krav maga video on joint manipulations; im not a fan

[hoshin1600]

Hoshin1600 I think you are expecting to much from a 2 minute instructional video on joint manipulations. I believe you are being way to critical for such a short video on this subject.



Hoshin have you ever considered that English might not be his primary language. When I googled the instructor, his bio says he learned KM starting at age 7 from Imi Lichtenfeld and is certified by the Wingate Institute in Israel. When I listened to him talk I thought there were other phrases that slightly seemed out of place like when listening to someone trying to translate something in their head and then express it. His wording wasn't way off, just slightly.

While he calls it a wrist manipulation he then clarifies that by saying "wrist manipulation, or or the manipulation of the wrist, the elbow, or anything on the arm......." leading to his bigger point as to why to do a manipulation in the first place. I don't believe this was lack of knowledge in his phrasing but possibly loss of thought on how to phrase it properly. Maybe he didn't have cue cards with all of his words scripted out, maybe he was nervous in front of the camera who knows. My point is you take a pretty big leap here to say

"but it stood out to me that the lack of detailed terminology might be an indicator that he doesnt know the material that well."



I'm sorry your disappointed. Again I feel the guy is trying to cover his bases here explaining how KM is a broad scope art that was designed for both civilian and LEOs and sometimes it is easier to solve the problem with joint manipulations (i.e. joint cranks, locks, arm bars etc.etc.) rather than just beating on the person with your fist.



Sorry again I disagree with you, I didn't get that at all from watching and listening to the video. I never heard him say "I apologize for this next part (of the video) because it doesn't work. I don't believe this works but I have to put it in here cause this is a video on joint manipulation ad that why your viewing it so here goes. But in reality I'd just hit the guy cause beating on him works every time. hehehehe sinckersnicker cough cough" What I heard him say was a short description on what to look for when applying the lock/crank/manipulation such having the arm bent, the forearm horizontal to the floor, pressure applied to the side of the wrist and from the outside of the elbow, along with rotation of the wrist. Then a quick demonstration when he applied the rotation. After explaining the mechanics of the crank or manipulation he then shows how you could do this off of a hand grab (here's where he says what he does about not punching), then he shows the technique again from the grabbing of his shirt. Off of the same basic technique he showed three basic ways of getting the same lock along with two demos of how to apply the technique. I don't see it that he doesn't understand the technique, nor that he doesn't believe it works.



So you grab the fingers and the thumb good for you. He shows grabbing the meaty part of the hand at 1:41, then at 2:01 he shows trapping the fingers to his wrist as he rotates his hand over their wrist, and at 2:16 he shows the capture and rotation of the wrist off of the tee shirt grab again grabbing the meaty part of the hand but this time he applies pressure downward on the elbow as if to prevent it from rising upwards. I listed this as a variation of the basic technique because I didn't really see him apply pressure on the elbow back towards the wrist so that he got a combination compression lock along with the cranking of the wrist which he demonstrated at first. Because I thought he just went into variation where he is preventing the elbow from rising, but he might have just been taking it easy on his partner.

I didn't see anything worth criticizing him about.


What's wrong with him saying " in many many ways"? Let me see should he have said "let me count the ways" and then go off listing them, or demoing them. So much for the short 2 minute video.



It is a short demo video showing how to do a specific lock with a few applications. It's not a course on wrist locks. The cross body wrist grab is a common way for someone to grab your wrist. A person grabbing your hand doesn't really give you the right to beat the crap out of them with your fist. It doesn't give you the right to crank their wrist so hard you strain it or damage it either. You need to learn to apply it without hurting your training partners, so you can start from here at this point safely.

People don't think wrist cranks work because we are gentle in the dojo. The difference between the lock being "ON!" and "off" is less than an 1/4 of an inch (or so) so it can't be seen it has to be felt.

I once asked GM Remy Presas to help me with a lock. At a camp my friend and I had issues with the two finger over the shoulder take down. Similar entry to Sankyo (stepping under the arm and applying a joint crank capturing two finger then over the shoulder take down) but we felt we could counter the technique since we would lose the lock in the transition for the take down. He said grab my hand,I grabbed, I then felt incredible pain as my fingers felt like they were being ripped out of my hand and then I was on my back with him standing over me asking "Do you understand". Remy showed me right then that allof the abscessing we had been doing over "well I could counter here and there" was just BS when it was applied with the intention of locking the fingers and taking me down to the ground for real. I had no time to counter, I had no time to think about countering, I just felt PAIN!!!! and then I was on my back.

