Thoughts on TMA blocks. A discussion.

[Kframe]

I keep hearing that the real blocking hand is the one that is being chambered and lowered to the side. How is that so? During the entire sequence of the block its nowhere near the attacking limb to be blocked. I would love some clairification on this.
Secondly if its sLossed to be grabbing something why is it chambered so low? Looking at the movements I do not see any opening for a throw. Even if there is the other hand still has to deal with defending is deflecting the incoming attack.

If there not deflections why are they still called uke(ru) or to receive? If their purpose is not to defend why keep them in the art under a name that suggests deflecting/defending? Why keep them at all
Their are more efficient ways to uppercut someone then with the rising block. Certainly better ways to attack the lower body then with the lower block.

Why didn't the founders of your arts leave detailed writings about the proper usages of these apparently controversial blocks/deflections. To pick on boxing their are books and manuals going back along time detailing moves and defenses.
Look at pre-1867 bare knuckle boxing. They had blocks and deflections that according to the pictures in the manuals looked a lot like the TMA deflections and were intact used as such.

 

[jks9199]

Why didn't the founders of your arts leave detailed writings about the proper usages of these apparently controversial blocks/deflections. To pick on boxing their are books and manuals going back along time detailing moves and defenses.
Look at pre-1867 bare knuckle boxing. They had blocks and deflections that according to the pictures in the manuals looked a lot like the TMA deflections and were intact used as such.

Before you go too far down the "whys" here... Remember that you're looking at very different cultures. In some cases, very different levels of literacy. You can't simply say Eurpeans left all this; where are the Asian equivalents? They didn't work that way, so you won't find them. Just as an idea, compare Miyamato Musashi's Book of Five Rings with any of the boxing or combat manuals.

 

[Kframe]

I dont want to sound combative here guys. I do see what your saying. I think honestly were on a similar page. Im not advocating the formal basic movements be used for SD. AS was noted they are unnatural motions. I feel it is the concept behind them, the principals. When im at practice, and we do our defense practice, the moves become almost un recognizeable from the formal basic versions. Thats due to our training them in a gross motor fashion. We dont do much of the basic formal drills, infact i do them at home on my own time. I bet if we sat down and looked at each others defenses we would find we probably are doing similar things to avoid being hit.

Now as you all know boxing is the foremost art i have time in training. Evasion is paramount, but can be effected with as little as a head movement or with half the body starting at the hips. In my position its important for me to learn deflections cuase im no longer training a sport art. I cant rely on the boxing face sheild to be my primary defense. Its not that the move wont work with out gloves on, it will, its just i run the risk of fracture of my carpal bones in my hand. So for me, i have to move beyond the sheild into something else. You cant evade all shots, at somepoint you need to either absorb it, or deflect it to get the opening you need.

 

[lklawson]

I keep hearing that the real blocking hand is the one that is being chambered and lowered to the side. How is that so? During the entire sequence of the block its nowhere near the attacking limb to be blocked. I would love some clairification on this.

Chris and I have been having a discussion about this in another thread. Here's the commonly cited movement sequence.

Traditional Understanding as is Commonly Taught
(assume a right handed high block)
Movement 1: The right hand traverses to the left hip or side while the body twists slightly to the right and the feet come (more or less) together. This is said to be chambering the arm, preparing it for a strong block.
Movement 2: The right foot steps forward, and the right fist moves up and out, away from the hip into a "roof" style bock. This is the blocking portion.

Heretical Two-Part, Parry-Strike Version Advocated by People Like Me
Movement 1: The right hand traverses to the left side of the body, while the body slightly twists to the left. This is a parry. The right hand is parrying a linear punch to the left side of the body, and winding up for a power shot riposte.
Movement 2: The right hand is unleashed forward and up in a rising hammerfist/backfist blow to the attacker's chin or face.

See, the problem with the chamber-then-block idea is that it's too slow to ever work in sparring, never mind an actual fight.

The advantage of the Parry-Strike version is that 1) it works and 2) it is well documented in several similar systems, including western Boxing.

Admittedly, not everyone agrees with this interpretation but that's the description of it that you were requesting.

Why didn't the founders of your arts leave detailed writings about the proper usages of these apparently controversial blocks/deflections. To pick on boxing their are books and manuals going back along time detailing moves and defenses.
Look at pre-1867 bare knuckle boxing. They had blocks and deflections that according to the pictures in the manuals looked a lot like the TMA deflections and were intact used as such.

Different cultures. Western cultures, particularly during the 19th Century and onward, had a different idea about what constitutes "secret" information. Most individual fighting styles and techniques, ranging from unarmed up through knives and swords, weren't on that list.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Kong Soo Do]

In regards to the chambered hand, what we often teach/use is that it has grasped a limb (elbow, forearm, wrist, fingers or possibly upper torso or leg) and has brought it into your center which will then unbalance your attacker and set him up for whatever appropriate follow up strike. As an example, I do this movement all the time when I reach out and grasp the wrist of a bad guy, twist his arm (as I'm rotating my wrist from a 'palm down' to a 'palm up' position, and bring my hand back into my center (hip area) This twists his arm which rotates his arm up into the shoulder and down into his waist which changes his body positioning, breaks his balance and moves his upper body into a downward position. That is the 'chambering' hand. The other hand, actually the forearm, is brought from 'outside' to inside' across my torso and into the back of the bad guys arm above the elbow. The result is an arm bar and/or takedown. Now in a line drill, you stand there, chamber the hand on the hip and 'block' with your forearm, doing the standard 10-count for each side. So the idea is that the bad guy is throwing a punch at you, and you impact his arm (block) with your forearm and then punch him with your chambered hand. Only problem of course...no one does this outside of a line drill with an imaginary attacker. And it doesn't work as a TMA block because it is actually an arm bar and not a block. The same thing can be said of the high block and low block. The high block is often taught as blocking an incoming attack above your head like the downward hammer fist or blunt object or knife. As an edged weapon instructor who has been in edged weapon altercations, using a 'high block' to defend against an edged weapon attack is less than optimal. That's being nice. Using a high block against a real bad guy with an edged weapon is going to get you hurt and/or killed. Why? Because it isn't a high block and isn't designed to defend against this sort of attack. It's like using a tire iron to cut your grass, wrong tool for the job. Now the 'high block' works wonderfully as a forearm ram to the upper torso and/or an off balancing movement to take the bad guy to the ground. Same thing for 'low blocks'. Often taught as a defense against a kick. It isn't. Oh, it looks kinda sorta workable in the dojo/dojang. In real life...nope. The low block makes a great hammer fist to the lower body of the attacker though as he's taken off balance by the 'chambering' hand. Also a great set up for a throw or even a sweep using the arm to the legs.

I suppose the bottom line, for me, is effectiveness. I stopped counting my uses-of-force after 300. In all that time I've never used a TMA block as a TMA block. I've used the same movements as described above (and more) to great effect.

 

[Kframe]

Kong soo do, about the last picture, with the lower block against the front kick. I agree that one should first attempt a dodge of the attacks that are coming in. My question is there are times when you are cuaght off gaurd, or are to close or not fast enough to evade the kick. Now, using a front kick like that one shown above(or a mid level MT teep) It is to high for my legs to defend it. My moderate power sparring has born this out to me many atime. When closing with my opponent(at the time a wtf tkd black belt) he would unleash that exact front kick at me and i would end up eating. Now granted not alot becuase sometimes i can evade it. In your system, what is the answere for the front kick if not the lower block? I understand your concern about arm breaking, i want to avoid that. Please remember i frame that question under the premis of either i cant evade it or im cuaght of guard by it, or im trying to close the gap. If you could apply that same question to a mid level round kick i would be greatly appreciated, cuase I know the low block wont work on the shin bone thats suicide.

Concerning the low block tho, i have found a use for it that i think it is great for. My coach is drilling the deflections by actually throwing light power punches at random parts of my body. Now i know everyone has a different stance, so take this with a grain of salt, but with MY stance i find it to work very well for haymakers aimed low.(my fight stance is not real low but not upright either) Like low ribs and maybe a bit lower. I have found it to work well on straights aimed lower as well. From my fight stance, we dont do the chambering thing tho, im told to keep my hand up to protect my face and to work it into a counter. I think it has its place, at least the way im tuaght it, as a low punch defense, but thats conditioned on how your tuaght it. What is your thoughts on this, was it my more upright stance that made it work on low punches, or some fluke?

I have been working on the Parry as described above actually, we use it as part of a trap. The sequence is parry trap, into five swords. Im having trouble with the parry part of it tho. I keep wanting to grab with the parry hand instead of the supporting hand. Any tips on overcoming that issue?

