Okinawian Kempo, Shaolin Kenpo, American Kenpo

[Blindside]

I just dug into the back of my closet where old boxes go to die. Found something I think you Kempo guys will get a kick out of. I'll bring it to work and see if I can get it scanned.

Tease!

 

[JowGaWolf]

I've never heard of shoalin kempo before. When I see that my brain translate it as chinese Japanese martial art. In my mind these two things cannot exist together unless it has a new name to describe the combination of two fighting systems. Even then I would be cautious.
I've seen videos of people trying to mix the two and it always comes out wrong meaning you will never be good with shaolin and you'll never be good with kempo and 90% of what you'll learn will probably be garbage. Either take Shaolin or Kempo but never something called. Shoalin Kempo

 

[Touch Of Death]

I've never heard of shoalin kempo before. When I see that my brain translate it as chinese Japanese martial art. In my mind these two things cannot exist together unless it has a new name to describe the combination of two fighting systems. Even then I would be cautious.
I've seen videos of people trying to mix the two and it always comes out wrong meaning you will never be good with shaolin and you'll never be good with kempo and 90% of what you'll learn will probably be garbage. Either take Shaolin or Kempo but never something called. Shoalin Kempo

It is just a name ya slap on a sign, relax. LOL

 

[Touch Of Death]

This America! I can open a school called, "Panda Kenpo" and it will do ok with the kids. Does not a rose by any other name, smell as sweet?

 

[JowGaWolf]

It is just a name ya slap on a sign, relax. LOL

Here's a description from a Shaolin Kempo Karate school "Shaolin Kempo Karate is a unique system of Self-Defense with the combined structure Shaolin Kung-Fu, Kempo Karate, and Jiu-jitsu. Through this combination you can effectively learn to protect yourself against any harmful situation as well as learn discipline, self-control, self-esteem, confidence and a positive way to good health...."
Source:Shaolin Kempo Karate Martial Arts Classes in Shepherdsville, Kentucky

Here's a wikipedia entry about Shaoline Kempo Karate
"Shaolin Kempo Karate (or "SKK") is a martial art style that combines the Five Animals of Shaolin Kung Fu, the core competency of Kempo, the hard-hitting linear explosiveness of traditional Karate, as well as the power of Western boxing and the felling and grappling arts of Jujutsu, Chin Na, and Mongolian wrestling.[1] This system was founded and developed by Fredrick J. Villari (a former black belt student of Nick Cerio and William Kwai Sun Chow),[2][3] who devised a hybrid system which integrated the four ways of fighting: striking, kicking, felling, and grappling to eliminate the inherent weakness of martial arts systems that focus on just one or two of fighting techniques."

Here's another description from another Shaolin Kempo School
"The art of Shaolin Kempo Karate has developed from numerous styles of the martial arts including Shaolin Temple Boxing, Jiu Jitsu,
Kung Fu, Kempo, different styles of Karate, as well as the secret art of the White Tiger (Chin Na). Each fighting system offers
something both unique and special, but each also has its weaknesses that make a fighter vulnerable."

Sei Ping Kuen (Kyun) is the name of a Jow Ga Form. There are other kung fu systems that have a similar name. And each kung fu system can recognize each their own version. This is what it looks like when someone mixes Kung Fu and Karate Together. You end up with a system that doesn't do justice to either Karate or Kung Fu. I believe this particular video took stuff out of Jow Ga's Sei Ping Kyun form and the kung fu that is applied here is done completely wrong. The forms that he's doing has no real world application

So while you may think it's just a name. Sometimes the martial art is just as it says on the door.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This is actual Shaolin Kempo forms so I'm guessing this is what you can expect

This is a video of the founder of Shaolin Kempo

 

[Touch Of Death]

Well, in the first vid, the foot positionings were lazy if not terrible.

 

[Buka]

This is actual Shaolin Kempo forms so I'm guessing this is what you can expect

This is a video of the founder of Shaolin Kempo

Not the Kempo I know or ever saw.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Here's a description from a Shaolin Kempo Karate school "Shaolin Kempo Karate is a unique system of Self-Defense with the combined structure Shaolin Kung-Fu, Kempo Karate, and Jiu-jitsu. Through this combination you can effectively learn to protect yourself against any harmful situation as well as learn discipline, self-control, self-esteem, confidence and a positive way to good health...."
Source:Shaolin Kempo Karate Martial Arts Classes in Shepherdsville, Kentucky

Here's a wikipedia entry about Shaoline Kempo Karate
"Shaolin Kempo Karate (or "SKK") is a martial art style that combines the Five Animals of Shaolin Kung Fu, the core competency of Kempo, the hard-hitting linear explosiveness of traditional Karate, as well as the power of Western boxing and the felling and grappling arts of Jujutsu, Chin Na, and Mongolian wrestling.[1] This system was founded and developed by Fredrick J. Villari (a former black belt student of Nick Cerio and William Kwai Sun Chow),[2][3] who devised a hybrid system which integrated the four ways of fighting: striking, kicking, felling, and grappling to eliminate the inherent weakness of martial arts systems that focus on just one or two of fighting techniques."