Another time GM Remy applied to me the same wrist lock from a hand grab that is demonstrated in the video; again I felt tremendous pain and then I was on my knees in the dirt pleading for the pain to stop. There was no way for me to counter, no hit to the groin no trying to grab is leg etc. etc. Remy was showing me how to have faith in the technique, to believe it works by having felt it. I don't need to do the same thing to my students to practice the technique.



Because the locks/cranks work and are painful. You have to start somewhere and these are valid ways (speaking of the wrist grabs etc.etc.) to teach the material to beginners. After this they can begin to see all of the different variations of the locks but you have to start somewhere.



Hoshin I don't teach KM, practice KM etc. etc. I know nothing about this instructor his teaching methods or his abilities. I just think you expected to much from a 2 minute video and you unjustly made comments about the guy that were uncalled for.

Hey mark, good points and a great story about GM Remy.
Perhaps didn't make it clear enough the first few sentences of my original post. That I was analyzing this video but doing so as an abstract representation of the martial arts in general.
I felt that the video captured many points that mirror the martial arts community the foster and propagate the belief that joint manipulation doesn't work and poor teaching practices because it was very stereo typical of what is commonly taught.
My view on the video was disappointing because I was expecting something different from Krav when all I got was the same stereo typical lame wrist lock that even McDojo will teach.
I did say that this video was a good catalyst for a discussion on the subject. It's not my intention to put someone on a cross and whip them to death, but maybe that is how it turned out.

 

[dunc]

Nope. Just need to be slicker at wrist locks.

They are mostly trained wronf for a live opponent

For what it's worth this is my experience

In standing there is a lot of freedom of movement and setting up the wrist (eg getting the arm extended or completely isolated) on an experienced, resisting opponent is very hard. 90% of the time the opportunity to apply a wrist lock is against a grip of some sort (I don't buy the catch a punch theory) so you have to deal with a grip to your jacket (which requires some work) or wrist (which gives your opponent a lot of feedback during the set up)

I find that I need to use strikes to extend the arm, disrupt their structure etc in order to pull off a complete wrist lock. I don't know of any traditional japanese jujutsu techniques where a wrist lock is applied absent striking of some sort

Wrist locks work really well in standing to augment a more structural take down, as grip releases and so on but this is different to a full on wrist lock (appreciate that I'm defining this in a particular way)

On the ground you have more opportunity to apply wrist locks because you can constrain your opponent's movement more and despite some discussion in the BJJ community I use them all the time in rolling

 

[now disabled]

Gerry and ND

Not sure if I follow you right so please forgive me if I'm intruding. One technique I've used in several different applications when someone straighten their arm and I'm trying to get to the "S" (I don't call it a Z lock, but I think it's Nikyu (?))thus preventing the lock. Is to go around the wrist to crank it back in towards the person thus getting them to bend the arm and then reapply the lock. So if the wrist is horizontal but the arm is straight, then apply pressure to rotate the wrist vertical thumb down and back in (or towards the outside bending the elbow) and apply the lock that way just a thought.



Gerry
I see the point but by understanding the technical aspects of the mechanics allows the student to then see how it can be applied in many different situations. For instance taking the same wrist lock as shown in the video. When I teach it it is generally from the wrist grab as shown. Now later when that same position comes up in training; whether it is with a stick release, or a counter to a stick defense, or when the person grabs your knife hand, or a move in a bo kata, as a teacher I can't possibly cover all of those and many others in a single lesson, however by covering the physical details of the lock in good detail then my students learn to see it in the other situations as described. Thus they learn to teach and see things for themselves.

Hi there

are you meaning by yanking the wrist you are in effect putting the fingers back towards the forearm? i dunno if that makes sense

if that is the case then from an Aikido terminology you are then going more towards sankkyo and that is a lock on it's own

if you mean something else then sorry

 

[Mark Lynn]

Hi there

are you meaning by yanking the wrist you are in effect putting the fingers back towards the forearm? i dunno if that makes sense

if that is the case then from an Aikido terminology you are then going more towards sankkyo and that is a lock on it's own

if you mean something else then sorry

No I don't think so, I'm not yanking on the fingers. Say person A has grabbed my wrist in a cross hand hold. I try and circle my arm to get it in the position for the "S"/"Z" lock (as shown on the video at 2:01), but the person straightens their arm out like the guy in the video mentioned (he showed how the arm needs to be bent) thus he's not allowing me to crank the wrist over without trying to rotate the whole arm etc. etc.

To counter the arm being straight start the rotation of the wrist then cut back in towards the arm thus bending it and the wrist getting the same configuration basically as the "S"/"Z" lock but on a slightly vertical or diagonal line instead of horizontal like it is shown in the video. Once the arm is bent then manipulate the arm back into the proper horizontal plane.

