Non martial artists teaching children to punch and karate 'chop'

[Gerry Seymour]

what children need is plenty of robust exercises not mollycodling I really doubt they are going to be punching the air for an hour, id be surprised if their attention span is five minutes.and if they get tired or bored they will stop And i doubt their punches will look much like punches,And if they get sore arms that's good, that helps them develop,

At their age, sore muscles aren't likely to happen often. I think she's talking about sore joints (she said sore wrists). Kids that age are still developing their joints, and injury like that to them has a greater impact on that development. It's why I never taught joint locks to kids. Extensive punching into the air has questionable value unless one is using it for a specific purpose (stamina development, working on form, etc.), and more so when untrained, and even more so for kids.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

As long as the instructors don't try to teach how to punch and just let the kids use their fist in a way that feels natural then the kids should be fine. Kids have a tendency to move in ways that are more natural and proper on their own. It's not until unqualified people start teaching punching techniques that the problems.

If it's for limited periods of time, I agree this is probably the safest route. Kids move in pretty natural ways. But still not if it's going to include extended periods of striking air (and balloons aren't much better).

 

[Tez3]

For an hour? Yeah, that's bad. I didn't catch that when I read your OP. I thought it was mostly about the balloon exercise. I can see no good in someone who doesn't know how to punch teaching kids how to punch, then having them do it for an hour.

I can't imagine the kids will be thrilled, either.

The trouble is with us, we are very enthusiastic ( we even have songs about how much we are lol) we throw ourselves into things, so if a thing is worth doing it's worth doing hugely to paraphrase a certain President.
So leaders don't just show them a punch they tell them to really throw it! 'Go for it girls' is the usual cry. Nothing about Guiding is wishy washy or just done because we can do it, we do it with determination and at full gas hence my worries about sore wrists, elbows and shoulders, no sore muscles of course, children don't often get them but the damage to hyperextended elbows and to the tendons in their wrists.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

The trouble is with us, we are very enthusiastic ( we even have songs about how much we are lol) we throw ourselves into things, so if a thing is worth doing it's worth doing hugely to paraphrase a certain President.
So leaders don't just show them a punch they tell them to really throw it! 'Go for it girls' is the usual cry. Nothing about Guiding is wishy washy or just done because we can do it, we do it with determination and at full gas hence my worries about sore wrists, elbows and shoulders, no sore muscles of course, children don't often get them but the damage to hyperextended elbows and to the tendons in their wrists.

Another problem I've found is a lot of sports teachers hold the attitude of "suck it up, pain is good" which is in a way but can also be a very bad thing. I've had kids come into my swimming lessons complaining that they injured themselves at school during sports lessons (usually their legs) and I've then asked what their teacher said about it, and the teacher said "you're fine, carry on". Yes I know children can exaggerate things but you still have to consider that the child is hurt if they say so. It's almost like the teachers don't care at all what happens to the kids.

 

[jks9199]

Well, wouldn't expect you to actually understand. In Guiding we don't wrap girls up in cottonwool, we do a lot of adventurous activities BUT we have proper qualified instructors. We do climbing, canoeing, adventure training, camping ( cooking on fires no cookers etc) it's not too much to expect that if we have qualified instructors for all other sports and activities that we also have them for 'karate'.

I agree. Proper instruction and training for leaders is as important for even arts & crafts activities, let alone anything that involves the kids in motion. While the lesson, as described, may not be as dangerous or high risk as climbing or canoeing... it still has risks and needs to be done properly.

I'd suggest you keep pushing the issue through channels, advise other leaders considering the program, and maybe find/provide a list of instructors willing to teach the lesson properly, rather than trying to figure it out from cards.

 

[jobo]

I agree. Proper instruction and training for leaders is as important for even arts & crafts activities, let alone anything that involves the kids in motion. While the lesson, as described, may not be as dangerous or high risk as climbing or canoeing... it still has risks and needs to be done properly.

I'd suggest you keep pushing the issue through channels, advise other leaders considering the program, and maybe find/provide a list of instructors willing to teach the lesson properly, rather than trying to figure it out from cards.

kids in motion need a proper instructors, really, I wonder how they learnt to run and jump and skip, did mum order in a kids in motion instructor.

talk about killing child hood,

 

[JowGaWolf]

If it's for limited periods of time, I agree this is probably the safest route. Kids move in pretty natural ways. But still not if it's going to include extended periods of striking air (and balloons aren't much better).

When I read the instructions it didn't seem like it was continuous punching for an hour. The hour time may be how long it takes to do the activity, that includes setting up, explaining and trying to get the kids to pay attention, and ending the activity.

I would need to see the activity simply because I couldn't see anyone at those ages being entertained with punching for an hour. Those kids aren't going to push through when they start getting bored. If they begin to get bored then they are going to stop and then try to do something else other than the activity.

 

[jobo]

When I read the instructions it didn't seem like it was continuous punching for an hour. The hour time may be how long it takes to do the activity, that includes setting up, explaining and trying to get the kids to pay attention, and ending the activity.

I would need to see the activity simply because I couldn't see anyone at those ages being entertained with punching for an hour. Those kids aren't going to push through when they start getting bored. If they begin to get bored then they are going to stop and then try to do something else other than the activity.

I think its self limiting very very few people can punch continuously for an hour, I'm betting these 6 years old arnt among them,

I thing we need a reality check, its playing balloon tennis in teams, punching a balloon, there's not a,drill,Sargent making them punch the air for an hour

 

[Tez3]

kids in motion need a proper instructors, really, I wonder how they learnt to run and jump and skip, did mum order in a kids in motion instructor.

talk about killing child hood,

Did you know a lot of children now can't skip or do forward rolls? We see them coming into martial arts like that all the time. What you aren't seeing is that in UK primary schools there is little to no PT anymore not even games. Most don't have sports grounds or anywhere to do sports. it behoves us to teach our children how to do things properly not half arsed. Your viewpoint is that of someone who is happy to let kids do things badly in the mistake belief it's better than doing nothing. If a jobs worth doing it's wordth doing damn well and that's what we owe our children, the best instruction, the best coaches and the best sports training we can give them not amateurs who know nothing and can inadvertently damage young bones etc. Nearly half of children 'leave school without basic movement skills', study says

When I read the instructions it didn't seem like it was continuous punching for an hour. The hour time may be how long it takes to do the activity, that includes setting up, explaining and trying to get the kids to pay attention, and ending the activity.

I would need to see the activity simply because I couldn't see anyone at those ages being entertained with punching for an hour. Those kids aren't going to push through when they start getting bored. If they begin to get bored then they are going to stop and then try to do something else other than the activity.

Please read my posts, I said that leaders have already done this activity for an hour or more, they have reported back saying they did it first as punching and 'chopping' around the room, then they did a karate lesson as they have seen it on films etc and then they played the tennis game, this took an hour and sometimes a bit over. Rainbows, Brownies and Guides are more than used to doing activities without getting bored for just an hour. The leaders said the girls enjoyed it and the time went quickly, we don't 'entertain' girls I'm afraid, it isn't a youth club or after school activity. Girls work hard for badges, and regularly do challenges and are used to doing one activity for an hour ( they do in school as well). It's preparation for when they go on to do the Duke of Edinburgh's Award, the Baden-Powell Award and the Queen's Guide Award.
I did say that leaders take to things enthusiastically and are doing far more than just that on the instruction sheet, I know of one who is also doing kicks because she's done them in her fitness class ( not a martial arts class)

 

[JowGaWolf]

Please read my posts, I said that leaders have already done this activity for an hour or more, they have reported back saying they did it first as punching and 'chopping' around the room, then they did a karate lesson as they have seen it on films etc and then they played the tennis game, this took an hour and sometimes a bit over.

When I read this I read it as the activity took that long to do, and not that the kids were actually punching for more than an hour. For example, kung fu classes at my school are an hour. But it doesn't mean that we are doing kung fu non-stop for an hour. There are breaks, there are lectures, there are conditioning exercises. It's not a continuous hour of punching and kicking. So when I see that a kids activity is an hour, I just assume that the amount of time used for the activity is an hour, but it's not continuous punching and chopping around the room for an hour.

This is what I was like when I was a kid. Play kung fu fights it probably lasted a good 30 minutes before we started doing something else . None of what they are doing is going to kill their joints. The movement's that they are imitating are most likely done in the way that is most comfortable and natural to the body movement and place. Granted none of that stuff is effective it moves naturally. This is what was going through my mind. Kids going around looking like this hitting balloons. If the kids can punch like this for hours and be fine because the movements are based on what feels natural for them. It's not a trained movement.

I didn't see where you stated that they did an actual karate lesson. If they are doing an actual karate lesson then this is where proper technique needs to come in for the reason you stated. They are training a movement vs allowing a child to punch in a way that feels natural to them. Teaching the body to move a specific way is where doing it right counts. I look at punching the same way that I look at running. These can be done naturally which may or may not be effective. None of these are trained movements, we walk and run according to what feels natural as our movement. Then we have speed walking and track. Now we are talking about trained movements and if done incorrectly injuries occur. I had the impression that the environment was some kind of youth club or after school activity.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

kids in motion need a proper instructors, really, I wonder how they learnt to run and jump and skip, did mum order in a kids in motion instructor.

talk about killing child hood,

Would you argue that kids (in general, not the few) can learn to swing a baseball/cricket bat properly at that age without help?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

When I read the instructions it didn't seem like it was continuous punching for an hour. The hour time may be how long it takes to do the activity, that includes setting up, explaining and trying to get the kids to pay attention, and ending the activity.

I would need to see the activity simply because I couldn't see anyone at those ages being entertained with punching for an hour. Those kids aren't going to push through when they start getting bored. If they begin to get bored then they are going to stop and then try to do something else other than the activity.

That was my original read, too. The hour was based upon Tez's later posts.

