Thoughts on TMA blocks. A discussion.

[Kframe]

From what im learning the point of the "blocks"(aka delfections) is to disrupt the flow of the incoming attack and allow you a possible opening to counter. That principle is not unknown to me, in boxing we are tuaght from the beginnig that you cant defend your way to a win you have to do both using one to set up the other.

Whats turning into a learning process for me is, i have to change my stance to better facilitate the delflections im relearning. Im finding out that the hands close to the sides of my head stance is not conducive to deflecting anything. So now im working with my coach on a new stance.

 

[Chris Parker]

Well, that depends entirely on the particular TMA you're talking about, and how it chooses to express the concept of "blocks". For many, they won't be deflections as much as absorbing the incoming attack, or potentially straight counter attacks themselves. For us, for instance, we have a very wide range of "blocking" actions... ranging from knuckles used as a form of counter-strike to the incoming attacking limb, to counter kicking a kick, to applying a light "checking" forearm, to catching the incoming attack with your hand (in specific circumstances), to forearm deflections (really, aiming to knock the arm away, and the opponent off balance), to forearm jams, to gentle, following actions where your hand comes behind the attacking arm, guiding it along, to the use of one or both forearms to trap the incoming attack, to crashing down on top of any incoming attack, to methods of pure evasion, and so on. Then there's the methods of stopping throws, avoiding or escaping locks and chokes, and more... and this is before we've gotten to the idea of receiving with the body (ukemi), which is an expansion of the concept of receiving the incoming energy (attack) in order to safely take a throw, lock, or really, any attack.

 

[Kframe]

I know that in the future, ill have to learn mawashi uke. Its a advanced concept deflection that has mutliple applications. One of which is against the round kick. How does one go about applying this technique against the round kick? Looking at the lower portion of the move, You would have to rotate your arm to get the attackers leg into position to scoop it, am i correct on this?

 

[Aiki Lee]

From what you described, it sounds like you got the gist of it.

 

[Kframe]

About the mawashi uke, i was trying to ask my TKD black belt father about it, and could not think of the name. Do any of you TKD guys here know they TKD name of this block? When i demonstrated(more like butchered lol) it he recognized it as a scooping and trapping defense against kicks.

All of the videos of this show it being used on a front kick, Can it work on a round kick thrown at rib cage(floating ribs) level?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I'll give you my thoughts; TMA blocks aren't blocks in the sense that you are intercepting/deflecting an incoming attacking motion. Rather, they are attacking movements in-and-of-themselves. For example, a 'high block' is an effective forearm strike as well as a rather effective shoulder lock. A 'low block' as I've said many times is a very inefficient and to be blunt, a very dangerous movement if one is trying to intercept/deflect an incoming kick/knee spike. Better options exist. However, it is a very effective hammer fist to the lower body of the attacker. Too be clear, 'some' blocking movements, if gross-motor skilled 'can' be effective as a blocking motion. But I will simply state that most 'blocks' are ineffective if used as blocks in real-world altercations but very effective if used as the attacking movements that I (and many art founders) believe (and teach) them to be.

 

[Kframe]

Kong so do, im kinda confused by what your saying. Your implying your art has no deflections in it, then why do your art and many of the arts the founders you speak of keep using the term UKE(ru) which means to recieve?(Props to Chris parker) So your telling me your art has no defense against a incoming punch? Or are you doing what many western boxers do(me included fyi) and rely MOSTLY on evaision? Boxing has parries and blocks in it as well. Now im just a hobbiest boxer, but even i can pull off the boxing rear hand or lead hand block in a free sparring situation with attack power lvls ranging from 25% -60% power. Same with the Inside out parry. I have used them to great sucses in one of the few enviroments close to real fighting.(close but still not the same, rules and what have you)

In fact, Taking the 14oz boxing gloves off and going bare handed(or with mma gloves) I would swap the boxing inside out parry for Chudan UKE. Infact its what my new coach is doing with my training right now. He is incorperating the traditional deflections. The western boxing variant of the inside out parry is clumsy and i dont like it. Here is a video of it.

