OK you can't say sparring is detrimental if you are pro kata. not for the sake of realism.

[Daniel Sullivan]

I'm quoting Tony because he sums it up pretty well, and read Drop Bears premise the same way that I did.

I don't believe this thread was intended as a diss on kata in any way.

It's fine to practice kata for whatever benefits you feel it brings for self-defense.

It's fine to practice sparring for whatever benefits you feel it brings for self-defense.

It's fine to prefer kata to sparring because you value the specific benefits of the one over the other. (I might disagree with you, but there's nothing logically inconsistent about your position.)

It's seemingly contradictory to say "sparring is not good for self-defense training because it lacks elements A, B, C, D & E, but kata is just fine for self-defense training even though it lacks elements A, B, C, D & E." This is the exact claim ... which drop bear is responding to.

So having said that using another man's words (thank you Tony), I think that there is a major point that is being missed and/or overlooked.

Solo kata are not designed to do the same thing that sparring does, so to compare them pointless.

A martial arts style is a language. It contains structure, grammatical rules, and vocabulary. Comparing kata to sparring is like comparing grammar & vocabulary to creative writing, oratory, debate, and dialogue; they don't do the same thing, thus neither is superior to the other.

Kata is a method of teaching the grammar & vocabulary of a style language that you are learning/have learned. Even partnered kata. Even if you aren't pulling bunkai from the kata (KKW TKD does not).

So, Kata is a means of transmission from teacher to student the principles and techniques of the art.

Bunkai, one step sparring, waza/gisul, ukemi/nak beop/rolling & falling, and any other exercise that is done to expand on the principles and techniques of the art, are just that; exercises to broaden and deepen your understanding of the principles and techniques of the art. Just like learning a language, numerous exercises are used to train in specific things and to help you expand your knowledge and usage of those things.

If kata is the structure, principles and techniques of the art, and bunkai/exercises based on the content of the kata is the grammar & vocabulary and writing exercises of the style language, then sparring is debate and dialogue with others in the style language that you have learned.

Debate and dialogue are free flowing rather than pre-arranged by the dictates of the art and the teaching preferences of the instructor, and require a partner, be it an audience or an individual. Now, you're taking the principles and techniques of the language and applying them to a particular end.

Sparring in the studio is dialogue. Competitive sparring under a specific rule set is debate. Self defense is things like haggling with a salesman, arguing with another person outside of a formal debate setting, arbitrating disputes between two people, or defending one's self against charges.

But in order to debate, dialogue, or argue in a language, you need to know how to write and speak in that language. And you prepare for debate differently than you prepare to defend yourself against charges, both of which are different from dialogue, even though the skills overlap and the linguistic principles underlying each are the same.

And what where does making your own kata and forms competition fit into my linguistic analogy? Performing kata competitively is oratory. Making your own kata is creative writing. Making your own kata and performing it competitively is speech writing and oratory.

That is my take on the whole topic.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

OK your question is a really weird one so I decided to let you off the hook with it. But if you want an explanation of why your question is silly. You have fabricated two outcomes based on your own bias expecting me to have to choose one. I don't really have to choose either or answer your question at all.

I've posted both of your comments so you really can't claim they're fabricated...you stated them. No, you don't have to answer the question as it's pretty obvious that you're dishonest in what you've stated. Too be blunt, you lied twice. That speaks to your character.

As for your grammar, it needs to be improved. The truth sometimes stings.

In regards to the fallacy of your OP, I've already stated your error.

Now, since I detest people that lie, I'll step out of the thread now as your not worth the back and forth.

Have a nice day.

 

[drop bear]

I've posted both of your comments so you really can't claim they're fabricated...you stated them. No, you don't have to answer the question as it's pretty obvious that you're dishonest in what you've stated. Too be blunt, you lied twice. That speaks to your character.

As for your grammar, it needs to be improved. The truth sometimes stings.

In regards to the fallacy of your OP, I've already stated your error.

Now, since I detest people that lie, I'll step out of the thread now as your not worth the back and forth.

