and I've goofed on a few attempts where the downward parry causes the attacking punch to hit me in my stomach instead of my chest or face. For the downward parry I would get out of the range of that attacking punch so it doesn't hit me when I redirect it downward. I already know that the opponent will want to return that arm back as quickly as possible. When he tries to return it, then my parrying hand will return with it striking my opponent's face.
This is where "sticking hands" becomes really useful to me.

Most of my understanding of my kung fu techiques come from me doing the wrong thing at the wrong time and getting hit. Pain is a good learning incentive. Once I get hit doing a technique wrong then there's very little chance that I'll do it again.

Fine, but I am saying, that if you turn your body to face on the downward diagonal parry, you can run a punch up the middle...

 

[Touch Of Death]

I don't think a parry should necessarily hurt. It's not the primary purpose of a parry. As a bonus, okay, I'll take it, but I'll take anything. I think to concentrate on a parry that hurts is to take away the immediate purpose of the parry itself and I believe it can throw off your timing.

Dude, it should knock him across the room.