Thoughts on TMA blocks. A discussion.

[Tony Dismukes]

The original description of this thread seems a bit broad to me - "TMA" could cover a wide variety of styles with very different approaches to blocking. I'm going to limit the following comments to the type of blocking most seem to be discussing in this thread - karate/tkd style "hard" blocks with chambering and large movements.

These discussions come up regularly due to the realization that these "blocks" are completely unworkable in the form that they are widely taught. Different practitioners offer different explanations of the movements, with various degrees of plausibility:

The large blocking action is a training movement which is refined down to a much smaller movement in actual application.
The "block" is actually a strike.
The "chambering action" is actually the block.
The "block" is actually an armbar or other grappling movement.
Etc.

I don't have any particular clue what the original purpose intended by the inventors of the kata for these movements was. I do believe that the entire issue points to a major pedagogical failure by the people who developed these systems and passed them down.

When a large percentage of people teaching your art have a profound misunderstanding of the purpose of some of the most fundamental techniques in the system and the better informed disagree among themselves about the meaning of those techniques, then something is wrong with your methods of instruction.

I found it interesting to read Dan Djurdjevic's blog that was linked earlier. Mr. Djurjevik is clearly a knowledgeable and articulate practitioner of Karate and other martial arts. He is an advocate of the view that the large blocking actions found in kata are kinisthetic training tools to develop the body mechanics used in the much smaller, more refined blocking actions that a practitioner would use in a real fight. Yet he describes a couple of different instances where he was challenged by a student regarding the utility of the blocks as traditionally taught and he was unable to articulate an explanation of that view on the spot. By his own account, he understood the movements well enough to use them but he was not prepared to explain them properly.

In these discussions, the claim is often made that knowledge has been lost in the generations since the founders of karate did their thing. The blame for this loss is often placed on students who didn't study long enough before setting out to teach on their own. My perspective is different. If you have a student who trains with you for just a few years before going his own way, his skill may not equal your own. That's reasonable. However, if a high percentage of your students who have trained with you for several years have a complete misunderstanding of the basic meaning of fundamental techniques, then you have failed as an instructor.

I doubt that all the founders of karate just happened to be naturally bad teachers, so I suspect the issue is probably cultural. The "traditional" martial arts may work just fine for their intended purpose, but the "traditional" instructional methods can probably be improved on quite a bit.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

In these discussions, the claim is often made that knowledge has been lost in the generations since the founders of karate did their thing. The blame for this loss is often placed on students who didn't study long enough before setting out to teach on their own. My perspective is different. If you have a student who trains with you for just a few years before going his own way, his skill may not equal your own. That's reasonable. However, if a high percentage of your students who have trained with you for several years have a complete misunderstanding of the basic meaning of fundamental techniques, then you have failed as an instructor.

That is a viable consideration Tony. I'll offer this as well; arts can branch into different venues or points of focus. The standard example is self-defense and sport. Since they differ, attributes can and do differ as well. There maybe some superficial cross-over, but the fundementals are very different. So, if one aspect gets taught in favor of another then the atrributes of that one will become better known. Just a thought to toss out.

 

[Kframe]

Now about deflecting/blocking front kicks, i think it depends on the kind of front kick. The snapping front kick that i most commonly associate with karate/tkd is harder to deflect/block due to how fast its and the general movement of the leg. Its UP and OUT very very quickly. My coach has said that if i want to close the gap, and they throw a snaping front kick, move in and "jam" it. By moving in(dont forget to use angles, dont go straight in lol) you arrive at the kick well before it is properly set up to do much damage. Of course you can move forward at a angle off the center line and use a forearm flat lowblock on the thigh but same rules apply as to the round kick, avoid that shin, or scoop it. I wonder if a step in and off center line(angle) combined with a rear hand outside to inside palm parry could work with out much risk of injury?

Now the pushing front kick is a whole different beast IMHO. Commonly called the Teep(as most people know it from Muay Thai) it is more of a pushing action. Tho if you aim it right your teep can take the breath out of them if you target the lower floating ribs, but honestly you dont hear about KO by Teep. As i said its more of a controll the distance manuver vs a damage manuver. Being that as it may, i think a low block May work there, but as i am a boxer first i tend to just turn in and absorb it with my elbow.(a defensive inside fighting move, the arm is against my body the blow hits elbow region, energy is dispersed by whole body) The key is recogizing which kind of front kick your dealing with.

