Ninjas still around today?

[tonbo]

Uh....everything that I have said regarding ninja, singular or plural, is not meant to be taken as anything other than statments made with tongue planted firmly in my cheek.

It's called humor, folks, and although my sense of humor may not always come across, I don't mean to get wrapped up in an argument about "modern" ninja, samurai, or how ninja compare to the special forces.

I was having a good time with this thread, nothing more. Ninja are ninja (or *were*, depending on your side of the argument), and special forces are special forces. Nothing *exactly* equates, obviously, as there are always differences in circumstances, era, blah, blah, blah.

Sheesh. Never mind.....I'll just go get a ninja costume, and some of those videos online, and start hiring myself out.....

Peace and all that--

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Tonbo: You have offended the Ninjas! They will find you and kill you! You can't run, you can't hide. Bullet-proof vests can stop Shuriken though.

 

[The Psycho Guy]

I think it is to good cause if we had ninja's still we could have hired them to get Bin Ladden

If we knew where he was, I'm pretty sure any assassination technique would work...doesn't have to be a ninjutsu one. And ninja were not really "assassins." But anyway, assassination is forbidden by the Geneva Convention, so I guess we won't anyway (though I guess a sniper may work).

but just my opinion do you think with all this high tech stuff Ninja escapes and surprise will still work with things like cameras alarms and more

Probably not...the techniques were made for Feudal Japan, not modern day America (or wherever you live). One would have to learn modern techniques and security systems if one wanted to learn how to do that stuff.

Yes, Virginia, ninjas do still exist. So do samurai.

How do samurai exist?

I'll say this: spec ops gots cool toys.......but traditional ninja toys have a bit more "romance" to 'em. Guns are just so....impersonal.

I'd say that any modern warrior would approach gunmanship training as the traditional warrior approached swordsmanship training. In other words, MAKE it (the guns) personal.

As for ninja being Special Forces...I do agree to an extent, but for the most part, what heretic888 said.

I'm an aspiring modern ninja and I use guns.

Me too! A quick question though...what do you think one would have to learn or do to qualify as a "ninja" nowadays?

A truly trained Samurai in the frontal confrontation would shred the Shinobi down pretty easily.

Like with the Special Forces and ninja comparison, it probably depends on the individual, but I'm of the opinion (personally) that it would be the other way around, in most cases.

And...samurai DO still exist. If you don't think so, you need to visit Japan.

Again, just wondering, how exactly do samurai exist if their class was taken out of Japan's system?

Bullet-proof vests can stop Shuriken though.

Not all the time. My friend Mark once thought that, and the ninjas threw a shuriken and it cut his head off!!!

 

[heretic888]

Uh....everything that I have said regarding ninja, singular or plural, is not meant to be taken as anything other than statments made with tongue planted firmly in my cheek.

Hmmm..... does that make it any harder to type??

It's called humor, folks, and although my sense of humor may not always come across, I don't mean to get wrapped up in an argument about "modern" ninja, samurai, or how ninja compare to the special forces.

Well then, I guess it sucks to be you!

I was having a good time with this thread, nothing more. Ninja are ninja (or *were*, depending on your side of the argument), and special forces are special forces. Nothing *exactly* equates, obviously, as there are always differences in circumstances, era, blah, blah, blah.

Fo'shizzle.

Sheesh. Never mind.....I'll just go get a ninja costume, and some of those videos online, and start hiring myself out.....

Have fun with that. Be sure to give Mr. Hunter a good run for his 'hard-earned' money.

Peace and all that--

WAR!!!!!!

If we knew where he was, I'm pretty sure any assassination technique would work...doesn't have to be a ninjutsu one.

Yup.

And ninja were not really "assassins."

Oh, care to elaborate?? (That's what this thread was originally about anyways, I believe...)

But anyway, assassination is forbidden by the Geneva Convention, so I guess we won't anyway (though I guess a sniper may work).

Yeah, and the US is such a stringent follower of international law.

Heh. Ok, that was a cheap shot and not exactly that truthful either (I'm American, by the way). But still, I see nothing wrong with getting a little 'dirty' to take out a maniac like Bin Laden......

Probably not...the techniques were made for Feudal Japan, not modern day America (or wherever you live). One would have to learn modern techniques and security systems if one wanted to learn how to do that stuff.

Ditto. Probably the funniest stereotype about the 'ninja' is that if they were still in the black ops game that they would be using 500 year old technologies against things like infrared detectors and the like. Please. They used state of the art back then and they would have used it now (thankfully, however, there is no longer a need for 'ninja' to involve themselves in such activities).

How do samurai exist?

They don't. The samurai were nothing but a social caste. All castes were officially abolished with the Meiji Restoration (and even moreso with the American occupation). 'Bushido', per se, didn't even exist in its commonly understood form until the Tokugawa era. I think most of the modern ideas about both 'samurai' and 'ninja' are little more than romantic daydreaming from the Meiji Era literature.

I'd say that any modern warrior would approach gunmanship training as the traditional warrior approached swordsmanship training. In other words, MAKE it (the guns) personal.

