Okinawian Kempo, Shaolin Kenpo, American Kenpo
- Thread starter phlaw
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In a nutshell... That would be correct
I agree to a point but if it wasn't for the addage of the Gracies etc and UFC I would never had heard of Jiu Jitsu. I think this is why some Schools "changed" their names from Kenpo Karate to Kenpo Jujitsu to take use of the new fad towards Jujitsu training.
If we take FMA (Filipino Martial Arts) they don't call it Pinoy Kung Fu or Pinoy Karate or Muay Pinoy (Like the Muay Thai) they call it Escrima, Doces Pares or Mano Mano etc. they don't need it and this STILL gets enough followers. OK you could say Dan Inosanto is one of the reasons that FMA has come to the forefront BUT Elvis Presley who was one of Master Ed Parker's Direct students was definately a more famous practitioner than Dan.
I just think its pointless to have the addage of the name and Kenpoists SHOULD be proud of calling it what it is and that is just "Kenpo"
Even Funakoshi Sensei (founder of Shotokan) used to call his system Okinawan kenpo prior to calling it Karate mainly because of the Kanji etc.
So Many reasons why it should be called just Kenpo, not enough reasons to keep the Karate/Jujitsu Tag, look at Kanjukenbo
Actually it is from the '40s when Judo and Jujutsu known far better than karate or kenpo. Mitose wrote a book in the '40s called "What is Self Defense (Kenpo Jiu-jitsu). There is also a fairly sound argument that Danzan-ryu jujutsu had a heavy influence on the kenpo of the time, so it would actually make sense.
Well, when I say I do Kali, nobody knows what the hell I am talking about, but I don't care because my livelihood isn't dependent on putting people on my training floor. But just so you know, some Filipino lineages (including Doce Pares) use the term "Combat Judo" with regard to portions of the empty hand vs. weapon techniques. Why? So that people knew what they were selling.
To be honest I don't care, kenpo by itself is such a mutt of a group of Japanese/Hawaiian/Chinese/lineages that it doesn't mean anything. How would you define it "stuff that got sort of organized in Hawaii?" Or by "kenpo" do you mean just Ed Parker lineage kenpo where he called his stuff "Kenpo jujitsu," "Kenpo Karate," "Chinese Kenpo," and "American Kenpo," over his lifetime?
I study Shaolin Kenpo and when anyone asks my instructor about the origin of Kenpo, he explains how it ultimately started in Hawaii with influences from both Japanese and Chinese martial arts. It is a mutt in the martial arts world, but there's nothing wrong with that in my opinion. If anything it makes it better and all the more interesting
And now that I've moved to Austin where Shaolin Kenpo from the Castro branch does not exist, looks like I'm going to be switching to American Kenpo going forward Going back and forth a bit between January - March, but after end of March I'm full time Austin which means full time training in American Kenpo and then at that point just practicing my Shaolin Kenpo on my own remotely.
Was supposed to test for Student Black Belt in Shaolin Kenpo this past December 2015, but I'm pregnant so they postponed it... if I can keep up my curriculum for end of next year they said I could fly back and test though...
American Kenpo though is quite different curriculum wise but at least fundamentally very similar.
Going back and forth a bit between January - March, but after end of March I'm full time Austin which means full time training in American Kenpo and then at that point just practicing my Shaolin Kenpo on my own remotely. Was supposed to test for Student Black Belt in Shaolin Kenpo this past December 2015, but I'm pregnant so they postponed it... if I can keep up my curriculum for end of next year they said I could fly back and test though...
American Kenpo though is quite different curriculum wise but at least fundamentally very similar.
Shima, don't you have any Kosho Ryu schools in Austin? I thought I saw one or two. I would study Kosho Ryu any day over the watered down arts that Ed Parker branded as his own. It's not what William Chow taught and definitely not what James MItose share with most of the U.S. There are other schools too. Just stay away from Parker. I was in Asia a few years back and had a chat with a blackbelt in Kempo. He told me that the only Kempo they even consider close to what they teach is Kosho Ryu. Since then, a few other styles of Kempo/Kenpo have popped up but Kosho Ryu is growing slowly but steadily. I think the Tracy's saw the severe flaw in the Parker system as he had deviated greatly from what he had been taught. If you can't find Kosho Ryu then go for a Tracy school.
