Non martial artists teaching children to punch and karate 'chop'

[Gerry Seymour]

Properly? No. Not even really with help. But improperly, we were hitting balls with bats, tennis rackets and you name it, at 7 or 8 without any coaching. We were playing football in the park, and doing all sorts of things, just by having seen it on tv. I think you're making more of this than exists.

You're adding the qualifier of "competently" to this. Competence, at age 6, is a ridiculous standard, coaching or not.

Once again, I see the original point, and sure. I get it. Some qualified coaching would be great. But without coaching, we aren't going to see kids wirithing on the ground, clutching their poor elbows, moaning and unable to use their arms. This is, at worst, harmless goofing around.

I'm not adding the qualifier. I'm going from what he wrote about kids being able to do things properly without input from adults, and adults basically messing things up.

At that age, I was probably swinging baseball bats and tennis rackets. My dad gave me some coaching on both, so I'd be able to do them at least somewhat correctly. That's about all that's needed when a kid is just playing around with them like that. If they're going to do something for 30-60 minutes straight, and the point is to introduce them to an activity, they should be given some marginally competent input. That is for both safety reasons (if there's any safety concern, and I think there is some reason behind that concern with repetitive punching for that long) and so they are actually being introduced to the activity, and not something vaguely related to it (see my earlier post about gymnastics).

 

[jobo]

I'm not adding the qualifier. I'm going from what he wrote about kids being able to do things properly without input from adults, and adults basically messing things up.

At that age, I was probably swinging baseball bats and tennis rackets. My dad gave me some coaching on both, so I'd be able to do them at least somewhat correctly. That's about all that's needed when a kid is just playing around with them like that. If they're going to do something for 30-60 minutes straight, and the point is to introduce them to an activity, they should be given some marginally competent input. That is for both safety reasons (if there's any safety concern, and I think there is some reason behind that concern with repetitive punching for that long) and so they are actually being introduced to the activity, and not something vaguely related to it (see my earlier post about gymnastics).

if your view was true, then kids with non involved parents, that didn't coach them or sign them up to lessons would never be any good at anything, but they are, they teach themselves by Esperance and watching other kids.

now if you really want your kid to play tennis at a professional level there is little doubt that having them coached at aged 4 will give them an advantage, but that's not the point in discussion here.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

if your view was true, then kids with non involved parents, that didn't coach them or sign them up to lessons would never be any good at anything, but they are, they teach themselves by Esperance and watching other kids.

now if you really want your kid to play tennis at a professional level there is little doubt that having them coached at aged 4 will give them an advantage, but that's not the point in discussion here.

Over-generalization and strawman argument.

 

[Tez3]

At that age, I was probably swinging baseball bats and tennis rackets.

We know though from children themselves that, sadly, kids playing on their own or with other kids outside knocking a ball around etc is fast becoming a thing of the past. We all grew up being able to find out these things but the world has changed and kids now don't even go out to play in most places so telling me that kids will do these things on their own isn't true anymore. I don't like it anymore than anyone else but we have to take what we've got and work with it. c
Children also don't do sports much at primary school level ( 5-11 in the UK) there's no teaches running cricket, football, netball etc after school anymore. PE lessons in primary schools is just about non existent and PE teachers in secondary schools ( 11-16) are the first to be given the chop with the budget cuts or a teacher in another discipline is asked to stand in.
We owe it to our children, if we can't go back to when they could play out, be adventurous on their own, to at least inspire them to look for sports to do. My worry as I said is that this activity I've been told is to introduce them to karate, to give them a 'basic skill' and get them to look at a sport they don't know. All of this would be fine if the ones introducing them didn't know anything themselves and will pass on wrong information and techniques. if you are just telling the girls to punch it's one thing, teaching them to punch when you don't know yourself is another thing because if they are going to punch and 'chop' as they call it, it's passing on bad habits which do have the potential to cause harm to young wrists and elbows ( as I have actually seen happen to adults in three quarters of an hour boxercise classes) as ell as saying it's 'self defence' training which is a worry.

 

[jobo]

We know though from children themselves that, sadly, kids playing on their own or with other kids outside knocking a ball around etc is fast becoming a thing of the past. We all grew up being able to find out these things but the world has changed and kids now don't even go out to play in most places so telling me that kids will do these things on their own isn't true anymore. I don't like it anymore than anyone else but we have to take what we've got and work with it. c
Children also don't do sports much at primary school level ( 5-11 in the UK) there's no teaches running cricket, football, netball etc after school anymore. PE lessons in primary schools is just about non existent and PE teachers in secondary schools ( 11-16) are the first to be given the chop with the budget cuts or a teacher in another discipline is asked to stand in.
We owe it to our children, if we can't go back to when they could play out, be adventurous on their own, to at least inspire them to look for sports to do. My worry as I said is that this activity I've been told is to introduce them to karate, to give them a 'basic skill' and get them to look at a sport they don't know. All of this would be fine if the ones introducing them didn't know anything themselves and will pass on wrong information and techniques. if you are just telling the girls to punch it's one thing, teaching them to punch when you don't know yourself is another thing because if they are going to punch and 'chop' as they call it, it's passing on bad habits which do have the potential to cause harm to young wrists and elbows ( as I have actually seen happen to adults in three quarters of an hour boxercise classes) as ell as saying it's 'self defence' training which is a worry.