Ditto. Plus, guns can be fun (heh heh heh).

As for ninja being Special Forces...I do agree to an extent, but for the most part, what heretic888 said.

Woo hoo!! Yay for me!

Me too! A quick question though...what do you think one would have to learn or do to qualify as a "ninja" nowadays?

I seem to recall a certain quote from Hatsumi-soke that has been mentioned before.

Like with the Special Forces and ninja comparison, it probably depends on the individual, but I'm of the opinion (personally) that it would be the other way around, in most cases.

Ditto again.

Again, just wondering, how exactly do samurai exist if their class was taken out of Japan's system?

Good question.

Not all the time. My friend Mark once thought that, and the ninjas threw a shuriken and it cut his head off!!!

Psssh. That's nothing a little ninjer magik can't fix. *starts chanting....'there is no spoon, there is no spoon'*

 

[tonbo]

Tonbo: You have offended the Ninjas! They will find you and kill you! You can't run, you can't hide. Bullet-proof vests can stop Shuriken though.

MAN!! It's bad enough that I have Master Sho Kosugi out after me......now I have offended "the Ninjas"!!

I guess that I should hide when working at NinjaBurger, now.....no, wait, they will still find me.

Dang......there is just no way to stay out of trouble when it comes to ninja.

Time to commit seppuku and save what honor I can!!

:rofl: :asian:

Peace --

 

[Bujingodai]

Wow this thread is going nowhere. What was the point again?

 

[heretic888]

Wow this thread is going nowhere. What was the point again?

Ummmm...... pissing each other off??

 

[Bujingodai]

OH I was just making sure of that.

I for one totally agree that the "Ninja" were not just assasins. I hate the image that most have of the art. I also think that most that study the art think that the Ninja could create magic powder out of their asses, most were poorly trained operatives unfortunatly. But some were really incredible. Not all of them had the baffling knowledge of everything.

But in my opinion. Ninjutsu still incorperates more than any other art on the planet. IMO of course. I have yet to find arts that study water combat, tolerance exercises, practice in stealth etc etc.
Gotto say that I love doing it.

 

[heretic888]

OH I was just making sure of that.

Heh.

I for one totally agree that the "Ninja" were not just assasins. I hate the image that most have of the art.

Not that I am disagreeing with you, but how would you personally characterize the "ninja" then???

I also think that most that study the art think that the Ninja could create magic powder out of their asses, most were poorly trained operatives unfortunatly.

This I would have to disagree with. The Ninja families, unlike many Daimyo, did not have scores upon scores of soldiers and operatives to hurl into danger. In addition, they were extremely limited in terms of economic and technological resources (although some of the gadgets and gimmicks they came up with were pure genius).

Although we can never really know for sure (due to the lack of historical documentation), my guess is that each individual Ninja had to be afforded very in-depth training (and were most likely specialists of some ilk, although Ninjutsu itself is not a specializationn art). Very simply, the Ninja families just could not afford to have most of their operatives being 'poorly trained'.

But some were really incredible. Not all of them had the baffling knowledge of everything.

This I would agree with.

But in my opinion. Ninjutsu still incorperates more than any other art on the planet. IMO of course.

Of course.

I have yet to find arts that study water combat, tolerance exercises, practice in stealth etc etc.

Tolerance exercises?? Care to elaborate??? (I have the impression that 'body hardening' exercises are generally avoided in Ninpo circles, for good reason...)

Gotto say that I love doing it.

Yup.

 

[Bujingodai]

As for the school levels attained, well to be honest the Daimyo would have more $$$ so to speak to have them trained. All they did was train.
But that we can agree to disagree with.
The Ninja were assasin, messenger etc etc. I just meant they were not all assasin.
As for conditioning. Well here in Canada we have lots of snow, in the winter we may take a snow walk to work on the cold tolerance. This was something my old Shidoshi used to do. It was fun and your feet felt great afterwards.

And I would never change the art that I do.

 

[heretic888]

As for the school levels attained, well to be honest the Daimyo would have more $$$ so to speak to have them trained.

Money wouldn't necessarily have anything to do with quality training. Generally speaking, large militaristic organizations with great amounts of economic resources tend to devote said resources on technologies, not on training and improving their personnel. Of course, it really comes down to the individual clan, ryuha, and person.

I personally am of the conviction that, by necessity, the ninja clans could not afford to send 'poorly trained' agents out into the field. They were so few in number and so short on resources that they simply could not allow such consequences to occur. Besides, on a personal note, I'd take Ninja no Taijutsu over conventional Samurai Bujutsu anyday of the week.

In reality though, we can never really know, as there aren't exactly any historical records documenting this stuff.

All they did was train.

Not necessarily. Bushi was a social position. To be a 'samurai' all one had to do was be born into the caste. You did not necessarily have to follow 'bushido' or receive any bugei training (although most probably did).