Have a nice day.

OK see you.bye!

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I've posted both of your comments so you really can't claim they're fabricated...you stated them. No, you don't have to answer the question as it's pretty obvious that you're dishonest in what you've stated. Too be blunt, you lied twice. That speaks to your character.
...
Now, since I detest people that lie, I'll step out of the thread now as your not worth the back and forth.

I believe what we have here is a failure to communicate. I've read every word both you and drop bear have posted in this thread and the other one (repeatedly in some cases). I do not see anywhere that he has lied. I would suggest that if you are reading what he says as a lie, then you may be misinterpreting his words. Perhaps re-reading with an eye towards understanding the other person's point rather than proving them wrong might be helpful.

In regards to the fallacy of your OP, I've already stated your error.

Maybe you've stated his error, but I was curious regarding the same point and I'm not understanding your explanation of said error. I'm told that I'm reasonably good at figuring out what people are saying, so if I'm not getting it then perhaps some other folks are missing it as well. Would you mind looking at my previous post just above and helping me to get your point? In my second quote I laid out a possible idea of what you might be getting at, but you would need to fill in the details for me.

 

[drop bear]

I'm quoting Tony because he sums it up pretty well, and read Drop Bears premise the same way that I did.


So having said that using another man's words (thank you Tony), I think that there is a major point that is being missed and/or overlooked.

Solo kata are not designed to do the same thing that sparring does, so to compare them pointless.

A martial arts style is a language. It contains structure, grammatical rules, and vocabulary. Comparing kata to sparring is like comparing grammar & vocabulary to creative writing, oratory, debate, and dialogue; they don't do the same thing, thus neither is superior to the other.

Kata is a method of teaching the grammar & vocabulary of a style language that you are learning/have learned. Even partnered kata. Even if you aren't pulling bunkai from the kata (KKW TKD does not).

So, Kata is a means of transmission from teacher to student the principles and techniques of the art.

Bunkai, one step sparring, waza/gisul, ukemi/nak beop/rolling & falling, and any other exercise that is done to expand on the principles and techniques of the art, are just that; exercises to broaden and deepen your understanding of the principles and techniques of the art. Just like learning a language, numerous exercises are used to train in specific things and to help you expand your knowledge and usage of those things.

If kata is the structure, principles and techniques of the art, and bunkai/exercises based on the content of the kata is the grammar & vocabulary and writing exercises of the style language, then sparring is debate and dialogue with others in the style language that you have learned.

Debate and dialogue are free flowing rather than pre-arranged by the dictates of the art and the teaching preferences of the instructor, and require a partner, be it an audience or an individual. Now, you're taking the principles and techniques of the language and applying them to a particular end.

Sparring in the studio is dialogue. Competitive sparring under a specific rule set is debate. Self defense is things like haggling with a salesman, arguing with another person outside of a formal debate setting, arbitrating disputes between two people, or defending one's self against charges.

But in order to debate, dialogue, or argue in a language, you need to know how to write and speak in that language. And you prepare for debate differently than you prepare to defend yourself against charges, both of which are different from dialogue, even though the skills overlap and the linguistic principles underlying each are the same.

And what where does making your own kata and forms competition fit into my linguistic analogy? Performing kata competitively is oratory. Making your own kata is creative writing. Making your own kata and performing it competitively is speech writing and oratory.

That is my take on the whole topic.

Yeah you need a range of different training devices and different training methods each one teaches you more about the other.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Yeah you need a range of different training devices and different training methods each one teaches you more about the other.

And like a language, there is more than one way of teaching the principles and techniques of an art; not all martial arts use "kata" as in arts like karate, but have other ways of transmitting the information.

 

[drop bear]

And like a language, there is more than one way of teaching the principles and techniques of an art; not all martial arts use "kata" as in arts like karate, but have other ways of transmitting the information.

Yeah we have video files of as much of our stuff as we can. Because collating a system is hard. You loose bits of it all the time. I can see why kata was used.

