krav maga video on joint manipulations; im not a fan

[Headhunter]

Showed this to my Krav instructor and this was his answer "that's bull **** not real Krav Maga. That is dangerous and dumb"

 

[Gerry Seymour]

not sankyyo wrist is other way lol

but if you mean going for the pressure point then yes but that is getting a wee bit advanced and if ya miss it ya umm well screwed ...me if the arm can't be "persuaded to bend" lol then forget nikkyo and go for hiji waza (hopefully then the arm will bend ok maybe the wrong way lol)

You're right. Now I can't remember where I've seen it in Aikido. The locking movement is similar to the takedown from sankyo (extending while "pulling"), which is probably why my brain supplied that name. See? I told you I was bad at those names.

 

[now disabled]

You're right. Now I can't remember where I've seen it in Aikido. The locking movement is similar to the takedown from sankyo (extending while "pulling"), which is probably why my brain supplied that name. See? I told you I was bad at those names.

hmmm might be gokkyo but that more like Ikkyo just the initial control on the wrist is diff it might be yonkyyo but that is again pressure point on the radial nerve and rokkyo is the elbow and a straight takedown (that one you might not have seen as it not taught as much there by folks think there are only 5 where as there are actually 6 techs lol

 

[Gerry Seymour]

hmmm might be gokkyo but that more like Ikkyo just the initial control on the wrist is diff it might be yonkyyo but that is again pressure point on the radial nerve and rokkyo is the elbow and a straight takedown (that one you might not have seen as it not taught as much there by folks think there are only 5 where as there are actually 6 techs lol

And it's possible I saw one of those and misrecognized it as the wrist bind I'm talking about. I'll poke around and see if I can find a video of the Aikido technique I vaguely remember seeing, and you can tell me if I'm seeing it right.

 

[now disabled]

And it's possible I saw one of those and misrecognized it as the wrist bind I'm talking about. I'll poke around and see if I can find a video of the Aikido technique I vaguely remember seeing, and you can tell me if I'm seeing it right.

I shall try

 

[oftheherd1]

i watched this video to see how krav uses joint manipulations.

...
next he says;
"we want to remember that when we deal with that material in the art, we apply manipulation to the wrist for two purposes. one is a defensive purpose, and we have to keep in mind that the art to some degree, was designed for the law enforcement community as well. therefore you cant just hit everybody and sometimes its easier to solve the problem with wrist manipulations.

he continues to say that he also uses it for take downs. at this point in the video he hasnt demonstrated anything and im already disappointed.

for one, the part i put in italic is screaming apology because he doesnt believe it works. the words he uses is a direct apology and justification because he knows people are going to watch the video and say " why not just punch the dude, it would be more effective" he feels it doesnt work because he doesnt know how , why and when to apply it. so he justifies using the manipulation saying its for law enforcement because they are not allowed to punch.

when he does the technique he is grasping only the 4 fingers at the third joint of the green belts hand and not grasping the thumb as well. i believe that when you do this the receiver of the joint lock has the equal ability to grasp your thumb as a counter move. so when i grab the hand i also grab the thumb as well.
i hope i explained that well enough. for you guys that use this technique do you grasp the thumb or just the fingers?

next he gives examples of how this manipulation can be applied " in many many ways"
this is where i cringe and yell at the computer screen.
so your a Krav self defense guru and your going to show the same old lame wrist and lapel grab as an attack??? this is a perfect example of why people think this stuff doesnt work. these attacks are lame and unrealistic. everybody and their brother who knew someone who had a cousin who did karate did these exact same wrist grabs and defense. as martial artists we all know this is a static non realistic attack why is this still being taught?

... blahh

I am certainly not going to try and defend the video nor the technique he displayed. But I do have an issue or two.

First, I don't understand how you say the opponent could grab his thumb. His arm is not positioned to do so. I was taught to place the thumb on the back of the hand on the pressure point there; less to no resistance .Also of course as you noted, he isn't grasping the opponent's hand correctly, or at least not as I was taught. Granted the opponent is being very compliant. But the twist to the joints does prevent the opponent grabbing the attacker's thumb. That is counting the person having having his wrist and arm twisted as the opponent. I also take issue with the attacker/trainer not allowing a grab to defend against. How can I evaluate the technique if I don't know just what it is intended to defend against; that is the type and location of the grab.

As to strikes, if you look at how the body must react to the (proper) application of the technique, it twists the opposite shoulder away. You cannot strike, or if you do, it will probably not reach anything, and even is so, will have next to no power. That is what good grappling defenses hope to do; not only dislocate joints, but put an attacker where he can't do you any harm.

As to the bolded and underlined - if you are an experienced street fighter, fighting often and fiercely, you may never have been attacked by having your arm or wrist grabbed. But that aside IMHO certainly a student will learn and polish techniques doing that which will be useful in many later techniques. Muscle memory will be developed so that when an opponent can and is grabbed in a certain way, it is just natural to do certain things. At least it was for me.

When people don't know that and other things about good grappling, yes, they do think a lot of grappling doesn't work.

 

[skribs]

when he does the technique he is grasping only the 4 fingers at the third joint of the green belts hand and not grasping the thumb as well. i believe that when you do this the receiver of the joint lock has the equal ability to grasp your thumb as a counter move. so when i grab the hand i also grab the thumb as well.
i hope i explained that well enough. for you guys that use this technique do you grasp the thumb or just the fingers?

My Hapkido Master usually grabs the fingers on his wristlocks. It gives a much better grip on the fingers, and I feel that the thumb being left out makes the wrist a lot less flexible (which makes it easier to get pain compliance). Leaving my thumb out doesn't really seem to change what I can or cannot do from that position.

If the thumb gets caught there, then it gets caught there, but we don't go out of the way to get the thumb.

 

[wab25]

Leaving my thumb out doesn't really seem to change what I can or cannot do from that position.

If uke, has his thumb free, there is a counter to this lock. Uke would counter, by trapping tori's thumb, with his own thumb, and applying a thumb lock. It does not change what tori can or cannot do. But, there is a counter that uke can use, if tori does not catch the thumb also.

Can you leave the thumb out, and apply the lock? Yes. But, you have to get your lock before uke, catches your thumb with his. Its a race. By, catching uke's thumb as well, you take away that counter.

However, in the video, not catching uke's thumb is the least wrong thing he does, in this technique. I would ask for your money back, from this guy...

 

[skribs]

If uke, has his thumb free, there is a counter to this lock. Uke would counter, by trapping tori's thumb, with his own thumb, and applying a thumb lock. It does not change what tori can or cannot do. But, there is a counter that uke can use, if tori does not catch the thumb also.

Can you leave the thumb out, and apply the lock? Yes. But, you have to get your lock before uke, catches your thumb with his. Its a race. By, catching uke's thumb as well, you take away that counter.

However, in the video, not catching uke's thumb is the least wrong thing he does, in this technique. I would ask for your money back, from this guy...

First off, I don't train in a Japanese art, so I don't know what "uke" means.

I didn't get to see the video because of problems streaming Youtube where I'm at. I was responding to the comment about fingers vs. fingers+thumb. And in general, I find it more painful when it's just the fingers being grabbed.

 

[wab25]

First off, I don't train in a Japanese art, so I don't know what "uke" means.

Tori is the one doing the technique... applying the lock in this case. Uke is the one receiving the technique... the lock is being applied to.

I was responding to the comment about fingers vs. fingers+thumb. And in general, I find it more painful when it's just the fingers being grabbed.

That may be. But the amount of pain you feel with the thumb in or out, does not take away the fact, that there is a counter available, when uke (the one the lock is being applied to) has his thumb free. When uke has his thumb grabbed as well, this particular counter is no longer available, no matter how much pain there is.

 

[skribs]

Tori is the one doing the technique... applying the lock in this case. Uke is the one receiving the technique... the lock is being applied to.

That may be. But the amount of pain you feel with the thumb in or out, does not take away the fact, that there is a counter available, when uke (the one the lock is being applied to) has his thumb free. When uke has his thumb grabbed as well, this particular counter is no longer available, no matter how much pain there is.

It opens up other counters then, because your wrist is now more flexible and you have more room to move.

It prevents escapes because you have a better grip.

So yes, it opens up a counter. But it also makes the technique more effective and prevents other escapes and counters.

 

[wab25]

It opens up other counters then, because your wrist is now more flexible and you have more room to move.

This has not been my experience. Gripping the thumb properly, takes more "slack" out of the arm, causing the lock to be tighter and the pain to come quicker.

