Buddhist theory of ninja origin

[Kizaru]

I never meant to get in a discussion about the origins of ninjutsu....

So why did you name the thread that you started "Buddhist theory of ninja origin" ?

 

[Cryozombie]

So why did you name the thread that you started "Buddhist theory of ninja origin" ?

Cmon man... we get it. You won... lets let it go and play nice.

K?

And mail me that girl soon please.

 

[ninjaJim]

Actually, I don't know what you're talking about. I don't see "ninjutsu training" being posted in my local newspaper anytime soon.

That's their own responsibilty. They can do their best to live up to them, stick them in the closet or advertise them all over the place. Personal responsibilty.

Maybe the "politics" are supposed to be a part of the training environment.
I do recall someone older and wiser than me saying that, "People who study Budo must have an understanding for war, economics and politics".

Is it?

Maybe you should enroll in a temple somewhere or try some yoga classes. You'd probably have a better chance finding what you're looking for there rather than by stirring things up on an internet forum.

ENTITLED TO?!?! The world, Japan and the Bujinkan don't owe anyone anything. Personal responsibility.

There's an old saying, "Lead, follow, or get out of the way".
I don't wonder why you left at all.

The "newspaper" reference was aimed at certain watered down/commercialized elements of the art. It's good for the world to know of ninjutsu but to know it in the way that the masses do bothers me. I used to see it on a smaller scale but to see it in these proportions bugs me.

I could care less about the frauds. What gets me is that now most seekers have a general idea of where the good stuff is. Trouble is, this makes it harder because the reality is that instructors can only take on so many personal students.

The type of spiritual training one would get from someone under Hatsumi is unique. Although enlightenment either is or isn't realized the type of knowlege found in a particular environment is what I'd like to have.

I'm not making much sense, probably because my eyelids are half open.

Nite:flushed:

 

[ninjaJim]

So why did you name the thread that you started "Buddhist theory of ninja origin" ?

I didn't Don did.

I wanted to talk about what modern training should be. This was an effort to find something decent. Somewhere to go.

 

[Shogun]

I see that everyone is walking around with impressive titles which are clearly manufactured.

I got a fancy title too. 3rd year 10th kyu. master of nothing, student of everything.

 

[ninjaJim]

You're right. Titles really don't mean that much. It is the individual that counts. What blows my mind is when I see people doing this kind of self deception for twenty years. (I'm talking about a few people I knew to be frauds then and still are)

What's important to me is what someone can pass on and what they are willing to share.

Here's a pic from the good 'ole days... This was a fun place to train. Just thought I'd post a pic of things from a better time.

 

[Kizaru]

Cmon man... we get it. You won... lets let it go and play nice.

While appreciate your concern for the direction the discussion is moving in, my arguement isn't about winning or losing; it's about integrity.

And mail me that girl soon please.

I'll hand you the loaded gun, you can put it to your head yourself...
http://www.japancupid.com

 

[Shogun]

I clicked on the link.................and...................you should have made a disclaimer or something. a dating site? good one.

 

[Shinkengata]

Jim....bro....pal...


i got news for ya. The training you are receiving is a 3%(maybe) Ninjutsu and 97% Samurai art. Yes, sure, 3 of the 9 ryuha are Ninpo, but two of them aren't even being taught as far as i am aware and if they are it's almost exclusively in Japan, and what you are studying from the Togakure makes for about, you guessed it, 3% of the entire deal.

Soke stopped calling it Ninjutsu for a reason. None of us are studying pure Ninjutsu, or even most or half Ninjutsu, for that matter. None of us can even be considered Ninja, except for Soke, and im willing to bet that's a label he does not prefer.

 

[Shogun]

There is reason the Takamatsu dvd is called the last real ninja. Hatsumi, from what I've heard, doesnt use the term Ninja to refer to himself, but he is rather a copy of the book the Ninja wrote (in a good way).

 

[Don Roley]

I didn't Don did.

That is correct, I did. And I did it because of the content of your first few posts here and comments like,

The basic story of the ninja revolves around Buddhist "magic" and the need for leaders to control who possessed this magic.

Now, five pages later, you seem willing to admit that Buddhism had little to do with the development of ninjutsu, but you are still making comments like,

Ninja that were truly great beings existed in a time just before they defended their faith. One would never put their life at risk for religion unless they believed in it.

So you are still trying to say that Buddhism is central to what the ninja was. And without any references to back up what you say you are trying to portray the ninja as defending their faith against outside forces.

Guess, what? Buddhism was/is not more or less important to the ninja that to any other faction in Japanese history.

And now you are kind of getting into an area that could cause some big problems. You seem to be saying that Hatsumi wants us to be Buddhists, or that in order to be good practicioners we need to be Buddhist.

Now if you can't provide proof for that in the form of statements and such from Hatsumi there are a few folks that will probably get mad at you for presuming to say that you know more about how ninjutsu should be practiced than Hatsumi. How can someone like you who only reached sixth kyu and has never met Hatsumi tell some of us how training should be? Do you realize just how arrogent that sounds to us? And the spiritual training you say we can get from Hatsumi- please give exact quotes and cites for any type of spiritual training he wants us to go through.