Another boxing block that may work is the Double arm block.

There is lotsa risk there to your arms but its more of a desparation i just got cuaght of guard and this is all i have thing. I have used it when i screwed up in hard sparring. I slipped a straight left, and as i came back i changed levels to do a straight right on the body. My opponent expected this and offered a quick low round kick, that would have nailed me right on my solar plexus. I Had no other response then to do that block and it worked. I came back up and continued the fight. Tho ill say this, my forearms hurt for a few days after that, no bruise but it was sore. So again a block(a hard block by definition) that you can use situationally.

For me being that im 5foot 8 and 298lbs, in hard sparring i find that front kicks are my worst enemy. I have a hard time with them. I am not fast enough to dodge them alot of times so i am looking at deflection techniques on them.

I keep thinking about the whole chambered hand is the block thing and it still dosent sit right. Assume a opponent throws a straight right at you. From fight stance, you right hand grabs the incoming projectle and pulls it down, while the raised hand does a attack. My issue with that is it seams like a long distance for the right hand to travel to interecept the attack and make a grab. Which from the description im getting is a grab to the out side of there arm. The closest thing i have, is our parry trap. We have a few intro's into our five swords and the parry trap is one we practice often. From fight stance(and from a basic stance, to simulate a sudden attack you didnt expect) , instead of the lead arm blocking, the right rear arm, comes accross your chest(palm up) and intercepts the attack, guiding it to your lead left which grabs it either above your rear right or from underneith. From the grab we do our five swords. (the attacks can vary) Our parry inpacts the inner forearm of the attacking arm, less distance traveled and feels quicker and natural. I will test your theroy of the grab and strike, and report back what i find.

Looking at the scoop we did for the round kick, if you take your other arm and grab there body and manuver them for a throw, it looks alot like mawashi uke. Vastly abrieviated and with out the formal flowery movement but you can it in there.

 

[Cyriacus]

I'd like to offer some thoughts here, keep in mind this is only my opinion and based upon my training. Please keep in mind I'm discussing this from strictly a SD perspective rather than competition. YMMV

First, I would suggest that kicking with the instep isn't the safest, or most practical impact area of the leg. There are a lot of variables in an offensive movement such as this that are beyond the control of the one implementing the kick i.e. distance, obstacles, movement on the part of both parties involved, actual surface area impacted etc. The chance of injuring the foot (hyper-extenstion) or simply direct bruising can be pretty high depending on the variables. Footwear of course will add protection somewhat, but I will offer that it is quite different than wearing foot safety gear and impacting on other types of safety gear. It can make a great 'whack', but doesn't offer the penetration of a kick using the shin.

Of course - However, that doesnt mean that either A: Some people condition Their insteps, B: Some people train it for whatever reason, or C: They do aim with the shin, but 'miss'.

Now, keep in mind that I've trained in arts that do body conditioning including the shins. Not all arts do this, or train shin kicks. I would, humbly, suggest that an impact with the instep is not in the same league as a kick with the shin. The shin kick is quite capable of breaking bone i.e. ulna, radius, humerous, ribs or upper leg. Secondly, as I've pointed out in other threads (and it seems Kframe's coach is on the same sheet of music), the shin vs. the ulna or radius bone just isn't a fair trade off. Thirdly, if someone is actively trying to shin kick you, they probably know 'something'. I would not want to be offering them my arm in a force-on-force exchange with my forearm. I've conditioned my forearms and I still wouldn't not want to go arm-on-leg. For that matter, I've gone shin-on-shin with a good kicker. Unfortunately, he didn't condition his shins, or perhaps I should say fortunately for me he didn't. As it turns out, I had a red mark and he was doubled up on the ground holding his leg. Not a superman boast on my part, its just when you condition your shins with bowling pins, tires, other people kicking you etc you tend to build up some tolerance in those areas.