My instructor is also a knife combat instructor(military trained). We did a lesson last class on Basic knife defense and he was demonstrating a high lvl move. It was against a downward knife strike, and the first part of the move looked alot like the upper block you talked about. Except that it became a arm trap to a Key lock ending with the knife arm behind their back. It was fast and seamed effective to me, my "knife" did not reach him. So what is your opinion of a overhead knife defense? Im geniounly curious as i want to learn all i can and be a well rounded combatives martial artist.

Thanks all for the valid input.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Kong soo do, about the last picture, with the lower block against the front kick. I agree that one should first attempt a dodge of the attacks that are coming in. My question is there are times when you are cuaght off gaurd, or are to close or not fast enough to evade the kick. Now, using a front kick like that one shown above(or a mid level MT teep) It is to high for my legs to defend it. My moderate power sparring has born this out to me many atime. When closing with my opponent(at the time a wtf tkd black belt) he would unleash that exact front kick at me and i would end up eating. Now granted not alot becuase sometimes i can evade it. In your system, what is the answere for the front kick if not the lower block? I understand your concern about arm breaking, i want to avoid that. Please remember i frame that question under the premis of either i cant evade it or im cuaght of guard by it, or im trying to close the gap. If you could apply that same question to a mid level round kick i would be greatly appreciated, cuase I know the low block wont work on the shin bone thats suicide.

You've raised a couple of good questions (above and knife defense). Let me tackle the first question above, I may have to address the second later due to an appointment. Do people attack with a front kick? Yes. However, I would add the caveat that it isn't a typical attack outside of the school/sparring. In otherwords, in the school we 'attack' our opponent using the front kick...kinda because it is part of the curriculum, not because it is a common attack. Again, not saying it doesn't or can't happen, but I'm addressing the commonality of the attack as opposed to the good ole fashioned haymaker/sucker punch. Now in the uses-of-force I've been involved in over the years (nearly 23 now with the S.O. and 8 before that in the military), I have seen perhaps less than a dozen attacks that use some form of 'front kick'. Typically, rather than the opponent being in the classic 'en guard' stance, they are in a sitting position while being interviewed or controlled by another Deputy (or me). They then kick out after having braced themselves. This has happened to me a few times. I have faced the occasional martial artist that is also a bad guy, or drunk or stoned etc. But I honestly can't remember a time I've been attacked with the classic front kick, or for that matter the side, round or snap kick either. Again, not saying it can't happen, only that in my experience I just haven't seen it enough to consider it a 'top shelf' attacking movement. I can't be dogmatic about it and others may have different experience outside of the school. Now, what I have seen when this attack has happened to me or other Deputies I'm with is that the body goes into the flinch response as described above. They generally sprawl backwards or to the side. Now, to be clear, if one is caught totally off-guard and doesn't see it coming in any way, or if there is no room at all to move then you're going to eat it. That goes with any attack. But when it has been seen, straight on or periphreal vision, I've generally seen people sprawl in some fashion regardless of their level of training. Personally, I have used my leg to block the kick if on the left side of my body, and generally caught/trapped the kick (with my arms)if incoming on my right side. I have tended to sprawl if incoming on my right side and move into the kick if incoming on my left. That is just me and the way I react.

As far as teaching, I see what the student's natural reaction is going to be and usually use close quarters or grappling distances. I demonstrate trapping, movement, force-on-force (if the leg has been conditioned) and natural flinch/sprawling. I like to tailor this (and most instruction) to the individual student and avoid cookie-cutter options. I have been thus far successful in defending against kicks from bad guys. But that really doesn't mean much to an individual student in that they may not react as I do or have the experience that I do (not a boast!). So I generally teach them several options and then run them through the paces to see what THEY are going to do if/when it happens.

Just some thoughts to toss out there. I'll get back on the knife stuff, I have a couple of L.E. edged weapon instructor certs and really feel good about this area. I'll probably need more time than I have at the moment to get into it.

 

[Kframe]

Kong Soo Do, i wait with Baited breath friend. I asked my coach his opinion on the lower block and he totaly agrees with you that it is NOT a kick defense at all, but a very good punch defense. I repped that and all my other blocks, plus our basic(it gets advanced as ranks improve) haymaker defense aggressively tonight.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

My instructor is also a knife combat instructor(military trained). We did a lesson last class on Basic knife defense and he was demonstrating a high lvl move. It was against a downward knife strike, and the first part of the move looked alot like the upper block you talked about. Except that it became a arm trap to a Key lock ending with the knife arm behind their back. It was fast and seamed effective to me, my "knife" did not reach him. So what is your opinion of a overhead knife defense? Im geniounly curious as i want to learn all i can and be a well rounded combatives martial artist.