It could be called a different lock in Aikido I don't know, I'm not a Akidoist or would it be a Aikido ka, whatever. I was just mentioning this as a counter to a person straightening their arm since that seemed to be the discussion. FWIW.

 

[Headhunter]

What is "real" Krav Maga? Because everyone claims these days that they are trained by the IDF and Imi himself.
The European instructors here will probably say the same about the Krav of your instructor, because they all want to be the "real" one.....

For me Krav was always about gross motor skills and not about arm locks like this and I have been in Krav of and on from 2003.

Well they can say what they like doesn't bother me. My instructor has trained for years with eyal yanilov. Who was imis top student and right hand man so I have no doubts about my instructors credentials

 

[now disabled]

No I don't think so, I'm not yanking on the fingers. Say person A has grabbed my wrist in a cross hand hold. I try and circle my arm to get it in the position for the "S"/"Z" lock (as shown on the video at 2:01), but the person straightens their arm out like the guy in the video mentioned (he showed how the arm needs to be bent) thus he's not allowing me to crank the wrist over without trying to rotate the whole arm etc. etc.

To counter the arm being straight start the rotation of the wrist then cut back in towards the arm thus bending it and the wrist getting the same configuration basically as the "S"/"Z" lock but on a slightly vertical or diagonal line instead of horizontal like it is shown in the video. Once the arm is bent then manipulate the arm back into the proper horizontal plane.

It could be called a different lock in Aikido I don't know, I'm not a Akidoist or would it be a Aikido ka, whatever. I was just mentioning this as a counter to a person straightening their arm since that seemed to be the discussion. FWIW.

can I pm you I'll send you a couple f vids of ikkyyo and sankkyo

 

[Mark Lynn]

Hey mark, good points and a great story about GM Remy.
Perhaps didn't make it clear enough the first few sentences of my original post. That I was analyzing this video but doing so as an abstract representation of the martial arts in general.

Yeah I didn't get that that you were looking at it from this view point (in bold). It sounded more like you were ragging on him and KM to an extant. No problem.

I felt that the video captured many points that mirror the martial arts community the foster and propagate the belief that joint manipulation doesn't work and poor teaching practices because it was very stereo typical of what is commonly taught.

I'm curious about this statement (1st bold words). How does this foster and propagate the belief that joint manipulation doesn't work. To what audience is this saying that? If it is to the uninformed, non practitioners who cares, they don't know squat nor felt a painful lock in the first place. They are in a state or ignorant bliss. To the informed then they might see something that helps them to get the lock right,or to view it from a different angle (angle as in view point). It's only a two minute video not a Doctrinal thesis.

Again I'm sorry to disagree but I didn't see him present the subject matter for what it was as a poor teaching method. He explained the mechanics of the lock, what to watch out for, and two applications in a little over two minutes on a video that people can rewind many times to get all the point s correct. I thought it was pretty clear presentation.

My view on the video was disappointing because I was expecting something different from Krav when all I got was the same stereo typical lame wrist lock that even McDojo will teach.

It was a joint manipulation video from KM, not Aikijujitsu or Aikido. Those arts specialize or have a large part of the art in locking, cranking etc. etc. KM specializes in things more (common) self defense oriented material. Why would you think that KM would have something so different in a joint manipulation video? KM in it's very nature was a system comprised of techniques and strategies from different systems to meet the needs of Israelis; to teach effective SD in a relatively short time, to civilian and military/LEOs in a country where violence was a part of life (I'm speaking of the threat of war, terrorist acts, riots etc.etc.). Looking to KM for real different joint manipulations is like looking to traditional martial arts for knife, staff, or gun SD techniques.

Speaking to your 2nd bold comment. The first example he showed with the compression on the elbow and the wrist as the wrist is being turned (1:41) is more painful then the second application with the wrist grab (2:01). The 2nd lock is a common lock,the one with the compressions added in not so much so. From my experience (from a wide swath of seminar training in a variety of arts) the 1st one when shown has more people never seeing it before than the 2nd one. Yes while a McDojo might show the 2nd one generally unless they have some Hapkido mixed in then generally they don't really teach it. It's not common as I believe you make it sound. Not that it isn't taught openly or it's a secret technique, but rather karate/TKD schools generally teach a wrist release and hit then the lock. Cause that's what they specialize in.

I did say that this video was a good catalyst for a discussion on the subject. It's not my intention to put someone on a cross and whip them to death, but maybe that is how it turned out.