Sure the article mentions soutpaws but as he states orthodox's use it for power rights. As you can see tho it is clumsy compared to

Here is Dan Djurdjevic's veiw on blocks. http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/06/why-blocks-do-work.html Just based on my admittedly short and limited exposure thus far to the deflections from TMA, i believe that they do in fact work. They arnt fine motor skills, they are gross motor skills. No intricate movements to be found. (Speaking of the basic 4 blocks) All things i have read and in my discussions with Mr.Djurdjevic through email, no deflection should be a smashing impact. The concept is to use a smaller force to effect a much larger incoming force. Your not meeting power with power head on. Your affecting it slightly so it does not impact you.

As i have stated, i have done alot of light to moderate power freesparing in my boxing and mma schools and have sucsessfully used active deflecting and blocking manuvers with my arms.(the pick or catch is a block not a deflection. Its the first thing i pull out against a jab) Albeit most of my deflections and blocks currently come from boxing. Looking at my boxing coachs fighting style they way he tuaght the outside in parry was different then that of the method Fran Sans shows else were in his website.(www.myboxingcoach.com) My coaches outside in parry looks alot like a Chudan uke done in reverse, and he has demonstrated its effectiveness numerous times.

Ill agree that the Soto uke could vary well be a limb destruction style defense, tho in my conversations with Mr.Djurdjevic he says the proper way to do it would not impart any smashing or attack to the limb being deflected.

Look at the Pre 1867 era Bare knuckle boxers. For instance, their hand stance, the place their hands are when they are in guard. Is very similar to the final hand positions of Chudan uke. Here is the best picture i could find on the subject, its in a article by Mr.Djurdjevic http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/08/karate-kamae-or-guard.html I hate that i have to keep referring back to his blog, but i am having a hard time finding old pictures of what im talking about.

So please, im interested in learning about your arts approach to punch and striking defense. Do you guys use the boxer/mma shield defense and evasion or do you have some other way of dealing with incoming stikes that i am not aware off?

 

[Kframe]

Here i a post on another forum talking about just this subject. Youll see what mean about the guard. http://www.traditionalfightingartsforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=618

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The TCMA uses the "block" in many different ways.

Your block is like to:

1. use metal against wood that every block is a cut.
2. raise a curtain and walk under it.
3. squeeze your opponent's comfortable space.
4. give something out and then take something back.
5. guide your opponent arm or leg to a temporary place so it won't be in your moving path.
6. press your opponent's leading arm to jam his back arm.
7. ...

 

[seasoned]

I'll give you my thoughts; TMA blocks aren't blocks in the sense that you are intercepting/deflecting an incoming attacking motion. Rather, they are attacking movements in-and-of-themselves. For example, a 'high block' is an effective forearm strike as well as a rather effective shoulder lock. A 'low block' as I've said many times is a very inefficient and to be blunt, a very dangerous movement if one is trying to intercept/deflect an incoming kick/knee spike. Better options exist. However, it is a very effective hammer fist to the lower body of the attacker. Too be clear, 'some' blocking movements, if gross-motor skilled 'can' be effective as a blocking motion. But I will simply state that most 'blocks' are ineffective if used as blocks in real-world altercations but very effective if used as the attacking movements that I (and many art founders) believe (and teach) them to be.

From the vantage point of an older martial artist, I find it, and my art teaches it, that the best block is to not be there when the attack arrives.
With foot work directly from the kata, it is encouraged to move off center line allowing your opponent, with their forward motion, and the help of a slight redirect, to become unbalanced. Now, striking at will from a position of advantage.

Mind you I am pushing 70's years old, and feel that martial arts, being for everyone, will be there for me at a time when I most need it. "old age"

 

[Kong Soo Do]

So your telling me your art has no defense against a incoming punch?

An action is always going to be faster than a reaction. That is just simple physics. This is why most TMA 'blocks' don't work as blocks. If they did, you'd see them as a defense in boxing, sparring and street fights. What you do see, particularly in boxing and street fights is movement and gross motor skill deflectons based upon the flinch response. This is the quickest and most efficient way to deal with an incoming attack, be it a punch, kick, knee spike or whatever. As far as blocking movements, many TMA blocks are not natural motions which is the reason people don't use them in fights. Some however, such as a inside palm heel 'block' could be used effectively as it is gross motor skill and a natural response to something coming at your face i.e. that is how we swat away bugs flying around our face or swat away the ball someone tossed at us that we weren't expecting.

So to answer your question, yes we do have a defense against incoming threats. They involve movement and natural/flinch responses that lead into an offense.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

The problem with blocking as seen from a Wing Chun perspective is that it is just like two bits of wood smashing together , the biggest and hardest bit of wood usually wins.
Because there is a clash of force , that energy has to go somewhere , and usually it is transferred through the arms and shoulders and ends up destabilising the stance.
Redirection on the other hand will not upset the balance in this manner against a heavy blow.

It's an interesting point of view; in my style we agree that the stronger force wins in a block that is not a deflection, but we believe proper stance channels the force to the feet and then into the ground, which is much stronger than the attacker's arm. Yes, an improper upper body block absorbs the force in the arms, shoulders, back, etc.

Having been shown (again and again, since I'm a slow learner) the difference between a proper upper body block and a proper one, I can attest to the difference in my ability to absorb power when the block is set correctly versus incorrectly.

At the same time, responding to your statements and the OP's, we also believe a block is a strike and a strike is a block, so an upper body block can and should, when possible, turned into a deflection and then a trap, a strike, a means of entering, etc.

A prime example for us would be the difference between 'jodan uke' and 'jodan tegata uke'.

View attachment $jodan-uke.gif

Jodan Uke, seen above, requires the body to set into the proper stance so that the force is channeled through the defender's body and into the ground through his feet.

Jodan Tegata Uke, by contrast, is done with an open hand. Ideally (although not seen in the basic exercise), the hand grasps the incoming attacker's arm at the wrist, hand, or wherever. The blow can be redirected in a variety of ways and an attack launched based on that. One can, of course, launch an attack from the Jodan Uke, but that block stops the opponent's ki flow, rather than redirecting it or stealing it. Both work, in my experience.

Remember I am a student, not a master. This is just my observation at this stage in my training.

 

[mook jong man]

It's an interesting point of view; in my style we agree that the stronger force wins in a block that is not a deflection, but we believe proper stance channels the force to the feet and then into the ground, which is much stronger than the attacker's arm. Yes, an improper upper body block absorbs the force in the arms, shoulders, back, etc.

Having been shown (again and again, since I'm a slow learner) the difference between a proper upper body block and a proper one, I can attest to the difference in my ability to absorb power when the block is set correctly versus incorrectly.

At the same time, responding to your statements and the OP's, we also believe a block is a strike and a strike is a block, so an upper body block can and should, when possible, turned into a deflection and then a trap, a strike, a means of entering, etc.

A prime example for us would be the difference between 'jodan uke' and 'jodan tegata uke'.

View attachment 17367

Jodan Uke, seen above, requires the body to set into the proper stance so that the force is channeled through the defender's body and into the ground through his feet.

Jodan Tegata Uke, by contrast, is done with an open hand. Ideally (although not seen in the basic exercise), the hand grasps the incoming attacker's arm at the wrist, hand, or wherever. The blow can be redirected in a variety of ways and an attack launched based on that. One can, of course, launch an attack from the Jodan Uke, but that block stops the opponent's ki flow, rather than redirecting it or stealing it. Both work, in my experience.

Remember I am a student, not a master. This is just my observation at this stage in my training.

Rather than me take a page of text to explain the Wing Chun deflections , some of them are shown in this video from my old school.
Try to persist through the marketing crap and watch closely and you will see that the defender intercepts the blows with their arms in what we call the 'optimum angle'.
A Wing Chun persons arms are always in this angle except for when striking.