Thanks all for the valid input.

The question I would encourage anyone/everyone to ask of their instructors is simply this; how do you know this works against a violent, resisting attacker? I think that is a fair question if the consideration is self-defense. Has the instructor had any experience against violent, restisting opponents? How much experience? Did that experience include the particular technique/principle in question? What was the result? If they haven't had any first-hand experience, who in their lineage of instructors has had experience? Again, when self-defense is the issue at hand, I think these are fair and reasonable questions. Another question that is reasonable is; does this technique/principle have any 'real-world' documentation as to its level of effectiveness? For example, the edged weapon system I referrenced above comes from the late Peter Boatman (which very probably came from Darren Laur). Statistically, in Great Britain, Officers were getting injured around 86% of the time they were in an edged weapon altercation. Within two years of this edged weapon defense system being implemented, that % dropped to around 17% injury rate. That is a substantial drop in Officer related injuries. Additionally, since the system is simple and based upon finch/gross motor skill, the retention rate in long term memory was found to be substantial (2 years before refresher training was needed). That also is a substantial point.

Now, that isn't to say that other edged weapon defense systems aren't also very effective. But the question I always ask is, 'how do we actually know it is effective'? Is there documentation? First-hand accounts? What were the Officer/subject factors?

I'm going to be making a video of the edged weapon system that I learned from Boatman, along with other principles from our system. I need to make it for our association in preparation for our next annual seminar. If you're interested, I'll let you know when it is done so you can take a look at it (probably on the IKSDA website or youtube). It is the system our agency (and several others in our area) use for edged weapon defense.

 

[Kframe]

Kong, well im not sure who developed the US military knife combat system, but that is who taught him, he has his paperwork, and he told me his intructors name but it escapes me now. I would be interested in watching your video when it comes out. Any and all information i can get is valuable to me, i learn from all sources.

 

[lklawson]

Kong, well im not sure who developed the US military knife combat system,

Which one? There have been several. Biddle and Styres are the most well.known but there have been any number since.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Kframe]

Im not sure, its part of a overall combat system that he learned. At my level of training tho, the who's and whats's are less inportant. One thing we do in practice tho is drill the move ALOT. Then twords the end of the lesson we rep what ever it is were learning that day with a fully resisting and fighting back opponent. Every thing coach teaches us, is always rammed home with sparring it against a opponent fighting back, and hitting back.

 

[Cyriacus]

Kong Soo Do, i wait with Baited breath friend. I asked my coach his opinion on the lower block and he totaly agrees with you that it is NOT a kick defense at all, but a very good punch defense. I repped that and all my other blocks, plus our basic(it gets advanced as ranks improve) haymaker defense aggressively tonight.

Id like to join in on this discussion.
Im my experience, a low block is a good defense against a body punch, or any kick to the body. But with the kick to the body, its used a bit differently. You need to have a solid guard, which would have stopped the kick on its own. The low block is then used to bash it aside, to make it easier to retaliate.
So, for example, if someone executes a roundhouse kick to the body, which would potentially hit you in the arm, you can then low block it anyway, then retaliate.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Id like to join in on this discussion.
Im my experience, a low block is a good defense against a body punch, or any kick to the body. But with the kick to the body, its used a bit differently. You need to have a solid guard, which would have stopped the kick on its own. The low block is then used to bash it aside, to make it easier to retaliate.
So, for example, if someone executes a roundhouse kick to the body, which would potentially hit you in the arm, you can then low block it anyway, then retaliate.

Okay, lets say an attacker is executing an attack against you using a roundhouse kick. As you mention, it could potentially strike you in the arm (and I would add the outer thigh upwards to the lower ribs as a target area or zone). What part of their leg to you expect to impact against the target area in question? Would you expect their shin, instep or perhaps their toes (some arts like Pangainoon/Uechi use the toes as a striking surface)?

 

[Kframe]

Well As of right now, in my short span of training(1 year) i can only offer this to the round kick defense. I brought this very subject up last session with coach. So we repped a drill that involves stepping in and to the side and scooping the round kick. The part of the leg we are looking to scoop is the thigh area, hence the step in as we scoop. Coach says if we try to scoop the shin we will break our arms, for the shin is alot harder and thicker then the arms. Which is why he dosent like the low block for kicks, it tends to place the forearm vs the shin and the forearm will always lose that fight.