The most you seem to be able to post is the following,

Show me a quote where Hatsumi says that a ninja is/was only a simple technician.

Dude, it doesn't work like that. You can't convince us that just because Hatsumi has never said something, that we have to accept your conclusions about what he would have said. You have to show us where Hatsumi has said anything about how he wants us to be good little practicing (insert name of religion or philosophy) in order to be good practicioners.

Listen to Kizaru on this matter. He has probably forgotten more about Buddhism than you will ever learn. I don't want you to get mauled on your first thread at martialtalk, so please start citing references and do not try to tell others how they should be training unless you have a lot more experience than they do. People tend to get testy about that.

 

[ninjaJim]

Never said that Hatsumi gets up there and barks at people to train in the spiritual aspect or else they will suck.

What I am trying to say is that there is so much more to this art than just the physical techniques. It would be a shame to train and not get the entire package. This is not meant to invalidate someone's training if it should not include these aspects. What I'm saying is if you are going to expend X amount of energy to follow a path then you should go as far as it can take you. Unfortunately with the current influx of trainees things become harder for the person really seeking something more.

That's all

 

[BlackCatBonz]

Never said that Hatsumi gets up there and barks at people to train in the spiritual aspect or else they will suck.

What I am trying to say is that there is so much more to this art than just the physical techniques. It would be a shame to train and not get the entire package. This is not meant to invalidate someone's training if it should not include these aspects. What I'm saying is if you are going to expend X amount of energy to follow a path then you should go as far as it can take you. Unfortunately with the current influx of trainees things become harder for the person really seeking something more.

That's all

please explain what "the entire package" consists of.

 

[Blind]

Ninjajim, I am taking the "whole package" to mean the spiritual,mystical and mental abilities to be included in training. Are you asking for a guarantee? "if I start now will it be there when I am of the ability to understand"? That doesn't really seem like a sensible attitude, no offence intended, but what is it you want to be capable of? Or are you just interested in religion so you can be happy and or go to heaven?

Also, I don't think that because there are more students it is harder for a "true seeker", you might have to sift through a few more teachers but then there are a lot more good ones around too. Anyway, if you imagine you are "entitled" to the "true" teachings of Hatsumi sensei and want them direct from the horses mouth then get in line, put in the 10-20-30 years or so and maybe if he is still around you might get them. More likely though your views after 10 years training or so will have changed so much that you will not consider these things as being very important, at least not in the way you do now.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

4. I'm not just talking about what ninja were I'm talking about what they are. With Hatsumi being used as a ruler it would seem that the spiritual ninja is the standard. The "ideal" ninja as something to aspire to be. Anyone can just learn techniques, methods and skills but to wear the name ninja is more than that.

The word ninja was rarely used in the times when the ones we nowadays refer to as ninja operated. And I'm not sure if you can call Hatsumi sensei a ninja.

You are right! The people called ninja were just as you say they were. The difference is what one group calls a ninja today is not the same as others.

No, that's right - for instance the Fuma ninja served the Hojo clan mostly, while Satsuma ryu served the Shimazu clan.

3. Just broke out the old rank certificate. It says Ninpo Taijutsu. I used Togakure as something to show that I was from a different school and a different time.

Come again?

The current training is definitely not like the "old days".

Would you mind elaborating on that, other than the obvious increased amount of knowledge and quality in the present day?

And yesterday was lousy because I hate indie pop. Reggaeton, dancehall and soca 4 life.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

What I am trying to say is that there is so much more to this art than just the physical techniques. It would be a shame to train and not get the entire package.

No, the true shame is that there are people who think they can have the entire package without decades of hard training behind them. And is it just me, or do the people who have trained long enough so as to being able to grasp the deeper philosophical meanings (I do absolutely not count myself as one of those) not seem to talk about them all that much, apart from Hatsumi sensei...?

 

[Shinkengata]

In response to what i've gathered from a few of our friend Jim's previous posts, i'd like to say that i would NOT like to revert back to the training of the 70's and 80's, because this art has evolved, as it is supposed to. It has grown, and to try and preserve the art as it was 20 or 30 years ago would go against the growth of the art and the universal "flow" that Soke talks about so extensively in his writings. With every passing year, the teachings have evolved and grown. Of course there are still basic elements that have remained largely the same. It's like computers. Why go back to the Tandy 2000 when computer technology has evolved and progressed so far today? And if you want to get even deeper into that analogy, speaking of basic elements, there are those that have remained largely the same in computers. They all still have a motherboard, hard drive, monitor, etc.

I understand if you want to go back to the intensity and realism that the Bujinkan trained with in those days. That's perfectly understandable and even encouraged on my part. Just understand that our training has evolved because of the natural flow of time and life, and because of Soke's evolving level of personal training.