I am not against the concept of kata other than personal preference. And that does not really make an argument.

The other side of this as an overflow from the op. I am not against combat scenarios. But not instead of sparring. They teach two different things.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Yeah we have video files of as much of our stuff as we can. Because collating a system is hard. You loose bits of it all the time. I can see why kata was used.

Definitely. Some kata are also arrange in to patterns of Chinese characters and in the case of KKW TKD, the palgwe (which is where the names of the Palgwe and Taegeuk pumsae come from) so as to communicate non technical elements of the art.

I am not against the concept of kata other than personal preference. And that does not really make an argument.

The only real dislike that I have of kata is not kata itself, but its use as filler in some schools.

The other side of this as an overflow from the op. I am not against combat scenarios. But not instead of sparring. They teach two different things.

No argument there.

 

[Tez3]

Definitely. Some kata are also arrange in to patterns of Chinese characters and in the case of KKW TKD, the palgwe (which is where the names of the Palgwe and Taegeuk pumsae come from) so as to communicate non technical elements of the art.



The only real dislike that I have of kata is not kata itself, but its use as filler in some schools.



No argument there.

It's this use I think that sets so many people against it, they see it as useless which of course it is if you are just doing it to perform or without any explanation of Bunkai, Being told to do it because 'we've always done it' isn't good enough, in fact that expression is probably one of the most annoying phrase in the English language because it's used in so many situations to avoid changing things.

 

[K-man]

We are missing a premis that is part of my OP.

In a fight you will revert to your training due to stress. The example made was that cop. Who trained a gun disarm and handed back the gun. Then disarmed a guy on the street gave the guy the gun back and was shot.

This shows that if you train in a method that is unrealistic like in a gym or dojo you will be hampered by the change in environment tactics and so on and that will count against you in a real confrontation.

This is why sparring does not prepare you for the street and is actually detremental. That you have to train in the environment you will fight and in the manner you will fight.

Kata on the other hand is different because we like it better?

As you can see, kata means different things to different people. People use kata in whatever way it meets their needs. In some cases it may not even have anything to do with fighting but that is for another thread.

I like Daniel's reply. I don't necessarily agree with all he wrote in terms of his understanding and my understanding but he is not wrong from where I sit. We are both right in our own understanding.

I think from years of discussion on this board Tez is the only one that actually trains similarly to me, thanks to Iain Abernethy's teaching.

We had a very small class last night so we played around with some concepts we are discussing. That's the advantage when you have your own school. My trading partner for this exercise was a green belt with several years experience. First up I asked him to attack with a left punch. (He is left handed) My preferred defence to that attack, whether it be jab or straight is straight out of kata bunkai and I have trained it many times. It works on both sides, it's simple and it's effective. Two strikes, partner on the ground both times, like clockwork. (These were fast punches btw.)

Next, I asked my partner to just attack me with punching as he would in a fight and I would defend using the same moves out of the kata. I got punched out of existence. There was absolutely no way I could use the kata. Worse still, by trying to use the kata, I was getting hit, something that doesn't normally happen with random attacks. So what went wrong? Why wasn't my bunkai working?

Finally, I asked my parter to attack again with the random punching. Fraction of a second later he was on the ground and I had actually used the very technique I was trying to use previously. Yet previously it wasn't working. Why? What had changed so dramatically in the short time between the attacks?

Obviously in the first scenario I was waiting for his attack. At the first sign of movement I was off the line and in his face. Simple, done it thousands of times. Second scenario. It didn't even look like working. Explanation, I was looking for the opportunity to enter with the kata technique fixated on doing the kata bunkai. Two things failed me. Because I was looking for a specific punch I was pretty much watching his hands and waiting for the right moment to do my magic. The moment never arrived. I was being reactive rather than proactive and he had no difficulty hitting me.

In the final scenario I had no idea what I was going to do. When the attack came, I parried instinctively, instinctively moved off the line, instinctively punched him and stepped though taking him to the ground. Pretty much over in less than a second. It was the exact bunkai I had tried to do earlier but this time I hadn't tried to do it. I fought as I had trained.

