Ninjas still around today?

[Cryozombie]

Hey, thanks! Their selection looks awesome!

Any titles you can recomend to me, (as a bujinkan practitioner I'm especially interested in books that give history and background on its arts or related ones)

I recently picked up "Secrets of the Samurai" at a bookstore near here in the clearance tables for like 5 bucks. Its an american book to be sure... have any of you read it, and if so, how is the information contained within?

Also, Scooter, I saw another post that said that you asked Ed Martin a question about Soke Hatsumi... Do you study under Mr. Martin?

 

[Jay Bell]

Before I start here...I just had a 30 minute post that I hit the back button on....I'm a wee ticked...

Here goes..

And if I seem to be getting mad, it may be because I state facts and am attacked for it by members of the Bujinkan and other members will not comment on their fellow student's bad behavior.

You've used the term "facts" quite a bit. I have yet to see any save for, "So and so said" or "I heard from someone" nonsense. Anyway...I am no longer a member of the Bujinkan...nor am I any longer responsible for "fellow student's bad behavior" (which I've seen no evidence of here)

I have heard that the kenjutsu orginization is not very highly regarded. The fact remains that he is not a member of the two most highly regarded orginizations in Japan that actually check the claims of its applicants.

"I have heard".

Excuse me, did I not just mention the fact that Hatsumi was not a member of the two orginizations that actually check their members claims? He tried to join (source- Donn Draeger who was a member) but was refused based on his lack of proof for Takamatsu's claims.

I don't care what Draeger explained. He was rejected because he would not allow copies and pictures to be made of Makimono. IE...scrolls given to the successor of a ryuha.

Shihanke is not the same as being soke. A shihanke is a seniro instructor, not a head of an art. He had trained in the Kukishin ryu, but he was not the head of the art at any point.

Katori Shinto ryu and Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho have the Soke as the person that takes care of the religous ceremonies. The Shihan is the head of the martial side of the ryu. I will post the kazuu of *all* of the Kuki lines to disprove your point in a moment.

And a important point to point out is that all of these arts that trace themselves back to Takamatsu go no further than him. That is why I used the term "Takamatsu-den" instead of "Bujinkan." It is a FACT that not one of the people who currently claim soke status in an art from Takamatsu are recognized by the orginizations I mentioned. They all go back to Takamatsu and end.

Then please don't use terms like "Takamatsu den" if you don't understand the context of what it means. Genbukan, Jinenkan and Bujinkan all trace back to Takamatsu sensei. More specifically, *all* of Bujinkan traces back to Takamatsu sensei through Hatsumi sensei.

You might want to correct your verbage in the future. It would be more appropriate and correct for you to say, "It is MY OPINION that..."

The Hontai Takagi ryu is currently a member, as well as the Kukishin ryu. They both have documents backing up the claims that they are the true inheritors of that tradition. The Takamatsu- den has none.

*Wondering why I'm having to repeat myself*
There are multiple lines of Kukishin and Takagi ryu. We've already gone over that. Please read my previous posts more carefully.

Again- TAKAMATSU-DEN!!!! We all know Hatsumi sensei trained with Takamatsu Toshitsugu, the problem is that there is no proof to Takamatsu's claims of being a SOKE of any art, let alone the Togakure ryu. Toda sensei died years before Takamatsu was born!!!! That is just fact! Do you want to show me anything that disputes the fact that the guy who supposably taught Takamatsu ninjutsu died before he was born??????

Toda sensei died in 1909. Takamatsu sensei was born in 1887. Now, I must admit, I'm in no way a wiz at math...but........

Thank you for pointing out that Takamatsu was a senior instructor but never had the authority to name successors. Only the Soke has the right to do that. If Takamatsu was a shihanke, then he could not have made Hatsumi the soke.

Thank you for not reading clearly what I wrote. I stated that Hatsumi sensei's maki and densho were signed and stamped by the Soke of the Kuki family making him head of Kukishin ryu Happo Bikenjutsu. I did not say it was Takamatsu sensei, though Takamatsu sensei's signature is on the maki as well.

Who was a student of who??? It is interesting to see that Kaminaga, Ueno's succesor, teaches an art called Shinden Fudo ryu that has NOTHING to do with Takamatsu and that there seems to be no reference to the Shinden Fudo ryu in the Takamatsu den until AFTER the meeting between Ueno and Takamatsu.

Ueno Takashi sensei was a "student" of Takamatsu sensei. (You'll see in a moment)

Again TAKAMATSU-DEN!!! Akimoto was a student of Takamatsu and learned it from him. There is no proof prior to Takamatsu that the art existed.

That's odd...every historical documentation I've ever seen on Gikan ryu shows plenty before and after Takamatsu sensei. What exactly are your sources? Oh right...Bugei Ryuha Daijiten? Naw...it's in there too...

