Non martial artists teaching children to punch and karate 'chop'

[jobo]

You obviously has places to do this, there's few places now where children especially in cities can climb trees, light fires etc. We do a lot of lighting fires ( cooking on them to ) and to start with we have to teach the girls to light a candle because parents won't allow them to go near matches and the girls are scared. Few people use matches now anyway what with central heating, cigarette lighters etc. There's few places to play tennis, football, rounders etc. Playing fields have been sold off for housing by the government. Parks are deemed unsafe. Life isn't as it was when you were a kid. Where I am, in a secluded village up in the Dales, kids still play out but they are very much the minority these days. Not that we have a lot of children, second homes and holiday cottages are taking over, the village school shut some time ago. Locals can't afford to buy cottages and houses in their own villages.



A lot of instructors, indeed people on here won't teach children martial arts feeling it's not an activity suitable for children for a number of reasons. I teach children of 8 and above. I feel under that they are too young or rather their bodies are too young.
They seem as I said before simple activities but it's the way leaders have expanded the activity into karate lessons is what I'm concerned about not batting a few balloons about.

facilities??? Yea right, this was 1960s Salford, we had bomb sites and derelict houses oh yes and some,derelict factories and a park patroled by a parkie who only job was to stop children enjoying themselves, no ball games keep of the grass and no you can't use the tennis,court with out paying a shilling.

we played in the street and ginnels, but we did have a house with a big tree

 

[Gerry Seymour]

yes, I did, well not base ball bats, but rounder's bats and cricket bats,and so did all the other kids, we,also instructed ourselves how to ride bikes do hand stands climb trees light fires and use yo yos in fact we instructed ourselves to do everything, when I got a tennis racket i got six balls to go with it, not a session with,a tennis coach.

kids learn through imitation and experience largely with out the help of adults, who generaly slow things down with being risk adverse. That's not to say that a couple of tips sent of value, but anyselve respecting kid will ignore you

Then you're hanging around some VERY different 5-7 year-olds than I've met.

 

[Tez3]

facilities??? Yea right, this was 1960s Salford, we had bomb sites and derelict houses oh yes and some,derelict factories and a park patroled by a parkie who only job was to stop children enjoying themselves, no ball games keep of the grass and no you can't use the tennis,court with out paying a shilling.

we played in the street and ginnels, but we did have a house with a big tree

Children today have very different lives. Cities are more built up, there's millions of cars and trucks on our roads so playing in the street is impossible. Green spaces are gobbled up for housing.
Oh and if you want to play the deprived northerner, you should have tried London in the 50s but I suppose at least we didn't have all those matchstick men wandering around like you did.

 

[jks9199]

kids in motion need a proper instructors, really, I wonder how they learnt to run and jump and skip, did mum order in a kids in motion instructor.

talk about killing child hood,

As motion becomes more complicated, kids in motion need instruction. As it becomes more specific, they need training. Kids can figure or teach themselves a front somersault, play on monkey bars... but if you want them doing complicated gymnastic motions, they need coaching and probably spotting, no? Once an organization creates a lesson and teaches it, it's incumbent on them to teach it properly and safely. From Tez's description, this is a weak lesson plan with no preparation or instruction on how to present it. Again, from her description, leaders have run way beyond what's in the lesson, and are doing their own thing with it. (In the US, the BSA Safety Matrix and policies explicitly prohibit boxing, karate, etc. except for judo, aikido, and tai chi. Lots of reasons for that, and I don't completely agree... but it's the rules. ) Will kids play fight, etc. on their own? Of course. What they do on their own i

It's simple -- some activities require proper instruction and prepared leaders to be done safely and properly. The extent of that training and preparation varies; for a lot of arts and crafts, it can probably be limited to "don't let them eat the glue or cut their clothes or fingers with the scissors." Biking may require a few "reminders" for adults that may not have learned the safety rules as well as one might hope. Swimming requires appropriate lifeguards, etc. Gymnastics may need trained spotters for safety. Martial arts? Yeah, they need a bit more coaching than a card telling them how to make fist and list of activities. As an intro activity -- it's probably stuff that could be taught via a video, on-line instruction, with a clear explanation of the limits of the course. But they should be addressing risks and safety concerns.

 

[Ironbear24]

Ok, I need some feedback on this, pretty please. The Girl Guiding Association here has put out some activity cards for the youngest section aged 5-7. One of those cards is 'Karate', it says things like 'rei is karate for bow' and 'karate is done in a dojo'. Ok no worries but then it tells leaders to get girls to make a fist ( 'make two thumbs up signs and curl your thumbs across your fingers, you've made a fist') and go around punching and 'chopping' into the air and then play 'karate tennis' punching balloons.
Now I emailed with my concerns about the punching as I have seen so many end up with sore wrists due to not knowing how to punch properly (due to lack of qualified instructor) and sore elbows due to punching into the air forcefully with straight elbows. I have even see a dislocated should due to punching like this. I was in a gym changing room once when a bunch of ladies came in from a class, they were all complaining about sore wrists and elbows, I asked how they were punching, with bent wrists and straight elbows with a lot of force! The instructor had been doing 'boxercise' and thought punching was just making a fist and throwing your arm about.

The reply I go was that safety was a priority ie the girls are told not to stand near each other and not to punch outside but they said nothing about my concerns for young joints! They did say they'd consulted British Taekwondo about how they should do a karate lesson. (Minor niggle there I'm afraid!)

Knowing young children they will put a lot of force into their punching and will carry on doing outside the unit. Guiding says it wants to introduce girls to new sports ( not against that) so if anyone is interested the instructors will have a nice time re-teaching them to punch.

Is it just me who isn't happy about people who have no idea about martial arts teaching a class on 'karate' thinking they know what it is and how to do it?


This is the page advertising the activity. It looks good I think to leaders and non martial artists but would you do gymnastics or Judo the same way? It also looks innocuous I know and it might just be me being protective of the young girls wrists etc. I know many won't teach children as young as this age group anyway. Ok please fire away and tell me I'm worrying over nothing!!!!

View attachment 20892

Red alert! This is generic karate may even be worse than mcdojo karate. I'd stay far away from this and warn friends and relatives to do the same.

 

[Steve]

Then you're hanging around some VERY different 5-7 year-olds than I've met.

That's actually not that different than my childhood. We figured things out. It wasn't very well organized. I mean I pkayed little league and all that. But we also made swords out of sticks, tried making bow and arrows, played twnbis, football, and soccer with no coaches or instruction and we spent a lot of time trying to act like ninjas and samurai. That's pretty much how it was from 3 to about 12.

 

[JowGaWolf]

In the US, the BSA Safety Matrix and policies explicitly prohibit boxing, karate, etc. except for judo, aikido, and tai chi. Lots of reasons for that, and I don't completely agree... but it's the rules. )

Man that sucks. Does that include kung fu too? we know that stuff isn't real lol. How in the heck do they justify judo but not karate? lol. I'll have to rethink my entire game plan now.

 

[jks9199]

Man that sucks. Does that include kung fu too? we know that stuff isn't real lol. How in the heck do they justify judo but not karate? lol. I'll have to rethink my entire game plan now.

There are tons of factors that combine into the BSA's policies, and I'm not qualified to espouse on all of them. The Guide to Safe Scouting is the "bible" for the Boy Scouts of America activities. Factors balance age appropriateness, how an activity fits into the overall program, whether it can be done with reasonable safety, and other concerns. Here's one take on why martial arts are generally prohibited.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's actually not that different than my childhood. We figured things out. It wasn't very well organized. I mean I pkayed little league and all that. But we also made swords out of sticks, tried making bow and arrows, played twnbis, football, and soccer with no coaches or instruction and we spent a lot of time trying to act like ninjas and samurai. That's pretty much how it was from 3 to about 12.

Acting like ninjas at age 6 is very different from competently conducting a complex skill like swinging a cricket or baseball bat or tennis racket properly. Jobo's assertion is that kids age 5-7 (the age listed in the OP) can do those sorts of things properly without help.

 

[JowGaWolf]

There are tons of factors that combine into the BSA's policies, and I'm not qualified to espouse on all of them. The Guide to Safe Scouting is the "bible" for the Boy Scouts of America activities. Factors balance age appropriateness, how an activity fits into the overall program, whether it can be done with reasonable safety, and other concerns. Here's one take on why martial arts are generally prohibited.

I guess I better double up on my Tai Chi then. I wonder what is in Judo that makes it ok.

 

[Steve]

Acting like ninjas at age 6 is very different from competently conducting a complex skill like swinging a cricket or baseball bat or tennis racket properly. Jobo's assertion is that kids age 5-7 (the age listed in the OP) can do those sorts of things properly without help.

Properly? No. Not even really with help. But improperly, we were hitting balls with bats, tennis rackets and you name it, at 7 or 8 without any coaching. We were playing football in the park, and doing all sorts of things, just by having seen it on tv. I think you're making more of this than exists.

You're adding the qualifier of "competently" to this. Competence, at age 6, is a ridiculous standard, coaching or not.

Once again, I see the original point, and sure. I get it. Some qualified coaching would be great. But without coaching, we aren't going to see kids wirithing on the ground, clutching their poor elbows, moaning and unable to use their arms. This is, at worst, harmless goofing around.

 

[drop bear]

That's actually not that different than my childhood. We figured things out. It wasn't very well organized. I mean I pkayed little league and all that. But we also made swords out of sticks, tried making bow and arrows, played twnbis, football, and soccer with no coaches or instruction and we spent a lot of time trying to act like ninjas and samurai. That's pretty much how it was from 3 to about 12.

A bicycle inner tube and a skewer makes a very serviceable bow and arrow for the kiddies.

 

[Jenna]

A bicycle inner tube and a skewer makes a very serviceable bow and arrow for the kiddies.

Awesome! And if you were lucky enough to find a sturdy enough y-shape tree branch you could make a serviceable catapult with rubber band propulsion.. Tho I could never get it to work too good.. maybe if I had had proper adult tuition or some thing....

 

[Tez3]

Martial arts isn't banned here in Scouting or Guiding here, we just have to have qualified instructors taking it which of course is at odds with a random activity of doing karate without an instructor! There's a huge list of activities we can do, some are banned for the younger girls like parachuting ( for some reason lol) but Guiding way back in the early days in the 1900s had badges for girls like 'flyer' 'backwoodsman' 'boatswain' 'carpenter' and 'electrician' all very unusual for 1911 girls, there were more badges than that of course.
We don't mollycoddle children, we challenge them, always have but sometimes there's incontinency where allowing an activity without an instructor is not even so much seen as dangerous but is a complete misunderstanding of what that activity is. if everyone can teach martial arts without any training why do we as instructors bother? Shouldn't karate be seen as an activity like gymnastics where proper instruction is necessary rather than one that because you can see it on television anyone can teach? What is wrong with introducing karate to the girls by bringing in an instructor and doing it properly?
the idea that kids can go off and learn all sorts by themselves is nice but doesn't happen much now, other than in a few areas children don't play out, parents organise loads of activities for them every day or children stay in after school clubs until picked up just before bedtimes. The past may cast a rosy glow over some of you but that's not what is happening these days. fighting play or real in the playground will get the kids hauled apart by the teachers on playground duty and probably excluded from school even at a young age. Any sort of fist made and lifted gets people hyperventilating so kids don't have rough and tumble anymore. Physical activity in schools has dropped as the government demands more and more testing and schools prep for that, they have to, schools need to rated highly or face penalties.

So when we teach something to girls without knowing how to do it ourselves it's wrong, they need proper instruction in order not just to be safe but to respect physical activity as something great, worth doing, something amazing not something anyone can do as a just game. there's also the problem, to me, that touting something as self defence which this activity is, it's labelled as such, is a big problem. so those of you who thing it's harmless do you think that it will teach young girls to defend themselves, just the activity itself taught by non martial artists?

 

[Tez3]

Awesome! And if you were lucky enough to find a sturdy enough y-shape tree branch you could make a serviceable catapult with rubber band propulsion.. Tho I could never get it to work too good.. maybe if I had had proper adult tuition or some thing....

Children don't get to do things like that anymore, many in cities never did anyway. Rosy nostalgia is great but doesn't help with the problems children face today.

 

[Tez3]

Something to think about too, children do love messing around on their own but they also absolutely love doing something properly 'like grown ups'. Yes, they can throw a ball but being shown how to bowl a cricket ball by a cricketer or dribble a football properly by a footballer enthuses and inspires them. They love it so they deserve the chance to be similarly enthused about karate with a proper instructor passing on their enthusiasm and passion.

 

[jobo]

As motion becomes more complicated, kids in motion need instruction. As it becomes more specific, they need training. Kids can figure or teach themselves a front somersault, play on monkey bars... but if you want them doing complicated gymnastic motions, they need coaching and probably spotting, no? Once an organization creates a lesson and teaches it, it's incumbent on them to teach it properly and safely. From Tez's description, this is a weak lesson plan with no preparation or instruction on how to present it. Again, from her description, leaders have run way beyond what's in the lesson, and are doing their own thing with it. (In the US, the BSA Safety Matrix and policies explicitly prohibit boxing, karate, etc. except for judo, aikido, and tai chi. Lots of reasons for that, and I don't completely agree... but it's the rules. ) Will kids play fight, etc. on their own? Of course. What they do on their own i

It's simple -- some activities require proper instruction and prepared leaders to be done safely and properly. The extent of that training and preparation varies; for a lot of arts and crafts, it can probably be limited to "don't let them eat the glue or cut their clothes or fingers with the scissors." Biking may require a few "reminders" for adults that may not have learned the safety rules as well as one might hope. Swimming requires appropriate lifeguards, etc. Gymnastics may need trained spotters for safety. Martial arts? Yeah, they need a bit more coaching than a card telling them how to make fist and list of activities. As an intro activity -- it's probably stuff that could be taught via a video, on-line instruction, with a clear explanation of the limits of the course. But they should be addressing risks and safety concerns.

all of which is true and non of which applies to this,scenario, they are being tought to play balloon tennis using a,fist, not try out for the under 8s gymnastic championship .

that said,children have been teaching themselves to fight for generations, through play fighting and real fighting, its a prime example of experience learning.

 

[Tez3]

all of which is true and non of which applies to this,scenario, they are being tought to play balloon tennis using a,fist, not try out for the under 8s gymnastic championship .

that said,children have been teaching themselves to fight for generations, through play fighting and real fighting, its a prime example of experience learning.

I love how you pick out bits and try to make them fit your perceptions. No, they aren't just being taught to play balloon tennis and rarely do girls teach themselves to fight, if only they did. You are being such an old grouch, this is a chance to inspire young girls to come into martial arts by having a passionate practitioner of martial arts come in and enthuse girls into becoming martial artists and all you can say is kids have been teaching themselves to fight for years. Even though these days it's actually quite hard for kids to get any experience that way now, do you actually do a martial art or are you just a professional curmudgeon?

 

[jobo]

I love how you pick out bits and try to make them fit your perceptions. No, they aren't just being taught to play balloon tennis and rarely do girls teach themselves to fight, if only they did. You are being such an old grouch, this is a chance to inspire young girls to come into martial arts by having a passionate practitioner of martial arts come in and enthuse girls into becoming martial artists and all you can say is kids have been teaching themselves to fight for years. Even though these days it's actually quite hard for kids to get any experience that way now, do you actually do a martial art or are you just a professional curmudgeon?

your original complaint was that it was,Very dangerous, now its that they could be inspired to take up fighting, you really have to pick an objection and stick with it, or we will just flip flop about all day.

 

[Tez3]

your original complaint was that it was,Very dangerous, now its that they could be inspired to take up fighting, you really have to pick an objection and stick with it, or we will just flip flop about all day.

You are such a silly billy, really you are! I didn't say it was very dangerous, I said non martial arts instructors teaching martial arts techniques such as punching incorrectly can and will lead to sore wrists. Sadly, you are trolling yet again, it's such a shame you waste so much time not being very good at it.
And as to why you think I would be against girls fighting I have no idea, it's one of my favourite things.
I'd be interested to know what you qualifications are for teaching children martial arts or anyone for that matter given that you are telling us they should be teaching themselves but wait, I forgot for a moment you are just being disagreeable because you like being disagreeable and will post up contrary posts just because you can. You have offered no advice, no good ideas other than what you did as a kid so nothing positive from you.
Will you volunteer to come into a Rainbow unit near you to teach martial arts?