Here's another description from another Shaolin Kempo School
"The art of Shaolin Kempo Karate has developed from numerous styles of the martial arts including Shaolin Temple Boxing, Jiu Jitsu,
Kung Fu, Kempo, different styles of Karate, as well as the secret art of the White Tiger (Chin Na). Each fighting system offers
something both unique and special, but each also has its weaknesses that make a fighter vulnerable."

Sei Ping Kuen (Kyun) is the name of a Jow Ga Form. There are other kung fu systems that have a similar name. And each kung fu system can recognize each their own version. This is what it looks like when someone mixes Kung Fu and Karate Together. You end up with a system that doesn't do justice to either Karate or Kung Fu. I believe this particular video took stuff out of Jow Ga's Sei Ping Kyun form and the kung fu that is applied here is done completely wrong. The forms that he's doing has no real world application

So while you may think it's just a name. Sometimes the martial art is just as it says on the door.

Not my cup of Koolaid.

 

[hoshin1600]

This is what it looks like when someone mixes Kung Fu and Karate Together. You end up with a system that doesn't do justice to either Karate or Kung Fu. I believe this particular video took stuff out of Jow Ga's Sei Ping Kyun form and the kung fu that is applied here is done completely wrong. The forms that he's doing has no real world application

never thought i would see the day i was defending kenpo but....
you do remember all karate started in China, saying someones martial art is "all wrong" and posting a few vids you think are horrible is not a rabbit hole i would want to go down.

 

[Touch Of Death]

never thought i would see the day i was defending kenpo but....
you do remember all karate started in China, saying someones martial art is "all wrong" and posting a few vids you think are horrible is not a rabbit hole i would want to go down.

I can see bad footwork, no center line adherence, and some nosebleed rank; so, I will be your Elmer Fud.

 

[hoshin1600]

here is the same kata done in a different style

some changes but i could pull lots of clips of the same kata from different styles and all will look a little different

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Jowgawolf-Going to comment on the videos separately. However, while SKK (not SK) was created by Villari, most people have split from him and taken the art in a very different direction, so videos of him are not a good way to judge Shaolin Kempo.
If you go to around the second page of this thread, I explained why it is called Shaolin Kempo Karate, and why Shaolin Kenpo is called that. You're free to dislike the art, many do, but that should explain how/why they are called what they are.

 

[hoshin1600]

I can see bad footwork, no center line adherence, and some nosebleed rank; so, I will be your Elmer Fud.

im not saying the clip was a good kata preformance, i am pointing out that a blend of martial art from both Japanese and Chinese does not equate a poor system in fact ALL Okinawan styles are exactly that. a blend between Chinese and Okinawan arts

 

[hoshin1600]

Jowgawolf-those videos you posted are not anything that I have seen in Shaolin Kempo.

well in fact both Villari and Cerio used the following kata for white to black ranks (the names where changed so i will use the original Okinawan names.
Taikyoku shodan
Taikyoku nidan
Pinan sandan
PInan Yondan
Pinan Godan

 

[Touch Of Death]

im not saying the clip was a good kata preformance, i am pointing out that a blend of martial art from both Japanese and Chinese does not equate a poor system in fact ALL Okinawan styles are exactly that. a blend between Chinese and Okinawan arts

While obviously influenced, the brand of kenpo I do, and of that "Tenth Degree", doesn not claim Okinawan origin.