I disagree. Kenpo is just one of those words that needs a title. Like recipe... What recipe? See?
Ironbear24
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I have never heard of shaolin kenpo and I really question the legitimacy of anything with shaolin in front of it. Especially if it is before of a more Japanese style.
Flying Crane
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I agree, it's inappropriate. There are at least a couple different Kenpo/kempo groups that use it. Some have a better reputation than others. But still use of the word in this way is inappropriate.
Warning: This is a lot of information that is all somewhat interelated, so it may not be the most cohesive explanation. My apologies.
I explained in another thread about a month ago the differences as someone who has practiced both Shaolin Kempo Karate(SKK for convenience) and a form of Okinawan Kenpo, but will re-explain it here/link a resource here. There is also Shaolin Kenpo, which is different than SKK, and I will go into both.
Brief answer before I begin: The addition of Shaolin in the front is there for a legitimate (according to the founders) reason.
SKK, Shaolin Kenpo and Ed Parker Kenpo are somewhat related but all different styles. SKK and Shaolin Kenpo only share a similar name with Japanese kenpo and are not directly related. Shaolin Kenpo is derived from Shaolinquan and American Kenpo, while SKK is derived from American kenpo with a focus on shaolin animal philosophy.
So first, read through this ISKA [Shaolin Kenpo FAQs], specifically FAQ 3 and 8. Additionally, Ralph Castro trained in Honolulu as a student of Chow, and was part of the same club as Ed Parker. Due to this the two styles are similar since they have a similar background.
The only correction to the SKK part that I would make is that Villari learned from Nick Cerio, who learned both from George Pesare, whom it mentions, and Ed Parker, whom I don't think it mentions. Nick Cerio adapted Ed Parker kenpo to include shotokan karate forms.
To go more into detail about SKK, since that is the one I know: SKK was formed by Fred Villari, who trained under Nick Cerio and other instructors, becoming a 5th degree in Kenpo. He also went to the Caribbean (I believe, it's not important and annoying to find so don't feel like fact checking the location), and while he was there trained with local martial artists. These martial artists were practitioners of a local form of karate and a form of Kung Fu-I am unsure which one. He taught them kenpo, and in return they taught him both various techniques of their styles and the philosophies from their styles. He then took all three and created his own system that uses adapted kenpo for its techniques (similar to Cerio), adapted karate for many of its forms (IIRC almost the same as Cerio), and adapted Kung fu (different than Cerio) for its higher level forms and philosophy. Specifically, SKK has a 'five animal' philosophy, where each technique captures the essence of one of the five animals. Practitioners figure out as they train what animal(s) philosophy they fit best with, and focus on developing those techniques the most. Because of this combination he titled the style Shaolin Kempo Karate, and it forever gets confused with Shaolin Kenpo, which is explained in the link above.
There's also a whole thing about people having issues with Villari's teaching method, his claims, etc. and those people breaking away from him (my school included) but continued with SKK in their own fashion, but that's in-style politics that would bore anyone.
If anyone has heard anything different than what I have stated, please state so. I have heard a lot of conflicting information about the origins, and from my own research, the above is the most accurate/most consistent info that I have heard. However it might be wrong.
Additionally, many people will claim all SKK are McDojos. I have been to 3 SKK schools (trained at 2 visited 1) of slightly different lineages, along with non SKK schools, and the training in all of them were as legitimate or more so than schools I've seen of other styles. I have not been to a Villari school, so I have no knowledge on whether or not those are legitimate or Mcdojos.
Additionally, many people will claim all SKK are McDojos. I have been to 3 SKK schools (trained at 2 visited 1) of slightly different lineages, along with non SKK schools, and the training in all of them were as legitimate or more so than schools I've seen of other styles. I have not been to a Villari school, so I have no knowledge on whether or not those are legitimate or Mcdojos.
You'll never hear me speak badly about someone in Martial Arts.....except Fred Villari. I know that offends some people, but I don't care. I've been in the arts too long to stay quiet about such a reprehensible person.