Catching the thumb properly, should push it across the other fingers of the hand, tightening all the tendons attached to the thumb. Without the thumb caught, you are tightening the tendons, ligaments and muscles for the wrist and fingers. You can get a good tight lock that way, that causes a lot of pain. By adding the thumb, properly, it tightens the tendons, ligaments and muscles associated with the thumb as well, making the lock tighter... similar to how adding extra rotations does. If catching your thumb does not make it tighter on you, then the person catching your thumb is doing it wrong.

Yes, there are other counters available, when you to catch the thumb. All techniques have counters. There does not exist a technique without counters. (all that I know of have multiple counters)

 

[hoshin1600]

First off, I don't train in a Japanese art, so I don't know what "uke" means.

I didn't get to see the video because of problems streaming Youtube where I'm at. I was responding to the comment about fingers vs. fingers+thumb. And in general, I find it more painful when it's just the fingers being grabbed.

there are some controls that utilize the fingers but in this particular control i find my hand is not in the correct spot without the control of the guys thumb, having the thumb also makes transitions to other locks easier.

 

[hoshin1600]

As to the bolded and underlined - if you are an experienced street fighter, fighting often and fiercely, you may never have been attacked by having your arm or wrist grabbed. But that aside IMHO certainly a student will learn and polish techniques doing that which will be useful in many later techniques. Muscle memory will be developed so that when an opponent can and is grabbed in a certain way, it is just natural to do certain things. At least it was for me.

i get what your saying and in full disclosure i might teach the exact same wrist and lapel grab....BUT only for the student to work on for the first few minutes until he understands it. then i would move on to a more dynamic type of grab or at least i would put it into a better context. part of the issue i have is that the instructor in the video never put the technique into a realistic context. AND THAT is the problem a large portion of instructors do not know a proper context. without training the technique in a realistic way you will never be able to apply it.

 

[oftheherd1]

i get what your saying and in full disclosure i might teach the exact same wrist and lapel grab....BUT only for the student to work on for the first few minutes until he understands it. then i would move on to a more dynamic type of grab or at least i would put it into a better context. part of the issue i have is that the instructor in the video never put the technique into a realistic context. AND THAT is the problem a large portion of instructors do not know a proper context. without training the technique in a realistic way you will never be able to apply it.

I don't know that I would teach any of the techniques he taught. His wrist grab cannot be taught as is because he doesn't show how he is being attacked, so one cannot teach a proper defense. The use of the pressure points can be very useful, but he seems to be talking about only wrist joint manipulation when he using what I learned as pressure point use without saying so. I understand there can sometimes be a fine line between the two, as most often pressure points, at least as I learned them, are used to further an application of a technique, preventing the opponent from resisting.

But as I said before, I would probably not do things as he shows, having been taught a different way that worked well for me and other students I studied with.

 

[now disabled]

T

Tori is the one doing the technique... applying the lock in this case. Uke is the one receiving the technique... the lock is being applied to.

That may be. But the amount of pain you feel with the thumb in or out, does not take away the fact, that there is a counter available, when uke (the one the lock is being applied to) has his thumb free. When uke has his thumb grabbed as well, this particular counter is no longer available, no matter how much pain there is.

To me uke is the one doing the grabbing and nage would be the one applying the lock

 

[Gerry Seymour]

T


To me uke is the one doing the grabbing and nage would be the one applying the lock

In NGA, we universally use uke/nage. Technically, if memory serves, the person doing a lock is tori, while the person doing a throw is nage.

 

[now disabled]

In NGA, we universally use uke/nage. Technically, if memory serves, the person doing a lock is tori, while the person doing a throw is nage.

There is never a universal with terminology lol ....life would be so much simpler if there was mind you then we wouldn't have as much fun arguing about it lol

 

[O'Malley]

In NGA, we universally use uke/nage. Technically, if memory serves, the person doing a lock is tori, while the person doing a throw is nage.

We use uke and tori universally. Some styles (Yoshinkan) also use aite and sh'te.

I believe that "nage" could well mean "the one that throws" but I'm not sure that there's this kind of semantic link between tori and locks.

 

[now disabled]

We use uke and tori universally. Some styles (Yoshinkan) also use aite and sh'te

Ate is Yoshinkan