Come on Jay- I expect better of you. Stop being so nasty and twisting the facts. When I say Takamatsu- den I mean anything that came from Takamatsu. Turning around and saying that there are other students of Takamatsu that will back up Hatsumi's claims is beneath you. I know Hatsumi trained with Takamatsu. The thing is, the ninja claims he makes are based on Takamatsu and the trail go cold there.

I'm far from being nasty. Since these conversations started, you've had a serious chip on your shoulder. You lay blind claims and when people counter, you get upset. Not my problem. Get some books (I recommended a great site above), do some reading, then we can have an educated conversation about these things.

As far as the "Ninja claims"...I didn't realize THAT was the issue that seems to push your buttons. Let me break this down...if it's beyond your understand, so be it.

Gyokko ryu Kosshijutsu + Koto ryu Koppojutsu = Togakure ryu Ninpo Taijutsu.

Kuki line Soke kazuu:

Kukishinden Ryû Happo Bikenjutsu

Art – Kenjutsu

1. Izumo Kanja Yoshiteru
2. Izumo Koshiro Terunobu
3. Izumo Matsushiro Teruhide
4. Izumo Bungo Yoshiteru
5. Izumo Kanja Yoshitaka
6. Izumo Kanja Yoshiteru
7. Ohkuni Kisanata Kiyosumi
8. Tsutsumi Hakushi Mori Ritsuzan
9. Kuriyama Ukongen Nagafusa
10. Arima Kochinosuke Masayoshi
11. Ohkuni Kogenta Yukihisa
12. Kimura Ittosai Kanesuke
13. Arima Daisuke Taddaki
14. Kazama Shinkuro Hidechika
15. Ohkuni Kihei Shigenobu Genroku Era (1688)
16. Otone Sakon Yasumasa
17. Otone Genpachi Yoshihide
18. Otone Gengoro Yasuhira
19. Awaji Nyudo Chikayasu
20. Kurama Kotaro Genshin
21. Ohkuni Izumo Mori Shigehiro Kokwa Era (1844)
22. Sugino Juheita Kanemitsu
23. Hisahara Genjuro Yoshitane
24. Hisahara Kotaro Nobuyoshi
25. Ishitani Takeoi Masatsugu approx death 1905
26. Ishitani Matsutaro Takekage b. approx 1844, d. approx 1911
27. Takamatsu Toshitsugu b. 1887 – d. 1972
28. Hatsumi Masaaki b. 1931 – current

Tenshin Soden Kukamishin Ryû

Art – Bujutsu

1. Kukami (Kuki) Yasushimaru Kurando Takazane
2. Kojima Takanori (Betsuyo Saburo)
3. Ohuchi Minbu Yoshikane
4. Ohuchi Goromaru Katsushige
5. Hatakeyama SaburoByoe Masayoshi
6. Ohkuni Kawachi no Kami Yoshiie
7. Ohkuni Kihei Hisayoshi
8. Arima Daisuke Tadaaki
9. Arima Kawachi no Suke Masayoshi
10. Kuriyama Ukon
11. Hosoya Shinpachiro
12. Kimura Ittosai Nyosui
13. Kimura Getsui Yoshishige
14. Ohsumi Shima Masanobu
15. Eba (Iba) Toyotari
16. Ishitani Matsutaro Tadaaki
17. Iwami Nangaku Tomoharu
18a. Matsumoto Ihei
18b. Kuki Takaharu
18c. Matsubara Kahei
19. Tanaka Fumon


Tenshin Hyoho Kukishin Ryû Bôjutsu

1. Inaba Kaja Yoshitame
2. Kuki Yasushimaru Kurando
• Created Rokushakubojutsu, Kukishin Ryu 1338
3. Ohuchi Minbu Yoshikane (Minamoto)
• From the Kikuchi clan
4. Ohuchi Goromaru Katsushige
• Son of Ohuchi Yoshikane
5. Hatakeyama Saburo Masayoshi
• Follower of the Kikuchi
6. Ohkuni Kawachi no Mori Yoshiie
• Minamoto clan
7. Ohkuni Kihei Hisayoshi
• Younger brother of Ohkuni Yoshiie 5th Sôke
8. Arima Daisuke Tadaaki
• Samurai vassal of the Hosokawa clan
9. Arima Kawachi no Suke Masayoshi
• Servant of Hosokawa Masayoshi, son of Arima Daisuke
10. Kuriyama Ukon Chobo
• Samurai in the service of Maeda Toshiie, created Hanbô
11. Hosoya Shinpachiro Yukihisa
• Samurai in the Ayabe clan, but later left this clan
12. Kimura Ittosai Nyosui
• Former name was Shingoro, later changed to Muto Myusuiken
13. Kimura Getsui Yoshishige
• Adopted son of Kimura Ittosai. Pen name Musoken
14. Ohsumi Shima Masanobu
• Surname was Tachibana
15. Eba Toyotaro
• Adopted son of Eba Gunbei, originally came from Hanshu
16. Ishitani Matsutaro Tadaaki
• From Akashi
17. Takamatsu Toshitsugu
18. Kimura Masaji
19. Tanemura Shoto