You will also notice the deflections are shearing up and forward or down and forward along the center line , the incoming force is spread along the forearm. They act like a wedge that decelerates the incoming strike and redirects it away from its target.
We do not go out of our way to trap , the main thing is to hit.
The trapping is a consequence of the opponent trying to block or otherwise resist our striking , having said that , if the opponent does leave their arm out there we will make use of it for sure.

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[Kframe]

Well I can understand what your saying about gross motor skills and using the startle/flinch responce for defense. We were running through our blocks again today and the fine motor work infact does not work, but the basic concepts of the deflections work in a gross motor way. From what my coach and other instructors i have talked to have said was that the basic formal deflection drills were to teach the range of motion and angles and the concepts of the deflections. The applications from guard look vastly abbrieviated. To day i repped what i call the combat version of chudan uke and jodan uke and Geidon beri and Age uke. Vastly abrieviated, no fine motor movements, but none the less they worked as intended.

I think the key is the training must work from a gross motor perspective, fine motor flies out the window. Im finding my boxing parrys and the catch are AWESOME and work into the the other things im training. I love boxing, i wish that more people would consider it for self defense since so much of it i have learned is working and integrating into the new combatives im learning. But this off topic.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Well I can understand what your saying about gross motor skills and using the startle/flinch responce for defense...I think the key is the training must work from a gross motor perspective, fine motor flies out the window.

Exactly. Under duress the body will undergo some/several physiological changes; adrenaline is dumped into the body, the eye will dialate and flatten out (possibly promoting tunnel vision), complex motor skills become difficult or impossible, loss of manual dexterity in the extremities (thus reverting to gross motor skills), auditory exclusion, excited delirium etc. This leads to the well known 'fight or flight' response, also known as the flinch response which has been used for decades in L.E. circles and the military as well. Much of it can be traced back to WWII combatives from Fairbairn, Sykes, O'Neill, Applegate, Nelson etc. Simple yet brutally effective and more importantly, retained in long term memory. And I maintain that many of Karate's founders (but not all) knew this as well and built this information into the kata.

 

[K-man]

Rather than me take a page of text to explain the Wing Chun deflections , some of them are shown in this video from my old school.
Try to persist through the marketing crap and watch closely and you will see that the defender intercepts the blows with their arms in what we call the 'optimum angle'.
A Wing Chun persons arms are always in this angle except for when striking.

You will also notice the deflections are shearing up and forward or down and forward along the center line , the incoming force is spread along the forearm. They act like a wedge that decelerates the incoming strike and redirects it away from its target.
We do not go out of our way to trap , the main thing is to hit.
The trapping is a consequence of the opponent trying to block or otherwise resist our striking , having said that , if the opponent does leave their arm out there we will make use of it for sure.

And, as the original karate masters Mutsumura, Higaonna, Uechi etc were all masters of Kung fu we should be able to recognise the same principles in our karate. The karate taught in schools in Japan and later adopted and taught by servicemen who served in Japan and returned home with one or two years of basic karate instruction has lead to blocks being taught where they are not blocks at all. The deflections shown in this video are the same deflections inherent in karate. The problem is. When people look at karate 'blocks', they are watching the wrong hand. :asian:

 

[Kong Soo Do]

And, as the original karate masters Mutsumura, Higaonna, Uechi etc were all masters of Kung fu we should be able to recognise the same principles in our karate. The karate taught in schools in Japan and later adopted and taught by servicemen who served in Japan and returned home with one or two years of basic karate instruction has lead to blocks being taught where they are not blocks at all. The deflections shown in this video are the same deflections inherent in karate. The problem is. When people look at karate 'blocks', they are watching the wrong hand. :asian:

I'd like to add on to this with a couple of points; first, Itosu Sensei created the Pinan katas and later relabeled the movements for the inclusion in the Okinawan school system. This effectively created an adult version and an childrens version of these five kata. I hestitate to use the phrase, 'dumbed down' when perhaps less-than-lethal is a better descriptor of the revision. His view seemed to be that children didn't really need to know 'adult' karate as this form of karate is simple, brutal and often lethal (as in great bodily harm and/or death). I would postulate that the childrens version is taught in the wider venue, not just in karate but in arts stemming from karate. Since one can only teach what they themselves have been taught, this version has a wide spread following that have never been exposed to 'adult' karate i.e. 'that isn't a block...it's a strke or lock or throw or whatever'. This isn't stated to look down on anyone's training, but simply to point out that there is a difference. The 'childrens' version more readily lends itself towards the sporting aspects of the martial arts since breaking limbs, choking someone out or maiming is frowned upon in sporting competitons. The irony is that the 'blocks' that are taught as blocks are not used in sporting competitions either because, as has been pointed out by several members, they simply don't work against a resisting opponent much less a violent attacker.

Secondly, in regards to Uechi Kanbun Sensei, much of his written teachings were lost in a fire when Uechi Kanei was still rather young. I personally don't feel that the full art of Pangainoon (Ueichi Ryu) was passed on to Uechi Kanei Sensei. Certainly not all that was learned by Uechi Kanbun Sensei in the Shoalin temple in China. He refused to teach Pangainoon until many years after his return from China. And I don't think he in turn had time before his death to fully teach all that he learned to his senior students. I could be wrong, but this is my impression while training in the art. I think a lot was lost. But even with that, advanced Uechi practitioners know that movements in the kata (three Pangainoon and five added later by Uechi Kanei Sensei) have offensive meanings far beyond what would be understood by a casual glance.

My point with these two things is simply that due to several circumstances in various arts, the full depth of the art in question is not generally known by or taught to the masses. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that most people's training sucks. Please don't take it that way. But based upon my nearly 40 years in the arts, training in multiple arts, having a unique opportunity to train with some world class masters, having a career that forces me to actually use the martial arts (sometimes on a daily basis)...I strongly feel that there exists two distinct venues in the arts in this modern era. One venue can be rewarding, but is often based upon Itosu's 'alternate' version of karate. The other is simultaneously simplier yet has more depth in terms of real world effectiveness. Trying hard to word this so that I'm not sounding like I'm putting one down in favor of the other. Different strokes for different folks kinda sorta. But there is a difference that exists in this modern era of martial arts. One should clearly understand the differences so that they can then choose the venue that meets their particular needs. Hope this is all coming out the right way...

 

[Kong Soo Do]

The problem is. When people look at karate 'blocks', they are watching the wrong hand. :asian:

I wanted to address this separately as it is important and your comment hits the nail on the head. This is a clear way, in my opinion, to find out which 'camp' a persons training falls into. Simple question;

"Whats the other hand doing"?

Some will answer that it is 'chambered' for a punch.

Some will answer that it has grasped something on the attacker (such as a limb or extremity) and has brought it into their center, thereby shifting the attacker off-balance and setting up an offensive movement designed to quickly end the conflict. Or, that the other hand has grasped the attacker in such a way as to set up a throw or lock if it is a less-than-lethal response where the attacker has already been stunned or distracted and control is desired rather than blunt trauma.

 

[seasoned]

And, as the original karate masters Mutsumura, Higaonna, Uechi etc were all masters of Kung fu we should be able to recognise the same principles in our karate. The karate taught in schools in Japan and later adopted and taught by servicemen who served in Japan and returned home with one or two years of basic karate instruction has lead to blocks being taught where they are not blocks at all. The deflections shown in this video are the same deflections inherent in karate. The problem is. When people look at karate 'blocks', they are watching the wrong hand. :asian:

And this my friend is a great point, and changes the whole makeup of "blocking", as we know it. The cover hand is the actual "block" where as the presumed block is free to do many other things.

 

[seasoned]

Even though I was taught block/chamber, the chamber hand does take on a whole new meaning once certain principles are applied.