I knew Ed Parker, trained with him a bunch and he helped me a lot. I'm still friends with a group of his old time students to this day. I trained some with Nick Cerrio, too. My wife and I were friends with his second wife, Kelly, from South Africa. I trained with a few of Nick's black belts back in the day. Good men, all of them. George Pessare taught me how to fight. His old school on Branch Ave in Providence (early seventies) was like the movie Fight Club. I know that sounds like B.S, but it's not. I have never seen anything like it since. And don't really care to, to tell the truth. But it made us what we are today and for that I will always be thankful. George also introduced me to one of my instructors, Joe Lewis. I first trained with Joe right there at Georges.
Villari did make Black Belt under Nick. Upon reaching second Dan, he left to go on his own. At the time, he was working for the father of one of my brown belts, Jackie Connelly. I believe he was a draftsman, but could be wrong, I don't remember anymore. The day after making his second black - he gave his notice at work and told folks he was off to open karate schools and make millions of dollars. He promoted himself to tenth degree. His world headquarters during his business reign is about two miles from where I sit right now, typing this. And, man, he made some serious millions
Although I'm not a Kenpo student, I've trained in a lot of Kenpo schools. All we did was fight. I absolutely loved it. I probably have more Kenpo friends than you do. (because I'm OLD and have been around it longer -probably)
Villari had a lot of schools, a lot. And some of them had some good training.....but that's because he wasn't there much.
Anyway, sorry to be so long winded.
This is really interesting. I'd always heard that he studied away from Nick Cerio until he got his 5th degree before self promoting. Still dislike the self promotion, but a 5th to 10th in his own style was less bad than a 2nd to 10th in his own style. Both are something I dislike about the overall founder of SKK.
You almost definitely do. As for the schools I've gone to, we spend half the classes fighting (from the stories I've heard not as much or as intensely as they used to) and half of them working on self defense. It's a great combination of the two
Luckily more and more schools have gone away from Villari. It's a wonderful thing.
Not at all! It's really rare to hear from someone who directly trained with Ed Parker/George Pesare/Nick Cerio. I find the history of this lineage (not just villari but new england kenpo in general) really interesting, and also really tough to find accurate info on, so incredibly glad you responded.
Can't everyone trace back to Daruma? Even though I think it is hog-wash.
Ironbear24
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Can't everyone trace back to Daruma? Even though I think it is hog-wash.
I've seen some advertising for "Shoalin TaeKwonDo" like seriously. Throw shoalin in front of anything for that more dramatic appeal. Way to take advantage of the history the shaolin have with martial arts.
The whole story sounds fishy. Shaolin was a training compound, and all, but the idea that there were no martial arts before them is laughable.
hoshin1600
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Maybe Buka can verify this if true,
I studied in the SKK system as a young teen. If my memory is correct Villari started as United studios of self defense. When I first started Charles Mattera was in the organization then the two separated and Charlie kept that name and Villari opened his "studios of self defense"
There has been lots of organization hopping through the years, to the point where to me everything looks the same. I went to a Cerio instructor for a time and it was the exact same material.
In the 90s the entire board of directors left the Villari organization and started "masters of self defense"
While many do not like Villari here in central Massachusetts and beyond you would be hard pressed to find a kenpo school that didn't start as a Villari school.
I studied in the SKK system as a young teen. If my memory is correct Villari started as United studios of self defense. When I first started Charles Mattera was in the organization then the two separated and Charlie kept that name and Villari opened his "studios of self defense"
There has been lots of organization hopping through the years, to the point where to me everything looks the same. I went to a Cerio instructor for a time and it was the exact same material.
In the 90s the entire board of directors left the Villari organization and started "masters of self defense"
While many do not like Villari here in central Massachusetts and beyond you would be hard pressed to find a kenpo school that didn't start as a Villari school.
Yes United Studios of Self Defense. Right here in Dedham MA. I'm not sure when and how the splits took place. I remember the name changes but not who and where.
Also, I have no grudge or bad feelings about anyone who trained under him. One of my first instructors was just as bad as he was, just not as successful business wise.
My information about this is likely to have a bias, but from what I know Mattera believed Villari had to big of an ego and was taking money he didnt deserve, and Villari believed that Mattera should show him more respect as his instructor (and probably should give him more money). That blew up into multiple fights leading to the split you're talking about.
I just dug into the back of my closet where old boxes go to die. Found something I think you Kempo guys will get a kick out of. I'll bring it to work and see if I can get it scanned.