I have a saying. "Learn the technique, train the technique, forget the technique, then use the technique." The technique must become your instinctive response.
:asian:

 

[Hanzou]

In free sparring against someone of comparable skill and experience and going flat out you get to test your attack and defense against resistance under significant pressure, so again no fundamental difference other than the level of contact (it is generally a lot safer to get choked out and submitted than it is to get punched in the head and kicked in the groin repeatedly).



The only thing that video shows is that there is a huge difference between a beginner who is self taught and a high level practitioner of an art. That is how it should be. I can guarantee you if a beginner who was self taught in their back yard walked in off the street and I sparred with them flat out they wouldn't stand a chance either.

There have been instances of people coming off the street and challenging TKD and Karate school black belts.

Those situations didn't end well for the Karate and TKD black belts involved.

 

[K-man]

There have been instances of people coming off the street and challenging TKD and Karate school black belts.

Those situations didn't end well for the Karate and TKD black belts involved.

True! We should all have learned BJJ!

 

[Hanzou]

True! We should all have learned BJJ!

It wouldn't hurt.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

There have been instances of people coming off the street and challenging TKD and Karate school black belts.

Those situations didn't end well for the Karate and TKD black belts involved.

Okay, Hanzou, I'm not sure where you're going with this. I understand your crusades in favor of live sparring and against crappy examples of anti-grappling because I pretty much agree with them even if I don't insist on raising the subjects at every opportunity. This post just sounds like a generic evidence-free bash against karate & TKD.

Yes, there have been situations where karate & TKD black belts have come off poorly against challengers off the street. There are other situations where the challengers have come off poorly. There are other situations where both parties have had a good time and learned from each other.

There are some karate & TKD black belts who couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag. There are other karate & TKD black belts who could easily kick both your butt and mine and the butts of many people much tougher than either of us. There are a host of factors leading to the difference between those groups. Did you have some point concerning those factors relevant to the current discussion?

 

[RTKDCMB]

It wouldn't hurt.

If it doesn't hurt, you're doing it wrong.

 

[RTKDCMB]

There have been instances of people coming off the street and challenging TKD and Karate school black belts.

Those situations didn't end well for the Karate and TKD black belts involved.

As far as I know it has never happened in any of our schools.

 

[K-man]

As far as I know it has never happened in any of our schools.

I've never heard of it happening here.

Hang about! I did see something like that in Karate Kid?

And of course, the Boztepe/Cheung one became famous or infamous, but that wasn't Karate or TKD.
:asian:

 

[Hanzou]

Okay, Hanzou, I'm not sure where you're going with this. I understand your crusades in favor of live sparring and against crappy examples of anti-grappling because I pretty much agree with them even if I don't insist on raising the subjects at every opportunity. This post just sounds like a generic evidence-free bash against karate & TKD.

Yes, there have been situations where karate & TKD black belts have come off poorly against challengers off the street. There are other situations where the challengers have come off poorly. There are other situations where both parties have had a good time and learned from each other.

There are some karate & TKD black belts who couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag. There are other karate & TKD black belts who could easily kick both your butt and mine and the butts of many people much tougher than either of us. There are a host of factors leading to the difference between those groups. Did you have some point concerning those factors relevant to the current discussion?

Not really. I was just relaying a few personal experiences of my time in TKD and Karate.

I've never heard of it happening here.

Hang about! I did see something like that in Karate Kid?

And of course, the Boztepe/Cheung one became famous or infamous, but that wasn't Karate or TKD.
:asian:

Boztepe/Cheung was one of the best grappling matches I've seen.

 

[Cirdan]

There have been instances of people coming off the street and challenging TKD and Karate school black belts.

Those situations didn't end well for the Karate and TKD black belts involved.

Video or it did not happen

 

[Dirty Dog]

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Mark A Cochran
Dirty Dog
MT Senior Moderator