OK I buy that. That is what I felt you were doing, but I accept that wasn't the intent. I do think the video has turned out to be a good catalyst for discussion over all. I have replied in kind to have a discussion.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Now disabled

Sure you can send them to me.

Not sure how to work the PM or not but go a head and try. Just FYI I say this partly in jest because one of my former students tried to PM me on MT (about instruction) and my mail box was always full. So for a year she tried to get hold of me and gave up. Finally meeting me at another school (just by chance that was their last day there as students, and I had gone there to meet the head instructor) she freaked out when another instructor sent her over to meet me and she found out who I was. Her family was with me till June of this year, and that was in Nov. 2010. I don't think I've still looked at my PM box.

But I will check it.

 

[oftheherd1]

It is interesting to hear about straightening an opponent's arm, or bending it, just to set up a wrist or arm lock of some joint. In the Hapkido I learned, our application usually takes care of straightening or bending an arm or wrist as needed.

I would also mention that arm grabbing in mid-air is not to be believed in. the first time that happened to me was in sparing with a Moo Duk Kwan instructor while sparing. He reached out with a claw hook, grabbed my wrist and pulled me into a strike so fast I didn't know what happened. For those of you who don't think they work, I think you are talking about grabbing a strike, yes? Have you ever been taught techniques to do so, and if so, how many times did you practice those techniques to know you could not do them?

 

[Dirty Dog]

I would also mention that arm grabbing in mid-air is not to be believed in. the first time that happened to me was in sparing with a Moo Duk Kwan instructor while sparing. He reached out with a claw hook, grabbed my wrist and pulled me into a strike so fast I didn't know what happened. For those of you who don't think they work, I think you are talking about grabbing a strike, yes? Have you ever been taught techniques to do so, and if so, how many times did you practice those techniques to know you could not do them?

It's worth mentioning that you do not necessarily have to wait for them to strike. If you're close enough to strike, you're also close enough to attack the arm. Instead of grabbing it while they're punching, you can grab it while it's in guard/cover. One simple example. Two people in closed stance (meaning they're both leading with the same hand, probably the left). You would essentially throw a backfist, but aimed at their arm, not their head. Use that to push their guard across, out of the way of the punch to the head you're throwing with the other hand. That's the version for a tournament that doesn't allow grabbing. If you want to grab, it's a simple matter to grab the arm rather than push it with the backfist.
If you can block a strike (rather than covering), you can grab it. 100% of the time? Of course not. Is there anything that's 100%? But you can do so with reasonable consistency. And a failed grab is still an open hand block.

 

[oftheherd1]

It is interesting to hear about straightening an opponent's arm, or bending it, just to set up a wrist or arm lock of some joint. In the Hapkido I learned, our application usually takes care of straightening or bending an arm or wrist as needed.

I would also like to comment on the statement that arm grabbing in mid-air is not to be believed in. the first time that happened to me was in sparing with a Moo Duk Kwan instructor while sparing. He reached out with a claw hook, grabbed my wrist and pulled me into a strike so fast I didn't know what happened. For those of you who don't think they work, I think you are talking about grabbing a strike, yes? Have you ever been taught techniques to do so, and if so, how many times did you practice those techniques to know you could not do them?

Bold is an edit. Sorry.

 

[now disabled]

Then my instructor has the same credentials he's training with Eyal Yanilov for 20 years now and is the director for his organisation for the Netherlands.

When you practice Krav Maga for a longer time you will see good things and very bad things when you already have a background in other systems.

One of the bad things is it's business model and everlasting cycle of exams and instructor courses.

For me Krav Maga is like JKD, every instructor might have the same basics but they all have their own interpretation of those basics. That's why the quality of instruction vary so much.

The cycle of gradings and courses is part of all the arts in this society, as it if gradings, belts, ranks etc are effective or the correct procedure, well that is entirely another thread and argument but yes I can and do understand your comment there.

As for instructors putting there own "stamp" on what they are teaching then that happens again in all arts, Maybe for instance an Instructor sees a flaw (or perceives he can see one) or maybe due to his teaching location he leaves parts of the art out as he sees no immediate need for teaching that (ie in the UK it is less likely that a person will need the skill of taking a gun of an opponent or be faced with one on a regular basis) that is his choice, I have seen two instructors both taught by the same teacher and having very different approaches, that is the nature of the arts, is that good or bad well that is again another argument and one that will rage in every art and does frequently.

Every art has flaws ...every art...there is no perfect system ...on paper there may be and in the high and deep echelons of some arts there may be ... but there is no ultimate art or perfect system as it all hinges on transmission and that big issue human beings.