Now im not skilled enough yet(or confident enough) to do that at more then drill speed. I expect as my training increases ill be able to do it on faster harder round kicks.

Front kicks IMHO will have less power then a round kick, and blocking(deflecting) with the flat of the forearm(puts both bones into play, dispersing the energy) is less risky and could work. Tho i think you again must avoid the shin, either intercept at the foot ankle, or step in and do the thigh. Tho my coach on that topic, says if he has to deflect a front kick, he will use his open hand to do it instead of his arms.

 

[Cyriacus]

Okay, lets say an attacker is executing an attack against you using a roundhouse kick. As you mention, it could potentially strike you in the arm (and I would add the outer thigh upwards to the lower ribs as a target area or zone). What part of their leg to you expect to impact against the target area in question? Would you expect their shin, instep or perhaps their toes (some arts like Pangainoon/Uechi use the toes as a striking surface)?

Id expect anything from the shin to the top of the foot, since range and preference would play a part in that. If theyre kicking with the toes, im not sure how much difference that would make against a block to the leg.
Ill also add, quickly, that in My presented hypothetical, Youre also stepping in slightly as You block.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Id expect anything from the shin to the top of the foot, since range and preference would play a part in that. If theyre kicking with the toes, im not sure how much difference that would make against a block to the leg.
Ill also add, quickly, that in My presented hypothetical, Youre also stepping in slightly as You block.

I'd like to offer some thoughts here, keep in mind this is only my opinion and based upon my training. Please keep in mind I'm discussing this from strictly a SD perspective rather than competition. YMMV

First, I would suggest that kicking with the instep isn't the safest, or most practical impact area of the leg. There are a lot of variables in an offensive movement such as this that are beyond the control of the one implementing the kick i.e. distance, obstacles, movement on the part of both parties involved, actual surface area impacted etc. The chance of injuring the foot (hyper-extenstion) or simply direct bruising can be pretty high depending on the variables. Footwear of course will add protection somewhat, but I will offer that it is quite different than wearing foot safety gear and impacting on other types of safety gear. It can make a great 'whack', but doesn't offer the penetration of a kick using the shin. Now, keep in mind that I've trained in arts that do body conditioning including the shins. Not all arts do this, or train shin kicks. I would, humbly, suggest that an impact with the instep is not in the same league as a kick with the shin. The shin kick is quite capable of breaking bone i.e. ulna, radius, humerous, ribs or upper leg. Secondly, as I've pointed out in other threads (and it seems Kframe's coach is on the same sheet of music), the shin vs. the ulna or radius bone just isn't a fair trade off. Thirdly, if someone is actively trying to shin kick you, they probably know 'something'. I would not want to be offering them my arm in a force-on-force exchange with my forearm. I've conditioned my forearms and I still wouldn't not want to go arm-on-leg. For that matter, I've gone shin-on-shin with a good kicker. Unfortunately, he didn't condition his shins, or perhaps I should say fortunately for me he didn't. As it turns out, I had a red mark and he was doubled up on the ground holding his leg. Not a superman boast on my part, its just when you condition your shins with bowling pins, tires, other people kicking you etc you tend to build up some tolerance in those areas.

I do agree with you on stepping into the attack. This prevents it from reaching its maximal velocity and power. If one is able to step in effectively, and sometimes it can be a big step in, you can trap the leg, turning them into a one-legged fighter. In this regard, I would almost prefer them to be a good kicker as they would probably get more heighth in their kick, making it easier to trap (you don't have to bend down so far, taking yourself of center).

Good topic. Good discussion

 

[bluewaveschool]

You left out ball of the foot as a striking surface of the roundhouse. Toes, really? Ouch.

 

[bluewaveschool]

Oh, supposedly on tuesday night someone is bringing me a video camera, I'll try to film a few uses of the rising block and post them.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

You left out ball of the foot as a striking surface of the roundhouse. Toes, really? Ouch.

Good point...no pun intended

Pangainoon/Uechi and some other arts specialize in toe kicks for the penetration factor. Keep in mind that their foot/toes are usually...um, not the most attractive around! Too be honest, this is one part I never got around to conditioning. It is impressive to see them break through stuff with their toes, but I figured I'd normally have shoes on so didn't see the point in mangling...I'm mean conditioning my toes.