Besides, I sincerely doubt that all they did was train in the first place. Unlike the ninja families, the samurai had certain social priorities and responsibilities that would interfere with their training. In any event, training more and training harder doesn't necessarily mean superior combat ability. Training better (quality over quantity) or training smarter would probably be the best approach to take (something I think the Ninja probably had as an advantage over the often-treated-as-cannon fodder Samurai).

But that we can agree to disagree with.

Yup.

The Ninja were assasin, messenger etc etc. I just meant they were not all assasin.

Personally, I have been given the impression that first and foremost the Ninja was a gatherer (and interpreter) of intelligence and information. After all, knowledge is power. Although... desperate times call for desperate measures (and this includes assassinations).

As for conditioning. Well here in Canada we have lots of snow, in the winter we may take a snow walk to work on the cold tolerance. This was something my old Shidoshi used to do. It was fun and your feet felt great afterwards.

Ah, I see. That sounds more like endurance training that straight-out 'body hardening' though. Very interesting.

Laterz.

 

[Cryozombie]

Originally posted by Bujingodai

But in my opinion. Ninjutsu still incorperates more than any other art on the planet. IMO of course. I have yet to find arts that study water combat, tolerance exercises, practice in stealth etc etc.
Gotto say that I love doing it.

Not to mention First Aid, Wilderness Survial, Rope Use, Heck, Modern Ninjas are like Grown Up Boy Scouts with Katanas! We just don't sew as many pacthes on our uniforms...

 

[phlux]

Originally posted by tonbo
Well said!!!

I disagree... and I have a problem with this logic. First of all lets see what is true about this statement;

There certainly are some very important aspects of Ninpo/Ninjitsu/Taijutsu etc that are trained and mastered within the realm of Special Ops. There are Techniques that are analyzed, taught and mastered by these folks. Some of them even get to a level of understanding the underlying principles behind the techniques.

Yes, special ops groups are tough people - but they are not the modern ninja.

The reason is that there is so much more to what makes a "Ninja"..... Special Ops forces are a gverment agency that is used for missions that are of a national interest and may or may not actually be just and honorable.

The study of the arts that make up ninjitsu go well beyond just the techniques that make you an efficient killing machine for the interests of your governement and occasionally your nation.

The principles studied are universal principles of movement and mastering your awareness and abilities. The Ninja is merely one who is in full control of his reality - and is in command of any situation that arises because they have trained such that they understand one fundamental permanence - everything changes. The ability to understand change and flow - and adapt to new information instantly while maintaining your center of self is what a Ninja is.

A Ninja is a Human - the study of Taijutsu/Ninpo etc is the study of being a better Human being.

The Special Ops and other military oraganizations are practitioners of the techniques of the Ninja - not the principles. they are not taught the deeper teachings.

Just because they wear black, are efficient killing machines and have cool tech - they are not Ninja. Read Hatsumi's works to get more insight into what the philosophy on Ninja truely is.

 

[Pervaz]

Just to add

I agree with Phlux and would even say that the "ninjas" of old were not special ops in the sense that they were controlled by the government - they were fightin for lives due to religous intollerence (yambushi) and their alligence to a dynamo. Clans would ensure that they were not abused for their skills hence there was a heirachical structure.

P

 

[Bujingodai]

Daimyo = Dynamo ??

 

[andurilking2]

...

 

[progressivetactics]

1 thing is for sure.....they ninja schools were so good at teaching stealth and concellment, you cant find a school around anymore!

 

[Bujingodai]

Wow how ironic, I was just on your website LOL, it's nice.

Really do you think it hard to find a school. They are littered all over if you ask me. I know of 4 or 5 in MI.

check out http://unv.aimoo.com

 

[Pyros]

Originally posted by progressivetactics
1 thing is for sure.....they ninja schools were so good at teaching stealth and concellment, you cant find a school around anymore!

I think the few stealth methods I've seen taught in the Bujinkan curriculum are excellent. Just frustrates me that one needs to achieve such a high rank and personal relationship with Soke to get any such training.

And about comparing ninja-specOps: yes, just read books like Ninpo-Wisdom For Life by Hatsumi, ninjutsu involves a deep philosophy about becoming a winner in personal and emotional life. A "true ninja" is a person who shows his skills in personal life not on battlefield. And that is not something the specOps teach their recruits. At least it is not the "ultimate aim" of them. C'mon, can you really say that the NAVY teaches new SEALS for the primary reason of making them enlightened human beings who live a fulfilling personal life - as the primary goal? Nope. But go to a Bujinkan/Genbukan dojo and that is the primary goal. And it is of any true ninjutsu legacy. Stealth and armoury are but tools - and a ninja must prevail even when these tools are not available.

 

[progressivetactics]

thanks bujingodai.
How did you come across my site? This forum?

I have some friends that just moved back to Ontario from Toronto where they had a very successful school, who have a karate club there. It is an expansion of his fathers. Lamont Kersey is the father, the son/wife team are Brandon and Krista Scherer. Are you familiar with either of them? Lamont's school was "Mr Kersey Karate School" and it was right over the bridge from Detroit. I don't know where in Ontario Brandon and Krista opened up.