Hon Tai Kukishin Ryû Bôjutsu

1. Ohkuni Kihei Shigenobu
2. Ohkuni Yakuburo Nobutoshi
3. Ohkuni Tarodayu Tadanobu
4. Ohkuni Kihei Yoshisada
5. Ohkuni Yozaemon Yoshisada
6. Nakayama Jinnai Sasahide
7. Ohkuni Takezaemon Hidenobu
8. Nakayama Kaemon Sadasaka
9. Ohkuni Kamaharu Hidetoshi
10. Yagi Ikugoro Hisayashi
11. Ishitani Takeo Masatsugu
12. Ishitani Matsutaro Takakage
13. Takamatsu Toshitsugu
14. Sato Knibei Kiyoaki
15. Tanemura Tsunehisa

Nakatomi Shinden Tenshin Hyoho

Art – Bujutsu

Takami Nusubi No Kami
Amenokoyame Nomi Koto
Shinso (Kamotsumioya)
Amenokoyame No Mikoto BC2000
Nakatomi family BC600
Enso (Totsumioya) Fujiwara Kamatari (Nakatomi) AD669
• Founder Amatsu Tatara
Fujiwara Hokke
Fujiwara Norizane (Kumano Betto)


1. Kukami (Kuki) Yasushimaru Kurano Takazane
2. Kukami Umanosuke Takayoshi
3. Kukami Soshin Takanori
4. Kukami Yamato No Kami Takamoto
5. Kukami Yamashiro No Kami Yasutaka
6. Kukami Kunaishosuke Sadataka
7. Kukami Kunaidayu Kiyotaka
8. Kukami Yogoro Sumitaka
9. Kukami Ohsumi No Kami Yoshitaka
10. Kukami Nagato No Kami Moritaka
11. Kukami Shima No Kami Yoshitaka
12. Kuki Ohsumi No Kami Takatsune
13. Kuki Nabezaburo Takayuki
14. Kuki Toyozen No Kami Takanao
15. Kuki Kawachi No Kami Takahiro
16. Kuki Shusuinomasa Takahide
17. Kuki Ise No Kami Takayoshi
18. Kuki Shinnosuke Takakyo
19. Kuki Shikibushosuke Takasada
20. Kuki Shikibushosuke Takaaki
21. Kuki Ohsumi No Kami Takasho
22. Kuki Shikibushosuke Takasato
23. Kuki Izumo No Kami Takatsudo
24. Kuki Ohsumi No Kami Takato
25. Kuki Ohsumi No Kami Takatomo
26. Kuki Takaharu


Kukishin Ryû (Chosui Kukishin Ryû)

Art Bo, Ken, Naginata, Shuriken, Kusarigama, Kenjutsu, Suijutsu, Taijutsu

1. Kuki Yakushimaru Kurando (Ryushin) Takasane
• Kuki name awarded by the Tenno Godaigo
2. Kuki Umanosuke Takayoshi
3. Kuki Soshin Takanori
4. Kuki Yamato no Kami Takamoto (Takatsugu)
• Former name was Kamo Goro - Ju 5th lower
5. Kuki Yamashiro no Kami Yasutaka (Ryuji)
• Lord of Shimada Castle - Ju 5th lower
6. Kuki Kunaishosuke Sadataka
• Pen name is Gensai - Ju 5th lower
7. Kuki Kunaidayu Kiyotaka
• Pen name is Kiyoaki - Ju 5th lower
8. Kuki Yogoro Sumitaka (Miyauchi Daisuke Joryu)
• Pen name is Kiyoshin - Ju 5th lower
9. Kuki Ohsumi no Kami Yoshitaka (Sumitaka)
• Lord of Toba castle, Pen name is Tsuneyasu - Ju 5th lower (possible founder of Kuki Suigun)
10. Kuki Nagato no Kami Moritaka
• Pen name is Zenko - Ju 5th lower (17th Century)
11. Kuki Shima no Kami Yoshitaka (Sadataka)
• Lord of the Sesshu Mita clan - Ju 5th lower (17th Century)
12. Kuki Ohsumi no Kami Takatsune (Takayoshi)
• Lord of Tanba Ayabe clan. - Ju 5th lower
13. Kuki Nabezaburo Takayuki (Ohsumi no Kami Takatsune)
• Member of the imperial household. - Ju 5th lower
14. Kuki Toyozen no Kami Takanao (Nagato no Kami Takano)
• Ju 5th lower
15. Kuki Kawachi no Kami Takahiro (Ohsumi no Kami Takahiro)
• Ju 5th lower
16. Kuki Shusuinomasa Takahide (Takasada)
• Ju 5th lower
17. Kuki Ise no Kami Takayoshi
• Ju 5th lower
18. Kuki Shinnosuke Takakyo (Takasato)
• Ju 5th lower
19. Kuki Shikibushosuke Takasada (Izumo no Kami Takanori)
• Ju 5th lower
20. Kuki Shikibushosuke Takaaki (Takauni)
• Ju 5th lower
21. Kuki Ohsumi no Kami Takasho (Takamoto)
• Ju 5th lower
22. Kuki Shikibushosuke Takasato (Yasutaka)
• Ju 5th lower
23. Kuki Izumo no Kami Takatsudo
• Ju 5th lower
24. Kuki Ohsumi no Kami Takato 1868
• After the restoration Ju 5th lower became Sei 3rd), lord of Tanba Ayabe clan
25. Kuki Ohsumi no Kami Takatomo\
• Sei 5th, Viscount
26. Kuki Takaharu
• Ju 3rd, Viscount, President of Kodo Senyokai, Died 1979