 

[hoshin1600]

While obviously influenced, the brand of kenpo I do, and of that "Tenth Degree", doesn not claim Okinawan origin.

no but for years the sign on the wall and the marketing said " a blend of karate and kung-fu" or Japanese and chinese arts. these are the same beginer forms created by Anku Itosu and taught in Shotokan buy Funakoshi.. albiet with modifications,, but then Funakoshi modified Itosu's forms so who is to say what is right and wrong and who has authorization to do so.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

This is actual Shaolin Kempo forms so I'm guessing this is what you can expect

This is a video of the founder of Shaolin Kempo

First, I have never seen anything like what is done in any of those videos.
For the first video: In my school we do learn pinan's, but pinan godan is something we would not have learned at brown belt. It is done differently then how it is performed at my school (I may include a video of me doing a pinan, but that would first require me to find a camera and wait for the snow to melt so I can do it outside). Also, the person doing it seemed to have no energy, and I've never seen a brown belt do any movement with that kind of laziness, especially if they are being taped for a demonstration.
For the second video: Have never seen that, or heard of that form, but it may be something that I have not learned yet since he is a black belt, and I can't see the degree (I am only a 1st degree). Once again, he is incredibly lazy, and clearly has no knowledge of how to appropriately shift his body through the movements. If he was at either of the SKK schools I trained at, I can almost guarantee he would not have become a black belt with that level of performance of anything.
For the final video: This is more similar to what we practice, however it reminds me of why I dislike Villari/why we turned from him. In my school we do half fighting, half self defense techniques, but the techniques have evolved multiple times as we always try them on resisting opponents and adapt them to fit ourselves. If we discover a way to more effectively perform a technique, without compromising what the technique is trying to teach, we will show our head instructor and he may change how he teaches it (does not happen often but sometimes). This happens in both schools that I have gone to, and due to it I've seen the same technique performed by people visiting from different schools and seen almost entirely different techniques. That video makes me doubt that he has ever tried them against a resisting opponent, or even knows how to throw or disarm (look at 1:28) someone in a semi-effective manner. Sadly, despite him being the founder, I do not think he would get even close to black belt with the level of skill shown in the video at either school. I have no idea if the schools that I go to are different quality wise then most of SKK, which might explain why both broke off from their parent organization, but it is not representative of what I have seen. If this is representative of SKK in general, then I am no longer confused about the reputation it has beyond Villari.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Here's another description from another Shaolin Kempo School
"The art of Shaolin Kempo Karate has developed from numerous styles of the martial arts including Shaolin Temple Boxing, Jiu Jitsu,
Kung Fu, Kempo, different styles of Karate, as well as the secret art of the White Tiger (Chin Na). Each fighting system offers
something both unique and special, but each also has its weaknesses that make a fighter vulnerable."

I am not aware of any shaolin temple boxing or Chin Na in SKK. For Kung Fu, there are some higher level Kung Fu forms I have not yet learned, but for the most part what it takes from Kung Fu is looking at the five animals in (I believe) Hung Ga, and using those animals to help people understand what techniques will be most useful to them. This is a really useful addition to the art IMHO.
But as for the original description, I call baloney on that schools claims.

Sei Ping Kuen (Kyun) is the name of a Jow Ga Form. There are other kung fu systems that have a similar name. And each kung fu system can recognize each their own version. This is what it looks like when someone mixes Kung Fu and Karate Together. You end up with a system that doesn't do justice to either Karate or Kung Fu. I believe this particular video took stuff out of Jow Ga's Sei Ping Kyun form and the kung fu that is applied here is done completely wrong. The forms that he's doing has no real world application

So while you may think it's just a name. Sometimes the martial art is just as it says on the door.

Was this form incorporated into SKK, or are you just using it as an example? I don't see any reference in the video to SKK and don't recognize the form. I also couldn't find anything about it and kempo/kenpo in a cursory google search. No idea what it is supposed to look like in either system, so cant comment on it.

 

[hoshin1600]

so what is a style? for the sake of this conversation i want to give you my definition. i liken it to a style of music. you have jazz, rock, blues, country, techno, death metal, rap, gansta rap, and so on.
using that analogy i look at martial arts in the same way and ask myself , how does this art feel? the feeling between gansta rap and blues are very far apart but you can tell classic rock was born out of the blues. is Jimmy page a rock musician or a blues guitarist?
when i look at the various renditions of kenpo i get the same feeling from them all. its not the curriculum. its the feeling and mannerisms that are passed down. like how your father and mother did certain things that you have ingrained into your self totally without knowing. but your spouse is more than willing to point out , you sound just like your mother.
i see the same mannerisms from Ed Parker , nick cerio , fred villari, kajukenbo, karazenpo goshinjitsu,...whoever and whatever you want to call it, if it has roots to Hawaii, to me it feels the same. for years and years long before the internet, kenpo instructors of each art would bash the others and say " oh thats crap we are totally different" well to me.. no you were not any different. go to different kenpo schools then visit an okinawan school or a Kyokushinkai school and you will instantly know the difference between the feelings.
as frustrating and annoying as MT can be for me, im glad i found it and participated. i no longer will bash kenpo. what i say now is, that kenpo does not fit in with my martial art philosphy and how i practice.