I suddenly feel very good about Myself for kicking with My shins

I do agree with you on stepping into the attack. This prevents it from reaching its maximal velocity and power. If one is able to step in effectively, and sometimes it can be a big step in, you can trap the leg, turning them into a one-legged fighter. In this regard, I would almost prefer them to be a good kicker as they would probably get more heighth in their kick, making it easier to trap (you don't have to bend down so far, taking yourself of center).

Of course, Youd also have to be careful of walking into a punch to the face. However, You could also punch Them in the face as You step in and rotate Your arm around into a grab/hook/whatever you call trapping a leg.

Good topic. Good discussion

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Of course - However, that doesnt mean that either A: Some people condition Their insteps, B: Some people train it for whatever reason, or C: They do aim with the shin, but 'miss'.

You make some good points. As a 'shin' kicker, the instep isn't something I'm comfortable with or have a plethora of experience with. I'd be interested to hear how one would condition their instep without injury. And absolutely, very possible to be trying to nail them with the shin...but they move or your aim is off. If they would just hold still...:uhyeah:

I suddenly feel very good about Myself for kicking with My shins

Didn't feel good in the beginning for sure, but the payoff was worth it.

Of course, Youd also have to be careful of walking into a punch to the face. However, You could also punch Them in the face as You step in and rotate Your arm around into a grab/hook/whatever you call trapping a leg.

+1

Chin Na has quite a few leg traps/locks that work well. Other arts as well of course. If you can get the position to trap and lock the leg it really makes a big deal towards ending the aggressiveness of someone. We use something like this once the bad guy is on the ground, kinda an X with both legs. It really puts them at a disadvantage and gives us a chance to cuff n stuff (and especially if leg shackles are being used).

 

[Cyriacus]

You make some good points. As a 'shin' kicker, the instep isn't something I'm comfortable with or have a plethora of experience with. I'd be interested to hear how one would condition their instep without injury. And absolutely, very possible to be trying to nail them with the shin...but they move or your aim is off. If they would just hold still...:uhyeah:

How dare They not stand still and let Me hit Them!
As far as I know, instep conditioning is a matter of bashing it into a suitable thingy until it hardens. Im fairly sure the top of the foot cannot be conditioned though. This is kinda why I prefer the shins. If You 'miss', Youre more likely to hit with the instep than the top of the foot. With the instep, Youll either hit with the shin, or, the top of the foot. I do not want the top of My foot hitting someone in the elbow.

+1

Chin Na has quite a few leg traps/locks that work well. Other arts as well of course. If you can get the position to trap and lock the leg it really makes a big deal towards ending the aggressiveness of someone. We use something like this once the bad guy is on the ground, kinda an X with both legs. It really puts them at a disadvantage and gives us a chance to cuff n stuff (and especially if leg shackles are being used).

Cuff n stuff made Me smile.

 

[Kframe]

I would like to come back to front kicks. I know that on the stree in SD there will be few if any kicks ill face, but in the off chance(or i step into a Cage) that i face a front kick i need options... I have been practicing and im getting better at avoiding them but i still need options for deflecting it. I have been watching alot of youtube videos on it and it seams that the popular location on the leg to deflect at is the Calf muscle.
Kong Soo do i know in all your years of H2H conflict you faced only a few kicks, and reacted with a dodge or a sprawl. I cant get past my issue with them, is what if your trying to close the gap, between him and you an he throws that front kick? Thats when im getting cuaght with kicks anymore and im getting fed up with it. Please dont take this as me devaluing your experiance with H2H, i fully understand that on the street im likely to only see haymakes and the occasional telegraphed straight. Those i can deal with, we train against them alot. Its just, i know that life often immitates art, and its not unlikely that a goblin will watch enough UFC and throw a halfarsed teep or snapping front kick or thai style round kick. I cant just ignore it in my training becuase i wont likely see it. Its stuck in my mind as one of a few things, striking wise i cant deal with and it aggrivates me to no end.

On a similar note, i no longer fear the round kick in any of its incarnations. Having been practicing against it for such a long time i know now alot more about it. Gotta intercept it at a point when its weaker. Close in before it reaches full swing, or move with the swing and move in at a angle and intercept it after its peak. Both interceptions take place at the thigh, tho catching or deflecting is optional. As at that point it wont hit you with enough force to do much dmg but it may unbalance you. My issue now is overcoming my bodies natural reaction to those circular kicks by moving out, i have to practice moving in rapidly.