Kuki Tsuneo


Kukishin Ryû Chosui-ha (Kijin Chosui Ryû)

Art – Dakentaijutsu, Bojutsu, Jojutsu, Kenjutsu, Yawara, Naginata, Yari, Seikotsu

1. Nawa Shinzaburo Motonaga
2. Ohkuni Onigenta Kiyosada
3. Ohkuni Onimita Kiyosumi
4. Nawa Ohachiro Kunimitsu
5. Nawa Jiro Mitsuosa
6. Uchigawa Kenzaburo Kiyonaga
7. Unno Kosaburo Yoshihide
8. Makabe Gennosuke Kiyotaka
9. Arakawa Migoro Machika
10. Kamib Kotaro Yukishige
11. Urabe Sukune Kanesada (Founder of daken-jutsu)
12. Izumo Kansha Yoshihide
13. Otomo Kosaburo Takayuki
14. Otomo Sanshiro Takayoshi
15. Fujiwara Izumo-no-kami Yorinaga
16. Ise Danjo Yorimitsu
17. Samasuke Yoriyoshi
18. Atsuta Daiguji Masayoshi
19. Atsuta Daiguji Toshihiro
20. Takamatsu Saemon Masatoshi
21. Ouchi Kawachi-no-kami Toshihiro
22. Ohkuni Izumo-no-kami Takeyoshi
23. Inaba Kansha Masahide
24. Tomonai Taro Sumitaka
25. Takamatsu Daizaburo Tokitsugu
26. Araki Tamonnosuke Masasumi
27. Araki Muninsai (Araki Ryu)
28. Araki Tetsuhei Masataka
29. Ohkuni Onihira Shigenobu
30. Ohkuni Yakuro Nobutoshi
31. Ohkuni Taro Kottai Tadanobu
32. Ohkuni Onibeie Yoshisada
33. Nakayama Jinnai Sadahide [Sadayoshi]
34. Ohkuni Izumo-no-kami Hidesada
35. Ohkuni Kenji Hidetoshi
36. Ohkuni Shigeharu Hidemasa
37. Ishitani Matsutaro Takahiro
38. Takamatsu Toshitsugu
39. Ueno Takashi
40. Ueno Yoshiaki

Kaminaga Nariyoshi Kobayashi Masao

Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho

(Shihan Lineage)

1. Kuki Yasushimaru Kurando
• Created Rokushakubôjutsu, Kukishin Ryû 1338
2. Ohuchi Minbu Yoshikane (Minamoto)
• From the Kikuchi clan
3. Ohuchi Goromaru Katsushige
• Son of Ohuchi Yoshikane
4. Hatakeyama Saburo Masayoshi
• Follower of the Kikuchi
5. Ohkuni Kawachi no Mori Yoshiie
• Minamoto clan
6. Ohkuni Kihei Hisayoshi
• Younger brother of Ohkuni Yoshiie 5th Soke
7. Arima Daisuke Tadaaki
• Samurai vassal of the Hosokawa clan
8. Arima Kawachi no Suke Masayoshi
• Servant of Hosokawa Masayoshi, son of Arima Daisuke
9. Kuriyama Ukon Chobo
• Samurai in the service of Maeda Toshiie, created Hanbô
10. Hosoya Shinpachiro Yukihisa
• Samurai in the Ayabe clan, but later left this clan
11. Kimura Ittosai Nyosui
• Former name was Shingoro, later changed to Muto Myusuiken
12. Kimura Getsui Yoshishige
• Adopted son of Kimura Ittosai. Pen name is Musoken
13. Ohsumi Shima Masanobu
• Surname was Tachibana
14. Eba Toyotaro
• Adopted son of Eba Gunbei, originally came from Hanshu
15. Ishitani Matsutaro Tadaaki
• From Akashi
16. Iwami Sakunosuke Nangaku
• Bujutsu Shihan for the Kuki family, Founding chief with 26th Kukishin Ryu Soke of the Kodo Senyokai Shobukyoku, friend of Takamatsu Toshitsugu
17. Aizaki Masao
• Instructor at the Kodo Senyokai
18. Takatsuka Unshu Michitaka


Oh...before I forget. Hatsumi sensei began his bujutsu training under Ueno Takashi. He received Menkyo Kaiden in the following ryuha from Ueno sensei before ever training with Takamatsu sensei:

Shinto Tenshin-ryu Kenpo
Asayama Ichiden-ryu Heiho
Bokuden-ryu Jujutsu

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Originally posted by Jay Bell
I don't care what Draeger explained. He was rejected because he would not allow copies and pictures to be made of Makimono. IE...scrolls given to the successor of a ryuha.

According to who??? "I have heard" perhaps? Where you there? Have you ever met Draeger? The FACT is that Hatsumi is not a member of the two most highly regarded koryu orginizations. It can not be that he does not like joining orginizations. He joined that kenjutsu one. If he can't prove what he says then everyone has a right to treat him as someone who CAN'T prove what he says. You want anyone to take your claims seriously? Then don't run this game of, "Until you see our scrolls you can't say what we do is not true- and we are not going to show you anything."

Originally posted by Jay Bell
Katori Shinto ryu and Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho have the Soke as the person that takes care of the religous ceremonies. The Shihan is the head of the martial side of the ryu.

That is the way it is NOW. The soke of the Katori shinto ryu used to be involved in the teaching of the martial aspects, but the current guy has no interest. And Hatsumi claims to have inherited the sokeship of the Kukishinden ryu, not the shihanke title. You can check any book by Hatsumi to check that out for yourself.

Originally posted by Jay Bell
I will post the kazuu of *all* of the Kuki lines to disprove your point in a moment.

Yes you did, but the whole thing can be summed up with "Sensei sez." Care to try to find a source that doesn't trace back to the Takamatsu-den or prior to the Meiji period that can back up that list written up by Takamatsu?

Originally posted by Jay Bell
Then please don't use terms like "Takamatsu den" if you don't understand the context of what it means. Genbukan, Jinenkan and Bujinkan all trace back to Takamatsu sensei. More specifically, *all* of Bujinkan traces back to Takamatsu sensei through Hatsumi sensei.

Takamatsu-den means "Transmitted by Takamatsu." Any arts he claims to have taught to anyone is Takamatsu-den. That includes Akimoto, Ueno and the like. You don't speak Japanese do you? Well don't tell me the difinitions of Japanese words until you realize them yourself.

And I will say this again, none of the arts Takamatsu taught to anyone is accepted by the two orginizations that are the most respected in the area. Even if Hatsumi had information that he was not willing to show to anyone, it stands to reason that people like Sato Kinbei, Shoto Tanemura, and Ueno would have IF THEY HAD ANY PROOF THAT WHAT THEY WERE PASSED ON BY TAKAMATSU PRECEDED HIM!!!

Originally posted by Jay Bell
You might want to correct your verbage in the future. It would be more appropriate and correct for you to say, "It is MY OPINION that..."

Right back at you- until you find a tape showing you being there when Hatsumi was turned down for membership, the inner workings of the way the Katori Shinto ryu is run and all the other things.

Originally posted by Jay Bell
*Wondering why I'm having to repeat myself*
There are multiple lines of Kukishin and Takagi ryu. We've already gone over that. Please read my previous posts more carefully.

But aside from the Hontai yoshin ryu, Takagi ryu and Kukishin ryu all of the multiple lines come from Takamatsu and NONE of them have any proof to back up what they say. The lineages from Takamatsu claim to come from a guy named Ishitani Matsutaro and a guy named Mizutani down to Takamatsu. The lineages of the Hontai Yoshin, Takagi and Kukishin are pretty close to the Takamatsu den until Matsutaro. But there is no proof that Matsutaro passed the art to Takamatsu. The Hontai Yoshin, Takagi and Kukishin can point to certificates from Matsutaro to a guy named Kakuno. They have physical proof that Matsutaro made Kakuno his succesor and the Takamatsu-den can point to NOT A SINGLE BIT OF PHYSICAL EVIDENCE to back up the claim that Takamatsu was made head of the arts by Matsutaro.

Originally posted by Jay Bell
Toda sensei died in 1909. Takamatsu sensei was born in 1887. Now, I must admit, I'm in no way a wiz at math...but........

Nope, check your facts. And not with something that traces back to the Takamatsu-den. You might want to check with the second edition of the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten. After that the compiler got less confrontational and just transmitted things as the various groups wanted him to.
Toda was a sword instructor. If you check a book on famous swordsmen of the end of the Tokugawa shogunate you will find him listed, along with the correct date of his death.

Originally posted by Jay Bell
Thank you for not reading clearly what I wrote. I stated that Hatsumi sensei's maki and densho were signed and stamped by the Soke of the Kuki family making him head of Kukishin ryu Happo Bikenjutsu. I did not say it was Takamatsu sensei, though Takamatsu sensei's signature is on the maki as well.

I have not seen this, and only have your word. Did you see this yourself and were able to read it or is it, "I have heard" like you were trying to chastise me for?

Originally posted by Jay Bell
That's odd...every historical documentation I've ever seen on Gikan ryu shows plenty before and after Takamatsu sensei. What exactly are your sources? Oh right...Bugei Ryuha Daijiten? Naw...it's in there too...

Have you read the second edition? And where did the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten get its info- Hatsumi and Takamatsu!!!!

Do you have any collaberating evidence? Again "Sensei sez."

Originally posted by Jay Bell
I'm far from being nasty. Since these conversations started, you've had a serious chip on your shoulder. You lay blind claims and when people counter, you get upset. Not my problem. Get some books (I recommended a great site above), do some reading, then we can have an educated conversation about these things.

Right back at you. Start with a source on famous swordsmen of the end of the Tokugawa shogunate (in Japanese "Bakumatsu") and tell me what year it says Toda died.

Originally posted by Jay Bell
As far as the "Ninja claims"...I didn't realize THAT was the issue that seems to push your buttons. Let me break this down...if it's beyond your understand, so be it.

Gyokko ryu Kosshijutsu + Koto ryu Koppojutsu = Togakure ryu Ninpo Taijutsu.

That was the whole point. Everyone is claiming what Hatsumi says as evidence of what the ninja were. But there is enough evidence to cast his link to them in doubt so I was TRYING to ask for something to back up what Hatsumi says instead of blind acceptence and then all hell broke loose.

I did not come in here to trash the Bujinkan. I just tried to point out that people should not blindly trust what Hatsumi says unless backed up with collaberating evidence and I am being attacked for suggesting it.

Gyokko ryu, Koto ryu- where outside of sources that trace back to Takamatsu's word of mouth are these arts mentioned? Any historical documents prior to 1950? I'm waiting.......

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Ok,
I am getting sick of this thread drift.

The problems started when someone had problems with the idea that a modern day ninja would be involved in espionage and assasination. They tried to portray the ancient ninja as a bunch of fuedal era hippies oppressed by the evil goverment. They tried to counter the sources and facts I pointed out by a case of "Sensei sez." Since then we have been in a pissing contest over if you should trust what Hatsumi says without any proof to back it up vs every other credible source.

I will make you guys a deal. I will stop poking holes in your arts links to the past if you just stop trying to trump historical facts and sources with anything from Hatsumi. I think there is enough evidence out there so that any resonable person would question what Hatsumi says without supporting proof. But there will always be those that go ahead and drink the kool-aide if so ordered. You want to say Hatsumi's word should be trusted over any other source, I will continue to point out how the king has no clothes.

Let us instead look at what the ninja was. Here is a direct quote from an article written by Alexei Gorbalov run in the on line magazine "Ura and Omote." That magazine is run and edited by a Bujinkan member.

Different authors and different titles don’t mean different ways in researching such a complicated phenomenon like ninjutsu. All the “historians” (most of them don’t know Japanese language and have never seen neither historic chronicles nor ninjutsu treatises) tell the same version: the ninjas are representatives of “secret” clans (word “clan” by unknown reason is understood as “secret society”, not as “family”) based on esoteric spiritual teaching Shugendo (“way of obtaining the supernatural powers”), which is intended to bring harmony with the Universe. Shugendo followers were not supported by government’s benevolence and constantly were under attack. So, ninja clans had to develop a secret art of diversions, espionage and hand-to-hand combat, which later was named “ninjutsu”. Therefore, ninja clan is not a spy organization. It is society of researchers of highest enlightenment and finding a harmony with outer world.

But if we would study Japanese historical texts, classical literary texts, real ninjutsu treatises, and works of leading modern researchers of ninjutsu history - Yamaguchi Masayuki, Okuse Heishichiro, Nava Yumio and others - we will find a different image of ninja and ninjutsu. Here I want to quote from a XVIII century book “Titles of samurai’s families” (“Buke myomokusho”): “Shinobi-no mono execute different espionage work. Therefore they also are named kanja or choja. So, their service is to secretly penetrate to another provinces and find out the real situation in enemy camp, or by mixing with enemy to find out his weak points. Additionally in enemy camp they set fires, and as assassins kill people. These shinobi are used in many cases. They are also named mono-kiki, shinobi-metsuke. If from the first time their duties are not fixed, there are no tasks which they are not given.

As shinobi usually common people, “light-legs” (ashigaru), police guards (doshin), rappa, seppa and others are used. Near Kyoto in Iga province and in Koga [district of province] Omi there were many jizamurai, after Onin years (1467-1477) they organized their own bands (to) and fought during the day and during the night, they also stealed and robbed. Many of them became masters in theirs art of espionage (kancho-no jutsu), after this feudal lords (daimyo) of all clans began to hire such jijamurai. The usual practice was to hire them as spies (shinobi). And they were named Iga-mono - Men from Iga - and Koga-mono - Men from Koga” (translation from old japanese from: Koji ruien. Tokyo, 1969, v. 43, p.346).

Ok, if anyone wants to provide anything outside of the Takamatsu-den to dispute this I am willing to listen. Any attempts to pass off the Buke Myomokusho as part of a vast conspiracy by the evil samurai will be laughed at. The definition of the shinobi as the old Japanese knew it was not some black clad feudal era hippy, but rather as;

Shinobi-no mono execute different espionage work. Therefore they also are named kanja or choja. So, their service is to secretly penetrate to another provinces and find out the real situation in enemy camp, or by mixing with enemy to find out his weak points. Additionally in enemy camp they set fires, and as assassins kill people.

So anyone being a modern version of the ninja would also do roughly the same things.

 

[heretic888]

Shadow Hunter..... seriously, you crack me up.

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Originally posted by heretic888
Shadow Hunter..... seriously, you crack me up.

If you can't deal with the facts someone presents, try to dismiss and make fun of them.

 

[heretic888]

"Facts", huh?? To who, exactly?? All you have shown is your own subjective interpretation of things you probably have no experience of. Most, if not all, of your information comes from both a highly discredited article on Koryu.com (which, if you haven't figured out by now, was word of mouth bereft of any direct evidence) and the even more discredited article/self-interview by Mr. Mordine (which even a blind man can tell is blatantly self-promoting).

I personally wouldn't base any supposed "waterproof" case on internet rumors.... This may be a shock to you, but your opinion and "fact" are not necessarily the same thing.

 

[Cryozombie]

*Sigh*

Can't we all just get along???

This is only my poor uninformed OPINION, (Notice I said OPINION not FACT) but every time you have a "secret" organization the facts tend to get blurry... Are the masons REALLY a front for the Illuminati??? Do/Did the Mormons REALLY have a Secret society of assassins working for their Church??? (Those are rhetorical questions BTW, i dont really want the answers)

Can everyone here at least agree the "facts" point to the The Ninja of feudal japan as a "secret" organization that operated outside of the norm back then?

I have read from MANY sources even from some of the "Takamatsu-den" that the ninja DID engage in open warfare, and DID kill people. I think the media's depiction of the Ninja as brutal assassin's-for-hire is probably one of Soke Hatsumi's primary reason for saying that is NOT what they were about... If you were trying to preserve your art, regardless of what it was, and popular belief had every low life thug coming to your school wanting to learn to be the "perfect killing machine" wouldnt you discredit those beliefs in your art??? I know I would. Its my understanding that those beliefs are what had Ninjutsu outlawed in Feudal Japan... why risk something similar now...

Lets face it: "Soke Sez" and "I read somewhere" or "this former student claims" or "I know a guy" or "Well the Soke from THIS school sez" are all just about as credible as one another. It comes down to WHO'S story you will believe, and your own OPINION on which story is fact. It's like being the Principal and having two kids called into your office and "Bobby sez" Billy started the fight and "Billy Sez" Bobby did. And some of billys friends then say "Bobby Did" but some of Bobbys Friends heard that "Billy Did"... You just gotta decide who's account you wanna believe.

My two cents.

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Originally posted by heretic888
"Facts", huh?? To who, exactly?? All you have shown is your own subjective interpretation of things you probably have no experience of.

Jesus Christ!! Did you sleep through my last post where I quoted from an 18th century historical document called the Buke myomokusho????

What kind of an idiot are you? Who do you study with? What is your experience with the subject matter? You have been running your mouth about how I have been unwilling to give my name, but I am at least willing to give sources while you repeat the mantra "Sensei sez." And now you are dumb enough to say that all I have been doing is giving my "Subjective interpetation" right after I give a source in Japanese???? I feel like I am dealing with a two year old. What is your name and who is your Bujinkan instructor because I am sure that he would love to hear how you are destroying the reputation of the Bujinkan with your idiotic accusations.

Originally posted by heretic888
"Most, if not all, of your information comes from both a highly discredited article on Koryu.com (which, if you haven't figured out by now, was word of mouth bereft of any direct evidence) and the even more discredited article/self-interview by Mr. Mordine (which even a blind man can tell is blatantly self-promoting).

How is the Koryu.com article "Descredited?" Can you give me a source that does not trace back to the Takamatsu-den that states that Toda, Takamatsu's teacher, did NOT die before Takamatsu was born???? And did you not notice that the Gorbalov article was run in an internet magazine run by a Bujinkan member? Now I know you are not a Bujinkan member because you are doing so many stupid things while pretending to defend it.

Again I will say it. The historical source I quoted was not from Koryu.com, but from an article by Alexei Gorbalov run in a newsletter run by a Bujikan member. Now will you try to actually deal with the facts instead of trying to get people to dismiss them out of hand by demonizing the source??????