If any of my views are incorrect, please inform me of such. I'm just speaking from my own observations and what i think.

 

[Mickey Mullins]

Ninjajim wrote:

Ninja that were truly great beings existed in a time just before they defended their faith. One would never put their life at risk for religion unless they believed in it.

A NINJA would never put his/her their families,etc. life at risk over something such as this anyway,no matter what they believed.Momochi Sandayu wrote:
"Ninjutsu is not something which should be used for personal desires. It is something which should be used when no other choice is available, for the sake of one's country, for the sake of one's lord, or to escape personal danger. If one deliberately uses it for the sake of personal desires, the techniques will indeed fail totally."

Religion would be classified as a personal desire.Then there is the PRINCIPLE of Shizen gyoon ryusui.Therefore your theory still can't be solid.Following is a "true" ninja's view on religion,maybe this will help with the wall you're struggling against?

Essence of Religion
​

by Toshitsugu Takamatsu
​

April 3, 1949 According to all of the sacred books and scrolls from all of the world’s religions, we read that in ancient times there were "natural powers" in existence and that Heaven brought everything into harmony. Since the beginning of time there existed a step-by-step plan of Heaven (Tendo in Japanese). This is referred to in the Christian Bible as "Genesis" in which religion was planted by the seeds of necessity. In sacred Buddhist texts this is the story of how Miroku came down from Heaven after his messenger, the King of Tenrin, prepared his visit by bringing destructive forces under control. This is somewhat similar to the Christian Bible referring to the Golden Age of Paradise being near Heaven. To reside in such a beautiful place one must have a pure and clean heart. As the time of Heaven is different than that of man’s it is said that a day in Heaven is worth a thousand years or eternity on earth. It seems within Heaven the passing of Eons is but a second.

Before recorded history in Japan there was a time referred to as the Age of the Gods. This was the beginning of Japan’s history and is was the time when Emperor Jinmu took the throne. In Japan, the Kami (Gods) were seen as actually meaning the Spirit of God or of the divine. There are many references in the past that show some people were elevated above other humans by being of a pure nature and instilled with the power of the divine. These same individuals became the people who maintained the peace throughout the world. The Gods were not conceived to just protect one nation, and it is irrational to think in this way. In reality, the blessings of the divine are bestowed upon all virtuous people of the world. Anything else falls short of the complexity and depth of Heaven. Other countries with their exalted gods and their hierarchy are the same as the case of "Jehovah". As an example, historically the King of Heaven (Bonten Tentei) there are many difficult, but inherent concepts, intertwined with a variety of underlying principles. This makes it difficult for others to understand when lacking the appropriate background. This refers to the etiquette of Heaven when speaking of Shaka, Koshi, Christ, Mohammed, etc. Only by delving into the roots of the subject can the true points be illuminated and this is true in all things. It is thought in Ancient Japan that all things contain the spirit of God (kami). This means that not only mankind contains this spirit but all living things. In other words, God connects with everything. With this point in mind, it can be seen that any man could possibly be gifted with the light of truth. Man can then be void of dogmatism and egoism and will always strive for freedom. This will lead one on the path of Heaven and the ability to reach a true understanding.

As we can see there is room for everyone from all religious backgrounds. On the true path of Heaven, the true believers are not concerned with "titles" but merely as fellow seekers of truth. There will always be unethical ministers from all religious groups that speak eloquently of the truth and righteousness, but internally are not incorporating this into their lives and setting the example. Any person that is a true believer, regardless of their faith, and who possesses an open spirit with a light surrounding their heart is truly of another world!


On another note,you wrote:

Here's a pic from the good 'ole days... This was a fun place to train. Just thought I'd post a pic of things from a better time.

Looks like everyone was having a good time!However how can you call it a better time if you haven't trained in so many years?There are so many resources for training available today that there is no excuse for someone who truly wants to learn,not to.I am quite sure your perspective would change: ).

Mickey Mullins

 

[Don Roley]

In response to what i've gathered from a few of our friend Jim's previous posts, i'd like to say that i would NOT like to revert back to the training of the 70's and 80's, because this art has evolved, as it is supposed to.

I don't know if it really is a case of the art evolving. I think it is more that we are getting more and more correct information from Japan and a tighter bond with Hatsumi. I was around in the early days on the sideline. I remember Hayes selling his own brand of straight bokken because that is what ninja were supposed to have used, people talking about wind stances, people making the weirdest speculations on history based on very little actual facts, articles in Ninja Realm that taught people to shoot using IPSC sport styles, etc.

But of course, some people liked the old days with its different image than we now hear coming out of Japan. The first stories I heard about the ninja were fairly romantic. The more and more I hear of reality, the more realistic (i.e.- less exciting) everything seems to be. It is still exciting to me, it just seems less like a star wars movie in the possibilies that we could fill in the blanks with our imagination.

 

[Shinkengata]

Thanks for the insight, Don. Much appreciated.

In any case, it's safe to say that the transmission of the art today is better than it was in those days.