 

[Tez3]

If they are doing an actual karate lesson then this is where proper technique needs to come in for the reason you stated. They are training a movement vs allowing a child to punch in a way that feels natural to them. Teaching the body to move a specific way is where doing it right counts. I look at punching the same way that I look at running. These can be done naturally which may or may not be effective. None of these are trained movements, we walk and run according to what feels natural as our movement. Then we have speed walking and track. Now we are talking about trained movements and if done incorrectly injuries occur. I had the impression that the environment was some kind of youth club or after school activity.

Girl Guiding ( Girl Scouts in some countries, but same thing) is the biggest charity for girls in the world, leaders are volunteers from all walks of life, it is a uniformed organisation. As an organisation we also work to help others, Guides in areas struck by Ebola are going around villages teaching personal hygiene, others are working with refugees, in Nepal they helped put up tents and care for people affected by the earthquake, others have gone to the UN to debate international issues. We have world centres in London, Mexico, Switzerland, India and Africa. this is the UK What we do and this is the world organisation What we do

Leaders are taking the cards and expanding on them which is what they are supposed to do so some are doing a whole karate lesson as seen on television and films. They are also a precursor to the new programme which is taking the next two years to change. there's a thread on FB about this and more info is coming in all the time about how leaders are doing this activity hence my comments are updating.

Seems a lot of people don't punch properly. FightingArts.com - The Basic Punch -Alignment Can Help Or Hurt You

 

[jobo]

Would you argue that kids (in general, not the few) can learn to swing a baseball/cricket bat properly at that age without help?

yes, I did, well not base ball bats, but rounder's bats and cricket bats,and so did all the other kids, we,also instructed ourselves how to ride bikes do hand stands climb trees light fires and use yo yos in fact we instructed ourselves to do everything, when I got a tennis racket i got six balls to go with it, not a session with,a tennis coach.

kids learn through imitation and experience largely with out the help of adults, who generaly slow things down with being risk adverse. That's not to say that a couple of tips sent of value, but anyselve respecting kid will ignore you

 

[donald1]

that sounds like simple fun activities for them which is great. however. like the others are saying. it would be a good idea for them to know the difference between fun activities and actual karate. good luck!

 

[jobo]

that sounds like simple fun activities for them which is great. however. like the others are saying. it would be a good idea for them to know the difference between fun activities and actual karate. good luck!

that makes it sound like karate is not a fun activity

 

[donald1]

that makes it sound like karate is not a fun activity

no, it is fun. however young kids usually have different ideas of fun.

 

[Tez3]

yes, I did, well not base ball bats, but rounder's bats and cricket bats,and so did all the other kids, we,also instructed ourselves how to ride bikes do hand stands climb trees light fires and use yo yos in fact we instructed ourselves to do everything, when I got a tennis racket i got six balls to go with it, not a session with,a tennis coach.

kids learn through imitation and experience largely with out the help of adults, who generaly slow things down with being risk adverse. That's not to say that a couple of tips sent of value, but anyselve respecting kid will ignore you

You obviously has places to do this, there's few places now where children especially in cities can climb trees, light fires etc. We do a lot of lighting fires ( cooking on them to ) and to start with we have to teach the girls to light a candle because parents won't allow them to go near matches and the girls are scared. Few people use matches now anyway what with central heating, cigarette lighters etc. There's few places to play tennis, football, rounders etc. Playing fields have been sold off for housing by the government. Parks are deemed unsafe. Life isn't as it was when you were a kid. Where I am, in a secluded village up in the Dales, kids still play out but they are very much the minority these days. Not that we have a lot of children, second homes and holiday cottages are taking over, the village school shut some time ago. Locals can't afford to buy cottages and houses in their own villages.

that sounds like simple fun activities for them which is great. however. like the others are saying. it would be a good idea for them to know the difference between fun activities and actual karate. good luck!

A lot of instructors, indeed people on here won't teach children martial arts feeling it's not an activity suitable for children for a number of reasons. I teach children of 8 and above. I feel under that they are too young or rather their bodies are too young.
They seem as I said before simple activities but it's the way leaders have expanded the activity into karate lessons is what I'm concerned about not batting a few balloons about.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Seems a lot of people don't punch properly.

This is probably an understatement.

 

[Tez3]

For an example of what I mean about how we as leaders go so much further than the suggestions. We are probably totally mad. We had a Harry Potter Challenge Badge where the girls do several things to earn it so we had a weekend away, we spent a few weeks preparing everything for the girls. We had a sorting hat and houses, academic gowns, potions, a small cardboard replica Ford Anglia car, spells, we had real owls ( yep, a local person brought their owls to us), 'magical' food, beasts, the hall where we stayed was decorated to look like Hogwarts, the whole weekend was totally Harry Potter and the girls loved it. It wasn't necessary to do that to complete the challenge badge but we do it because we throw ourselves in whole heartedly so of course tell them 'karate' and they are away, doing karate classes, punching, should I mention the 'screaming' trying to sound like Bruce Lee because of course he's the icon for martial arts so I imagine there's more than 'karate' going into these sessions! I know how we work and I know the girls too will throw themselves into this, so it does worry me.