Originally posted by heretic888
"I personally wouldn't base any supposed "waterproof" case on internet rumors.... This may be a shock to you, but your opinion and "fact" are not necessarily the same thing.

Do you speak or read Japanese?? Have you ever been to Japan? What personal experience have you had other than internet rumor? And why are you not willing to deal with the definition of the ninja given in the historical source I listed??

Do yourself a favor, don't make the Bujinkan look worse than it already was. If you can't deal with what I say, get someone on these boards who can.

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Originally posted by Technopunk

I have read from MANY sources even from some of the "Takamatsu-den" that the ninja DID engage in open warfare, and DID kill people. I think the media's depiction of the Ninja as brutal assassin's-for-hire is probably one of Soke Hatsumi's primary reason for saying that is NOT what they were about...

Technopunk, you raise my opinion of the Bujinkan a bit. I never said that the ninja were assassin's-for-hire. But the fact that they were willing to sneak into a castle and assassinate a warlord is a matter of historical fact. It is a shame that you are less vocal that certain idiots who hide behind their computers and wallow in their ignorance.

:cheers:

 

[arnisador]

Please, keep the discussion polite and professional.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Originally posted by arnisador
Please, keep the discussion polite and professional.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

Fine, I can do that. Let us see if people like Heretic888 can. I have put out a historical document that backs up my position. I would like someone to try to deal with it instead of attacking me. Please give exact quotes and sources.

And yes, this means for anything from Hatsumi too. As Technopunk has so rightly pointed out, what Hatsumi has said backs up my side of this debate so far. People have been attrributing their vision of ninjas as black-clad- fuedal- age hippies to Hatsumi, yet they do not seem able to give exact quotes to what they say. Considering the plot of "Shinobi no Mono" which both Masaaki Hatsumi and Toshitsugu Takamatsu were advisors on, I really do not know how anyone with half a brain can say that the ninja did not engage in espionage and assassination. :shrug:

In fact, I am starting to suspect that Heretic888 might not be a member of the Bujinkan, but rather someone who hates it and is only pretending to defend it while making it look stupid by his actions. I want to hear who he trains with and see if he really is training or not. I have been asked to say who I am, it only seems fair that he show a good example and go first instead of hiding behind his computer. If he will not, then why should I? Como se dice "double standard?"

 

[Cryozombie]

Originally posted by Shadow Hunter
I never said that the ninja were assassin's-for-hire.

Absolutley, and I never said you did, I said the media portrays them this way.

 

[sojobow]

Fine, I can do that. Let us see if people like Heretic888 can. I have put out a historical document that backs up my position. I would like someone to try to deal with it instead of attacking me. Please give exact quotes and sources.

And yes, this means for anything from Hatsumi too.

This thread should be required reading for modern ninjitsu practitioners. sojobow mentions an opinion of the Korean connection or the special forces mix with modern ninjitsu and is crazy. Unbeknowence to me, the subject has been glossed over a year ago. Then, I find an article written by a Russian Ninja talking about a history. thanks guys for causing me to look further.:2xBird2:

 

[AaronLucia]

I think a good example of a Ninja would be Jason Bourne.

 

[Enson]

. thanks guys for causing me to look further.:2xBird2:

which post # has russia on it? just so i don't have to read every single post on this thread.

 

[George Kohler]

You have been running your mouth about how I have been unwilling to give my name, but I am at least willing to give sources while you repeat the mantra "Sensei sez."

Your name wouldn't be Corey Hunter, would it? From California and studies Hwarang Do?

 

[sojobow]

I think a good example of a Ninja would be Jason Bourne.

Actually, a very kind and extremely good MA'ist in Dallas Tx (I think) PM'ed me to watch the fight scene with the assassin in Bourne Identity because you will see an example of how to get behind an attacker. Yes, I agree the character Jason Bourne had elements of Ninjitsu in his character profile. Real nice apartment too.

 

[sojobow]

which post # has russia on it? just so i don't have to read every single post on this thread.

Evidently, you've misinterpreted my post. The reference to Russian/Russia is in regards to an article I recently found. It's not in the thread mentioned. I mention the thread because I was considered 'comedy' with everyone laughing because I said that there may be a Korean relationship in Japan's Ninjutsu. I posted the article regarding recent DNA findings in "New Implications..." thread. Then, yesturday, I find a whole thread regarding Korean relationships. If I can scan the article regarding russian martial arts history and it's references to Ninja in the territorie's history, I'll post it. I had only a base theory regarding the Chinese connection which started this comedy show. Now, I'm looking further and finding that other's out there see the same relationships. It was worth reading the entire thread (IMOO). Learned a lot.

They also discuss the topic regarding modern special forces which I thought belonged in the modern ninjitsu section.

 

[AaronLucia]

So ya..

Would the guerilla fighters in Iraq and Afghanistan be considered using 'Ninja' methods?