Ninjas still around today?

[tonbo]

What did I get myself into, here?

Okay, yeah, the points are all well taken. I never meant to indicate that SpecOps and Ninja were on a one-to-one basis. Just that they were *similar*. There are a LOT of factors that don't allow the two to be compared point by point, but, well.....that's 'cuz they're two different things, right?

My brother was a Ranger, and, for a while, a martial artist. I would fully agree that he was not taught *any* of the "enlightenment" philosophy when he was a Ranger--just how to do his job. Perhaps that is how historical Ninja were as well; despite what Master Hatsumi may or may not say, we don't *know* for sure in every situation. At any rate, today's Ninja are taught skills with the intent to help them better themselves. That might run counter to someone in history, who was taught assassination techniques. I mean, really....if you were learning assassination, and to be an effective spy/assassin, do you really want to have a question on the morality of your actions while you are on a mission?

Okay, yes, the points are taken. Today's Ninja are *similar* to, but not *exactly*, SpecOps guys, and vice versa. You want the military way of doing things, you got SpecOps. You want to learn more *life skills*, you go the Ninja route.

Oy. Makes my head hurt. Besides, I don't need to tick off any more of those freaking Ninja.....I already have enough of them lurking around my house.

They do keep the salesmen away, though.



Peace--

 

[heretic888]

Okay, yeah, the points are all well taken. I never meant to indicate that SpecOps and Ninja were on a one-to-one basis. Just that they were *similar*.

They are *similar* in superficial commonalities only. Just because the "arts of sneakiness" are learned by both groups does not mean they really have anything else in common, or that they are counterparts of their respective cultures.

My brother was a Ranger, and, for a while, a martial artist. I would fully agree that he was not taught *any* of the "enlightenment" philosophy when he was a Ranger--just how to do his job. Perhaps that is how historical Ninja were as well; despite what Master Hatsumi may or may not say, we don't *know* for sure in every situation.

Be that as it may, Hatsumi-soke is THE foremost historical authority on the ninja in the world. If anyone would know, it would be him (by the way, I don't count people that have read up on Tokugawa and Meiji fiction as 'historical authorities'. Fiction is fiction, and history is history).

At any rate, today's Ninja are taught skills with the intent to help them better themselves. That might run counter to someone in history, who was taught assassination techniques.

And you know this how?? Honestly, in all history, the number of accounts of "ninja assassinations" you could probably count on one hand, so what makes you think ninja were commonly trained in "assassination techniques"??

Besides, any reading of the early chapters of the Bansenshukai sure gives the impression that "bettering yourself" was pretty damn important to the feudal Ninja as well. It should also be remembered that the earliest founders and 'jonin' of the Ninja ryuha were doshi ('moralists'), according to Hatsumi-soke's records anyway.

I mean, really....if you were learning assassination, and to be an effective spy/assassin, do you really want to have a question on the morality of your actions while you are on a mission?

That assumes a rather simplistic, Confucian-like, black-and-white view on morality. The Ninja were, mostly likely, of a more Zen or Taoist view on ethics.

Laterz.

 

[tonbo]

Heretic, you make some very good points.

The simple fact is, I know very little about "real" Ninja. I have been a product of the media image of "Ninjas" and of their history.

I have never read anything by Steven Hayes, Hatsumi-soke, or anyone who has any historical insight into either Ninja or Ninjitsu.

I don't believe that Ninja, historical or modern, were imbued with any magical abilities; however, I do believe that they were highly trained and were probably very good at what they did. However, I don't know what they did, specifically, and I don't know how they felt about it. I don't know what their philosophy of life was, whether it varied from clan to clan, or if they even *had* one.

I also don't know whether they were, as has been postulated in the past, the flip side of the coin from the samurai. Nor do I care, really.

At some point in my future, I will probably get a book or two by Hatsumi-soke and actually do a little more research. I would agree that he is the foremost authority on matters Ninja; however, having only one reputable source makes things very difficult. If he were to make up stories, or to color/slant things a certain way, who would be there to challenge?

My position in this thread has gone from something a bit more tongue in cheek to something a little more defensive, and it shouldn't . As I have mentioned, I come from a position of relative ignorance, which I will readily admit. I have nothing against practitioners of Ninjitsu, as long as they have not learned all their techniques from watching any movies they can get their hands on.

What I boil all this down to is this: Peace, brother, peace. I admit my ignorance and apologize if I have slammed anything you feel strongly about. My lack of knowledge on this subject doesn't allow me any right to come in and make any assumptions or broad statements. So for anything that I have said that has been out of place, I apologize.

Now, can you get these damn Ninja out of the woods behind my house?

Thank you for all the points you made.

:asian:

Peace--

 

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

Oh, nevermind. Nothing's there. Must have been a very SKILLED Ninja.

:rofl:

Seriously, aren't most ninja just "neo-ninja" in that the art is re-created, but not passed down?

 

[Touch Of Death]

I think its important to know who ninjas were rather than what they knew. Ninja from what I understand meant people who were unseen. That is the whole damn lot of them to include there families. It was a caste system. Who are the ninja in america?
the homeless, and the mentaly ill. If one thousand were to die tommorow, no one would notice. Still, chances are most of their names and finger prints are on file; so, even they are not truly "unseen".

 

[heretic888]

Heretic, you make some very good points.

Yay for me!

The simple fact is, I know very little about "real" Ninja. I have been a product of the media image of "Ninjas" and of their history.

M'kay, fair enough.

I have never read anything by Steven Hayes, Hatsumi-soke, or anyone who has any historical insight into either Ninja or Ninjitsu.

M'kay, fair enough (by the way, I would recommend "Essence of Ninjutsu: The Nine Traditions" by Hatsumi-soke. Excellent historical info).

I don't believe that Ninja, historical or modern, were imbued with any magical abilities

That depends on what you mean by "magic"... *Twilight Zone music plays in the background*

I don't know what their philosophy of life was, whether it varied from clan to clan, or if they even *had* one.

Ninpo.

At some point in my future, I will probably get a book or two by Hatsumi-soke and actually do a little more research. I would agree that he is the foremost authority on matters Ninja; however, having only one reputable source makes things very difficult. If he were to make up stories, or to color/slant things a certain way, who would be there to challenge?

Well, there are other sources, such as the Bansenshukai. But Hatsumi-soke and his senior-most students are the most direct authorities on the subject (after all, you can't ask a book a question).

My position in this thread has gone from something a bit more tongue in cheek to something a little more defensive, and it shouldn't . As I have mentioned, I come from a position of relative ignorance, which I will readily admit. I have nothing against practitioners of Ninjitsu, as long as they have not learned all their techniques from watching any movies they can get their hands on.

M'kay.

What I boil all this down to is this: Peace, brother, peace. I admit my ignorance and apologize if I have slammed anything you feel strongly about. My lack of knowledge on this subject doesn't allow me any right to come in and make any assumptions or broad statements. So for anything that I have said that has been out of place, I apologize.

*puts down prized tengu sword* Oh, alright.

Now, can you get these damn Ninja out of the woods behind my house?

Try using sushi as bait.

Thank you for all the points you made.

Yup. No problemo.

Seriously, aren't most ninja just "neo-ninja" in that the art is re-created, but not passed down?

Most who claim to be "ninja" certainly are.

 

[heretic888]

I think its important to know who ninjas were rather than what they knew.

I think both are equally important.

Ninja from what I understand meant people who were unseen.

Technically speaking, a more accurate transliteration is people who endure and persevere.

That is the whole damn lot of them to include there families. It was a caste system.

The "ninja" were a subculture within Japan and in many respects lived outside the established caste system and social structure (the mountain ranges of Iga and Koga kind of cut them off from most of the country).

Who are the ninja in america? the homeless, and the mentaly ill. If one thousand were to die tommorow, no one would notice. Still, chances are most of their names and finger prints are on file; so, even they are not truly "unseen".

Uhhh.... right.

That's got to be the most unique 'ninja theory' I have ever heard.

 

[tonbo]

Heretic:

Try using sushi as bait.

Not a chance. The sushi is mine. MINE. And I will defend it to the DEATH!!

I think I have a couple of bottles of sake lying around, though. Maybe that would work.

Soon as I can, I'll get some of the books that you suggested. I have plenty of reading to do, so it may be a while. However, my interest is now peaked.....

Peace--

 

[Cryozombie]

Dont leave CHEAP sake out, we might FLIP OUT AND KILL EVERYONE IN TOWN. We are MAMMALS after all...

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by heretic888
I think both are equally important.



Technically speaking, a more accurate transliteration is people who endure and persevere.



The "ninja" were a subculture within Japan and in many respects lived outside the established caste system and social structure (the mountain ranges of Iga and Koga kind of cut them off from most of the country).



Uhhh.... right.

That's got to be the most unique 'ninja theory' I have ever heard.

Just curious, what group of americans would you say fit the profile or am I barking up the wrong tree all toguether?

 

[heretic888]

Just curious, what group of americans would you say fit the profile

None. To date, I can think of no other cultural group that comes anywhere close to what the Ninja embodied. In many ways, it is a purely Japanese phenomena.

or am I barking up the wrong tree all toguether?

'Fraid so.

If I were to venture a guess at a HYPOTHETICAL western equivalent to the Shinobi, the Jedi Knights of the fictitious Star Wars films might come close and possibly the Knights Templar if they ever bothered learning the arts of stealth.

Laterz, y'all.

 

[tonbo]

Dont leave CHEAP sake out, we might FLIP OUT AND KILL EVERYONE IN TOWN.

Tonbo don't drink no cheap sake.

Life's too short to drink cheap sake.

I'll leave the sake under the......wait, what am I saying? You guys already *know* where all the hiding places are, and where I am most likely to put it! Yeah. Just look for it there.

Oh, and thanks for taking care of the neighbor's dog. It's barking was getting a little old.

:asian:

Peace--

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Ok,
You had your fun, now let us deal with this in a serious manner.

Modern shinobi do still exist. They even have a link with the distant past. They are not special ops guys like SEALs or Delta Force.

They are called Sulsa, and they exist in Korea. The ancient ninja weren't some sort of Rambo with bulging muscles. They had to blend in with the population to gather information or get close to their target. Can you imagine Rambo doing that? For that matter, how many Americans can blend in while in another country?

But Korea is a country where both sides of the border look the same, talk the same and can pass for each other. They are also still at war, so gathering information and preparing assasins is still a very good idea.

A few decades ago, some masters of the art of the Sulsa approached the South Korean goverment and offered their services. What they taught them had to be modified, but the central principles were still vaild. They added on things like how to use cameras and computers to forge documents, but the old trick of covering an accent by faking a speach problem still holds true.

North Korea has their own version, but we do not know that much abou them. We don't think they have any links to the historical Sulsa. We do know that in a land that lets babies starve to death anyone who is in an orphanage has to be there for a purpose. And with the Stalinist regime, training kids from birth to be spies and assassins fanatically loyal to the rulers of North Korea is not hard to believe.

Their training, from what we know of it, is hell on earth. Only a few survive to become operatives. They take political prisoners, (females mainly- and if they are pregnent even better) tie them to posts and give the recruit a knife to kill them without mercy. Later, they are thrown in rooms with male inmates and forced to fight and kill them.

If any of them even think about defecting while they are under cover in South Korea, they know the photos of them gutting a pregnent woman will be released to the world.

The go to special schools later in life. There they learn to be Japanese from native speakers kidnapped for that purpose. Posing as Japanese tourists, they can travel the world. People may be suspicious of Koreans, but no one has problems with the Japanese asking questions.

Yes Virginia, Ninja still exist. Don't expect to find them in Japan or in the American military, but they are out there.

 

[Silent Nightfall]

Am I the only one who feels that the so-called Sulsa sound nothing like the ninja of old? Sure, if they do exist, they know how to survive confrontations, but I doubt their philosophy or combat methods even remotely resemble that of the Japanese ninja. It seems like you still have the concept in your mind that ninja were trained to be assassins and so they needed to be completely ruthless. So, the only resemblance to the ninja that these "Sulsa" have is their ability to blend in and their ability to survive. So what, exactly, makes them the modern ninja?

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Josh,
What makes you think that a group that is famous for one of it's members killing some warlord by sticking a spear up his anus as he sat on the comode isn't "ruthless."

I understand that you probably do not know too much about your art, and that you want to keep your romantic notions about it, but the sad fact is that the Japanese as a whole are pretty damn ruthless in war time. Ever hear of the rape of Nanking, the Bataan Death March and the biological units that experimented on prisoners?

The ninja were famous for espionage, stealth and assaination. The sulsa were also famous for the same thing. In fact, it seems that in the ancient past the ninja learned their art from Korea.

And yes, the way a modern warrior fights looks different from the way it was in the age before guns. So nobody is going to look like the ancient ninja, even the guys who may have a link to them. The only thing constant in this world is change.

 

[Silent Nightfall]

What makes you think that the ninja specialized in assassinations? Many members here can tell you that such is not the case. Also, why would you relate the Japanese army to the ninja? Yes, the Japanese military was ruthless in many of its endeavors. The ninja were not part of this group. There were periods in history when some ninja acted as advisers in military affairs during the feudal age, yes, and they were also hired for espionage as well, but rarely ever for assassinations. The guerilla tactics and fighting styles of the ninja were developed, and correct me if I am wrong, as a means of survival against groups that would seek their annihilation as some did back in that era. The group of which you speak, the Sulsa, are brought up to pledge allegiance to their government and become ruthless soldiers pretty much. This totally goes against the philosophy of ninpo so I'm not quite sure as to how you relate the two. The ninja's goal is to be in harmony with all around him. This is reflected in the way he both lives and fights. I doubt the same can be said for the Sulsa. Just my opinion.

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Originally posted by Silent Nightfall
The guerilla tactics and fighting styles of the ninja were developed, and correct me if I am wrong, as a means of survival against groups that would seek their annihilation as some did back in that era.

Consider yourself corrected.

I realize you are not very knowledgeable about the subject matter. The ninja were known for assasination. The first book in English to introduce Masaaki Hatsumi was written by Andrew Adams and called......guess what?

Yes, the ninja had a lot of emphisis on spiritual development. But that was because they had to do things that would corrupt them if they did not. One of their harshest rules was that they could not use their skills to personally benifit in a financial sense. (Oh God- look at all the people making money off of the ninjutsu name now.) The sulsa also had such rules and emphisis on being a good person.

Perhaps you should read more from good sources, instead of relying on the romantic versions of hisotry your teacher passes along to you.

 

[Silent Nightfall]

Here is a thought. Why don't we wait for some of the other members here to post on thus subject? Before I begin my wait, however, I thought I might tell you that my instructor has never discussed the history of ninjutsu and the ninja with me. I am always more concerned with my training. Secondly you should know that I have read countless articles where Hatsumi-sensei has stressed that ninja were not known for assassinations as Hollywood would have many believe. I think such might even be stated somewhere within "Essence of Ninjutsu: The Nine Traditions" by Soke Hatsumi, which I finished reading only a few weeks prior to this. Perhaps instead of making assumptions as to how knowledgeable a person is, you might first wish to question how knowledgeable you, yourself, are. But as I said, do not take my word for it. Simply wait for responses from other forum members and then reply back afterwards. As of right now, our going back and forth without other input is useless and a waste of time. For now, I respectfully bow out and let the other more experienced and knowledgeable members of this forum take the floor. :asian:

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Originally posted by Silent Nightfall
Before I begin my wait, however, I thought I might tell you that my instructor has never discussed the history of ninjutsu and the ninja with me.

I see the source of your ignorance. You do not even seem to know the book by Adrew Adams.

Have you bothered to read anything in Japanese? I have and can state what I do with authority.

Of course I realize why you just do not want to accept the cold, hard facts about the matter so I forgive you and your nasty attitude towards me.

 

[heretic888]

In response to Shadow Hunter's first post, I would like to mention that the Sulsa (if they ever existed or do still exist) have no more parallels to the Japanese Ninja than the Navy SEALS or Green Berets do. And, we pointed out in earlier posts that what few parallels these Special Forces have to the Ninja are of a rather superficial nature. The essence of the Ninja culture was not guerilla tactics and sneaky assassinations.

I would also strongly doubt (but not flat-out disbelieve) the rather conspiratorial rantings of the Sulsa still operating in Korea. Not without any reliable sources that is.

There is no credible historical connection between the Ninja and the Sulsa, either.

Am I the only one who feels that the so-called Sulsa sound nothing like the ninja of old?

No.

So what, exactly, makes them the modern ninja?

Very little.

What makes you think that a group that is famous for one of it's members killing some warlord by sticking a spear up his anus as he sat on the comode isn't "ruthless."

Famous?? Last time I checked, that little tidbit of history happened ONCE and there was no actual credible connections to that event to the Ninja cultures of Iga and Koga any more than some other assassination group or mercenary.

I understand that you probably do not know too much about your art, and that you want to keep your romantic notions about it

Gee, that didn't come off as incredibly narcissistic or anything. :shrug:

but the sad fact is that the Japanese as a whole are pretty damn ruthless in war time. Ever hear of the rape of Nanking, the Bataan Death March and the biological units that experimented on prisoners?

You apparently mistakenly assume the Ninja families were part of mainstream conventional Japanese culture. They were geographically cut off from the rest of the country and developed their own, semi-independent culture.

I would say the Ninja were as ruthless as they had to be to ensure their survival.

The ninja were famous for espionage, stealth and assaination. The sulsa were also famous for the same thing.

Therein lies your problem, Shadow Hunter. You are relying on popular literature, drama, and gossip of the Tokugawa and Meiji Eras as valid historical information. There is actually very little mention of the Ninja in the historical record. Sources such as the Bansenshukai and Hatsumi-soke's scrolls are your best bet.

In fact, it seems that in the ancient past the ninja learned their art from Korea.

There is not one valid historical source to validate this theory.

In any event, I have seen this so-called "Korean ninjutsu" myself. It does not resemble Ninja no Taijutsu at all. It looks like some souped up form of Tae Kwon Do. No flow at all.

Consider yourself corrected.

I fail to see why, considering you have yet to present one credible source for any of your claims.

I realize you are not very knowledgeable about the subject matter. The ninja were known for assasination. The first book in English to introduce Masaaki Hatsumi was written by Andrew Adams and called......guess what?

I hate to break this to you, but Mr. Adams is hardly a historical authority on Ninja or Ninjutsu. His lack of primary (or even secondary) sources is laughable. I personally found his book quite enertaining.

Yes, the ninja had a lot of emphisis on spiritual development. But that was because they had to do things that would corrupt them if they did not.

"Corrupt" them??

The sulsa also had such rules and emphisis on being a good person.

Sources, please.

Perhaps you should read more from good sources, instead of relying on the romantic versions of hisotry your teacher passes along to you.

Well, Shadow Hunter, you have yet to recall a single valid primary or secondary historical source. Perhaps you should take your own advice??

I see the source of your ignorance. You do not even seem to know the book by Adrew Adams.

I do, and I would claim that book to be a source of your own ignorance on the subject. I can't believe you actually think it is historically valid. Most of Adams' sources come from fictional literature. And, the few times he does use actual historical sources, they are always biased and unsupported by any other sources (example: he has an old manuscript showing a bunch of samurai dressed in black and calls them "ninja" without any justifications for this claim outside of superficial parallels).

Have you bothered to read anything in Japanese? I have and can state what I do with authority.

Such as??

Of course I realize why you just do not want to accept the cold, hard facts about the matter so I forgive you and your nasty attitude towards me.

*snicker snicker ralph*