Found a Good video of a Wing Chung guy, he actively uses his deflections and despite doing little dmg to his kickboxing opponent, he stood his ground and did vary well.

I did notice tho he seamed to do little damage, tho who knows, that may have been one tough sob.

 

[Cyriacus]

I would like to come back to front kicks. I know that on the stree in SD there will be few if any kicks ill face, but in the off chance(or i step into a Cage) that i face a front kick i need options... I have been practicing and im getting better at avoiding them but i still need options for deflecting it. I have been watching alot of youtube videos on it and it seams that the popular location on the leg to deflect at is the Calf muscle.
Kong Soo do i know in all your years of H2H conflict you faced only a few kicks, and reacted with a dodge or a sprawl. I cant get past my issue with them, is what if your trying to close the gap, between him and you an he throws that front kick? Thats when im getting cuaght with kicks anymore and im getting fed up with it. Please dont take this as me devaluing your experiance with H2H, i fully understand that on the street im likely to only see haymakes and the occasional telegraphed straight. Those i can deal with, we train against them alot. Its just, i know that life often immitates art, and its not unlikely that a goblin will watch enough UFC and throw a halfarsed teep or snapping front kick or thai style round kick. I cant just ignore it in my training becuase i wont likely see it. Its stuck in my mind as one of a few things, striking wise i cant deal with and it aggrivates me to no end.

On a similar note, i no longer fear the round kick in any of its incarnations. Having been practicing against it for such a long time i know now alot more about it. Gotta intercept it at a point when its weaker. Close in before it reaches full swing, or move with the swing and move in at a angle and intercept it after its peak. Both interceptions take place at the thigh, tho catching or deflecting is optional. As at that point it wont hit you with enough force to do much dmg but it may unbalance you. My issue now is overcoming my bodies natural reaction to those circular kicks by moving out, i have to practice moving in rapidly.

Found a Good video of a Wing Chung guy, he actively uses his deflections and despite doing little dmg to his kickboxing opponent, he stood his ground and did vary well.

I did notice tho he seamed to do little damage, tho who knows, that may have been one tough sob.

Oh, you just want a simple defense? Can do.
If it comes in below the chest, leg check. If it comes in above, bash it with a forearm.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Simple kick defense? If it's below the waist, jam it. If it's above, catch it. Now raise it up. Higher. A little higher. See how they fall down?
For rear leg kicks, you can also counter with a front leg sidekick. Very fast, and allows them to add their power to yours.
The list goes on...

 

[K-man]

I go away for three weeks without Internet and these great discussions start!


I would like to add a small point. From a karate perspective (and by karate's influence on TKD, TKD also), karate originally had strong Kung fu influence. The hands were closed when karate began to be taught to school children. Prior to this time karate was more 'open hand'. There are several reasons for this, not the least that a relaxed arm with open hand can respond more rapidly than a a tensed arm with a clenched fist. If you then replace the closed hand with an open hand you find far more practical uses for any given technique.


This also translates into the carriage hand. In many instances, grabbing is counter productive. If you grab someone's arm, for example, it actually takes a conscious effort and time to release it. If the hand is open it can still control an opponent's arm, without the need to grip. 'Kake Uke' would be a good example ('Chudan Uke' also if the hand was left open). So, as the hand is drawn back to the carriage position. it may be just drawing (by hooking) the attacker's arm down as the 'blocking' hand is actually striking.


Now, in relation to the kicks. Front kicks in particular are fast. If they are not telegraphed, I don't believe many people could react in time to perform a 'traditional' TMA 'block'. It is extremely difficult when you know that the kick is coming. I would suggest it is almost impossible when the kick is unexpected. However, trained reflexes are a different matter. Reacting instinctively to turn the body and use a relaxed arm will deflect most kicks with little chance of injury to the arm, even against a shin kick (which is the main kick I teach). But even then, outside of a sporting situation, I don't believe kicks present a great threat in the SD situation. If you have distance, an untrained attacker will telegraph his kick, and, if you are training your MA for SD, you will be instinctively closing. At close range most people don't know how to kick. :asian: