Buddhist theory of ninja origin

[Shogun]

Jim, why MUST we have a spiritual component? Says who? Why must the patterns that we see in other cultures have anything to do with Japan? Maybe they do sometimes, but why has differnet cultrues and nations turned out so differnet if we beleive that one size fits all and what happened to Christianity in Europe must be the same as Buddhism in Japan? Etc, etc, etc.

Understanding of native Culture? you should probably have that....
Religion? not neccesary.
In fact, the truth couldnt be further from that. If those saying religion must exist within something think they are right, they know very little to nothing. Shinto in particular had no beginning, no "outline", and no specific "guide" as to what a person is to do in life. why would it HAVE to be in Ninjutsu?


Ah, heck yes, I just got my Second degree MT black belt!!

 

[Don Roley]

Guys,
We have two moderators devoted solely to the traditional section in addition to all the folks above Kreth and me in the chain of command. I will not be moderating this thread (aside from splitting it off at the beggining because it went off course to the original thread) but others like Kreth will.

So I am not speaking as a moderator here. Having said that, the photos of the cat and such make me giggle, but let us try to debate this without making fun of anyone or making them feel silly.

Some would say that's my job. :uhohh:

 

[Shogun]

~Nods in agreement~

 

[Floating Egg]

I was just looking for an excuse to post that picture.

 

[Shinkengata]

I was just looking for an excuse to post that picture.

And i was looking for an excuse to post the word "ownage". hehe..

 

[ninjaJim]

Here's an example of Buddhist magic influencing some rulers in China. There are a few mentions of this happening in Japan but I'd have to scan several pages. This book should really be regarded as required reading anyway. It certainly helped me understand a lot of things that were mentioned in passing.

http://www.warbuddies.homestead.com/Shingon2.html

As I admitted ninjustsu began long before religion influenced it. The practitioners we should strive to be should be like those of the particular point in history were. (See my very first post) The ninja of this point in time were the finest examples in history. Before the spiritual aspect ninja were self serving technicians and not the great beings they were to become later.

The argument then becomes just what is/was a ninja?? To me the true term "ninja" began when they put their lives on the line for their beliefs and not just their families etc.

Jim

BTW... Ownage is not complete until "Roldog" owns me in Halo2!!! (Unlikely)

 

[Don Roley]

The practitioners we should strive to be should be like those of the particular point in history were.

Oh really???

Has Hatsumi said this?

And your scanned pages about esoteric stuff influencing rulers, can you tell me exactly how this has to do with the creation of the ninja? More specifically, you wrote in your first post;

The basic story of the ninja revolves around Buddhist "magic" and the need for leaders to control who possessed this magic.

Now, no one has debated that esoteric Buddhism was considered magic by some. But how does what you scanned have to do with how the leaders needed to control who possesed this magic? And thus the creation of the ninja. Or the idea that the ninja were oppressed religious minority that needed ninjutsu to survive?

 

[ninjaJim]

Hatsumi doesn't seem to be a simple minded holder of ancient technical means. I've never met him but have met people who have. On every account there was no doubt that he was the real thing and then some.

Hatsumi possesses what the ninja possessed at their finest hour and it is on display for all to see IF they can see it. He loves and esteems what he has because it is more than a mere collection of techniques and history. It would have been easier for him to just learn the physical aspect of the art but Takamatsu knew that he was "the one".

Honestly, you'd have to read the book to see what I'm getting at. I feel bad enough scanning copyrighted material as it is.


Reiterating what has already been said a few times...



Ninja and their art existed before religious influences. Ninja that were truly great beings existed in a time just before they defended their faith. One would never put their life at risk for religion unless they believed in it.



The question is what should we choose to emulate? Should we try to emulate Hatsumi or should try to pick up a few good pointers from a lesser person? Everyone is free to do what they like but hopefully they will aspire to be the best they can be.

Oh yeah. The latest avitar is of me when I was six months into training. (18 yrs old/18 yrs ago) Better ichimonji photo here.

Show me a quote where Hatsumi says that a ninja is/was only a simple technician.

Jim

aka "rubberman" (Dojo term applied to the most flexible person in the school.)

 

[ninjaJim]

Understanding of native Culture? you should probably have that....
Religion? not neccesary.
In fact, the truth couldnt be further from that. If those saying religion must exist within something think they are right, they know very little to nothing. Shinto in particular had no beginning, no "outline", and no specific "guide" as to what a person is to do in life. why would it HAVE to be in Ninjutsu?


Ah, heck yes, I just got my Second degree MT black belt!!

Just let me know when your fifth dan test is like Hatsumi's.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

1. Jim, you are speaking with people who have met Hatsumi sensei in person and had conversations with him.

2. Jim, you're still not being kind to your knee.

3. Jim, your rank is in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, not Togakure ryu ninjutsu.

4. Jim, if you check out some of the more reliable sources as opposed to questionable 80's books by Stephen Hayes, you'll find that the old theories that the ninja were a secret society of oppressed outcasts can safely be said to be pure BS, and that the more historically accurate description is that of regular bushi who had specialized in what was then seen as unconventional methods of warfare.

5. This has been a lousy day.

www.kabuto.nu/ninjitsu

 

[Shogun]

a really easy (albeit slightly different) comparision to get off the "poor farmer ninja" kick is to think of them as today's special forces or even CIA. warriors with cool gadgets.

even Ewok is a closer justification.

Just let me know when your fifth dan test is like Hatsumi's.

Pedro sauer's blue belt test (if you pass) concludes with a cross choke and hip toss by everyone in the school. BTW, he has 250 full time students.

 

[ninjaJim]

1. Jim, you are speaking with people who have met Hatsumi sensei in person and had conversations with him.

2. Jim, you're still not being kind to your knee.

3. Jim, your rank is in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, not Togakure ryu ninjutsu.

4. Jim, if you check out some of the more reliable sources as opposed to questionable 80's books by Stephen Hayes, you'll find that the old theories that the ninja were a secret society of oppressed outcasts can safely be said to be pure BS, and that the more historically accurate description is that of regular bushi who had specialized in what was then seen as unconventional methods of warfare.

5. This has been a lousy day.

www.kabuto.nu/ninjitsu

5. Why has this been a lousy day?

4. I'm not just talking about what ninja were I'm talking about what they are. With Hatsumi being used as a ruler it would seem that the spiritual ninja is the standard. The "ideal" ninja as something to aspire to be. Anyone can just learn techniques, methods and skills but to wear the name ninja is more than that.

You could also say that anyone who possessed the non spiritual skills they had could be one BUT we are talking about ideals.

You are right! The people called ninja were just as you say they were. The difference is what one group calls a ninja today is not the same as others. As I said before the statement was a synopsis. My wording was not quite right and someone took me literally and ran with it. This was not the intent of the post. The thing I really wanted to discuss was today's training.

3. Just broke out the old rank certificate. It says Ninpo Taijutsu. I used Togakure as something to show that I was from a different school and a different time. The current training is definitely not like the "old days". When I was training in the old days (1989) there was evidence that we were in either the second or third version of this type of training. The evidence consisted of students from earlier years. Yes I was Bujinkan but there was no "Budo" at that time hence the use of Togakure. Sorry.

2. Ah! In that day knee directly over toe was the proper posture. This was even stated in one of the Shadows of Iga monthlys. I was told that my Taijutsu was impeccable. Understand I'm not bragging but merely stating that things are different.

1. My instructor had not only talked to him he lent himself for use as a temporary ragdoll. His pinkie finger was actually bent from an over the head throw which involved it as the grasping point. Bent! Really, I think he was joking about the bent part but one of our fellow students was there and saw the throw happen. (Comparing left and right did show that it was bent) His finger wasn't feeling right after the incident.

Six months before I left training Mark had made his first pilgrimage to Japan which included another visit with Hatsumi. Prior to studying Ninjutsu Mark was a student of many arts. Suffice to say he'd own just about any block he walked on. People talk about respecting ones teacher, well he definitely deserved it.

 

[Kizaru]

3. Just broke out the old rank certificate. It says Ninpo Taijutsu. I used Togakure as something to show that I was from a different school ...

Please click on this link, and go to the section of the FAQ marked "Who is authorized to teach?". http://www.jigokudojo.com/

This shows an official certification from Hatsumi sensei. The license that you have displayed only says "Jimu Dotei" (your name I guess) in katakana and "kyou" (license) in kanji. While it may say "Ninpo Taijutsu Nanakyu..." in Roman letters, it nowhere has the name(s) of the ryu, the date, or your rank in Japanese. More importantly, it has neither the Bujinkan seal NOR Hatsumi soke's name and official seal.

4. I'm not just talking about what ninja were I'm talking about what they are....The "ideal" ninja as something to aspire to be....to wear the name ninja is more than that....

From reading that, some here may be under the impression that you want to be a "ninja". This may be a bit unsettling to some as there are neither "samurai" nor "ninja" in today's society. I often wonder if 300 years from now, people will practice techniques from the US Army's infantry manual and live by the "Ranger Creed" and want to call themselves "Airborne Rangers" having never been in a US Army unit or fallen from a C-130.

Six months before I left training Mark had made his first pilgrimage to Japan which included time with Hatsumi.....

So from that statement, I suppose we can assume that you are no longer training, correct?

 

[ninjaJim]

C'mon Don I'm speaking in general terms. Using the words "When I grow up I wanna be a ninja" is kid stuff.
Please don't try to hang me for use of words. Ideas yes, exact words in this environment no.

I'll be honest. The reason I started posting is because it troubles me that ninjutsu training will soon be posted next to spinning in your local newspaper. (You know what I'm talking about) Even worse, I see that everyone is walking around with impressive titles which are clearly manufactured. I thought that the politics of the art would have gone away but instead they got worse. Now it's ruined for everyone. (I'm talking about the chance to do the esoteric aspect) Travelling to Japan may not even guarantee the training you're entitled to. I totally respect anyone who makes the journey but even that path has been beaten down.

And you wonder why I left.

 

[Kizaru]

Statement #1

After three and a half years I was 6th kyu. This was when I left, after having fully realized the politics, business and exoteric/esoteric nature of the art purported to be Ninjutsu.

Statement #2

Oh yeah. The latest avitar is of me when I was six months into training. (18 yrs old/18 yrs ago) ....

Statement #3

I'm 36 now and have had a lot of time to retrospectively study issues I could barely grasp when I was 19.

Jim, according to your three statements above, I think we can understand that

1. You began training at age 18.
2. After 3 1/2 years of training, you stopped training at age 21 or 22. (18 + 3.5 = 21.5)
3. You are now 36 years old. You stopped training at age 21 or 22, so you've been away from training for about 15 or 16 years. (36 - 21 = 15)

With that short amount of experience and with such a long hiatus from training, some people here on this board may have a difficult time accepting your assertions as believable, and may question your motives for expressing your opinions here. In the past 15 or 16 years, alot of people have visited Japan to train, and some of us have actually moved here, learned the language and started families. While we all commend your enthusiasm, it may be in your best interest to return to training at a qualified school, or at least check some of your facts more thoroughly before vaunting your theories in a public forum.

 

[Cryozombie]

How come you guys who moved there wont mail me a nice japanese girl?

Thanks a lot.

Jim... You appear to have inadvertantly called Kizaru "Don"... Kizaru and Don are two different people. Dont get confused cuz they are both bustin' your chops from across the water...

 

[Cryozombie]

And BTW Ninjajim...

Don't take it too hard, its still just a matter after all this time of struggling with legitimacy in the face of Fakirs and Frauds like Kim, Dux, Tew, 20 year old American Ninja Soke Masters, Etc etc etc...

The guys who are there in the "thick of it" so to speak, take that legitimacy very seriously... and it's difficult to blame them.

 

[ninjaJim]

I never meant to get in a discussion about the origins of ninjutsu. I freely admit that my most recent memory of anything related to the art was the book on Shingon. It did shed a lot of light on things mentioned in passing.

As you are now so was I then. Although I couldn't read Japanese I had a decent vocabulary when it came to the art. At the time, SKH history WAS the source. I'm glad to see that you realized where I'm coming from.

What I did want to discuss was today's training environment. I'm greatly troubled by the fact that there is something out there that I'd like to have but probably can't. Even back in "the day" there were a lot of hoops to jump through but now...

At least I can say that what I did do did some good.

 

[Kizaru]

I'll be honest. The reason I started posting is because it troubles me that ninjutsu training will soon be posted next to spinning in your local newspaper. (You know what I'm talking about)

Actually, I don't know what you're talking about. I don't see "ninjutsu training" being posted in my local newspaper anytime soon.

Even worse, I see that everyone is walking around with impressive titles which are clearly manufactured.

That's their own responsibilty. They can do their best to live up to them, stick them in the closet or advertise them all over the place. Personal responsibilty.

I thought that the politics of the art would have gone away but instead they got worse.

Maybe the "politics" are supposed to be a part of the training environment.
I do recall someone older and wiser than me saying that, "People who study Budo must have an understanding for war, economics and politics".

Now it's ruined for everyone.

Is it?

(I'm talking about the chance to do the esoteric aspect)

Maybe you should enroll in a temple somewhere or try some yoga classes. You'd probably have a better chance finding what you're looking for there rather than by stirring things up on an internet forum.

Travelling to Japan may not even guarantee the training you're entitled to.

ENTITLED TO?!?! The world, Japan and the Bujinkan don't owe anyone anything. Personal responsibility.

And you wonder why I left.

There's an old saying, "Lead, follow, or get out of the way".
I don't wonder why you left at all.

 

[ninjaJim]

Jim... You appear to have inadvertantly called Kizaru "Don"... Kizaru and Don are two different people. Dont get confused cuz they are both bustin' your chops from across the water...

Sorry man Don & K. Since I saw the "Roley creed" at the bottom I just thought it was the same person using a dif sign in.