I don't know where you live,but you can't move for kids out playing with out adult supervision round here.

you back to claiming it is dangerous, balloon tennis is dangerous???? You are rather making my point that risk adverse adults are,spoiling the,development of kids

 

[jobo]

Over-generalization and strawman argument.

well either you accept that children are capable of teaching themselves or you stick to your point that adults are a requirement in there physical development there isn't a halfway house

 

[Gerry Seymour]

well either you accept that children are capable of teaching themselves or you stick to your point that adults are a requirement in there physical development there isn't a halfway house

False dilemma and strawman argument.

 

[jobo]

False dilemma and strawman argument.

or you've run out of actual points to refute my arguments.

let's try an easy one, is your,claim still that children can't develop motor skills, such as hitting a ball with a bat, with out adult instruction ?

 

[Tez3]

I don't know where you live,but you can't move for kids out playing with out adult supervision round here.

you back to claiming it is dangerous, balloon tennis is dangerous???? You are rather making my point that risk adverse adults are,spoiling the,development of kids

Oh dear. I wish you'd understand that 'dangerous' doesn't mean the same thing as 'injurious'. It isn't dangerous to punch incorrectly, it can be injurious to young wrists and elbows ( as it actually can be to adults) to punch vigorously when the technique is incorrect.

I'm also not talking about balloon tennis, that's a game that is suggested after the girls punch away into air. You are deliberately misquoting and misunderstanding to troll.

 

[jobo]

Oh dear. I wish you'd understand that 'dangerous' doesn't mean the same thing as 'injurious'. It isn't dangerous to punch incorrectly, it can be injurious to young wrists and elbows ( as it actually can be to adults) to punch vigorously when the technique is incorrect.

I'm also not talking about balloon tennis, that's a game that is suggested after the girls punch away into air. You are deliberately misquoting and misunderstanding to troll.

, you were previously suggesting that balloon tennis could cause long term joint problems to wrists, Elbows and shoulders, if that were true it would indeed be classified as dangerous, just like catching javelins would be both injurious and dangerous

 

[Tez3]

, you were previously suggesting that balloon tennis could cause long term joint problems to wrists, Elbows and shoulders, if that were true it would indeed be classified as dangerous, just like catching javelins would be both injurious and dangerous

Nope, still not 'dangerous', didn't say long term either, I actually said sore wrists which you thought meant sore muscles. We aren't playing word games here, you don't get to make up what other people mean when they post. I also didn't say that playing balloon ( do you have globophilia as you seem quite obsessed with the balloon game?) tennis would do it, I said that the punching into air is not something people should do without being told to bend their elbows slightly, negates the risk, and that the girls should be taught how to punch properly ie not bent or floppy wrists which also negate the risk of wrist problems ( sore wrists to you). Also not throwing vigorous punches into air will negate shoulder problems. See how simple that is, the use of an instructor who can show them how to do something properly stops it being a negative activity and turns it into a positive one, proper job.
After all if a job is worth doing it's worth doing properly.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

or you've run out of actual points to refute my arguments.

let's try an easy one, is your,claim still that children can't develop motor skills, such as hitting a ball with a bat, with out adult instruction ?

No.

 

[jobo]

Nope, still not 'dangerous', didn't say long term either, I actually said sore wrists which you thought meant sore muscles. We aren't playing word games here, you don't get to make up what other people mean when they post. I also didn't say that playing balloon ( do you have globophilia as you seem quite obsessed with the balloon game?) tennis would do it, I said that the punching into air is not something people should do without being told to bend their elbows slightly, negates the risk, and that the girls should be taught how to punch properly ie not bent or floppy wrists which also negate the risk of wrist problems ( sore wrists to you). Also not throwing vigorous punches into air will negate shoulder problems. See how simple that is, the use of an instructor who can show them how to do something properly stops it being a negative activity and turns it into a positive one, proper job.
After all if a job is worth doing it's worth doing properly.

but they are only punching balloons

 

[jobo]

No.

well that's an improvement at least you have dropped that silly claim,

 

[Tez3]

you can't move for kids out playing with out adult supervision round here.

And if I'd said kids were playing out everywhere you'd have said 'I don't know where you live but there's no children playing out round here'. Baiting people on here isn't attractive, clever or funny... though other people's answers to it are clever and witty.

 

[Tez3]

but they are only punching balloons

NO, they aren't, missed the point again, they are punching into air, the balloon game is a suggestion to do after the air punching, not the activity. really, how many times do you have to be told?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

well that's an improvement at least you have dropped that silly claim,

You might note that I just said that wasn't my claim. It was your strawman.

 

[jobo]

And if I'd said kids were playing out everywhere you'd have said 'I don't know where you live but there's no children playing out round here'. Baiting people on here isn't attractive, clever or funny... though other people's answers to it are clever and witty.

i, there are indeed hoards of unsupervised children running riot round here , I've passed 60 or so just going to the Chinese for my tea

 

[jobo]

NO, they aren't, missed the point again, they are punching into air, the balloon game is a suggestion to do after the air punching, not the activity. really, how many times do you have to be told?

it is the activerty,the air punching is only the warm up to the main activity which is balloon tennis,

 

[Tez3]

it is the activerty,the air punching is only the warm up to the main activity which is balloon tennis,

Nope. Can't you read. It says 'discover what karate is then play a game'. I have heard from other leaders who have already done the activity that what they are doing is karate 'lessons' ie lining up bowing and doing air punching and 'chops'. Now you can dispute that but you'd be a fool to because I have the facts not you. Do not try to tell me what other Guiding leaders are doing .

i, there are indeed hoards of unsupervised children running riot round here , I've passed 60 or so just going to the Chinese for my tea

You missed the point again didn't you. I am saying you are arguing for the sake of it.