Myths of the Martial Arts: A Black Belt Is a Master

[Dirty Dog]

Or you can go the other direction and realize that a 5 year old with a black belt, for example, has no real effect on you and does not in any way diminish or cheapen your own accomplishments.

A 5 year old black belt, while silly, doesn't bother me nearly as much as people who are convinced a black belt turns you into a Super Secret Ninja Dude who can deflect throwing stars with their earlobes.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Or you can go the other direction and realize that a 5 year old with a black belt, for example, has no real effect on you and does not in any way diminish or cheapen your own accomplishments.

If anything, the five year old black belt serves as an agent of demystification. And personally, I think that that is what really bothers those who rail against it the loudest.

 

[seasoned]

The biggest mistake a sensei can make is to build a student up to something their not.

 

[chrispillertkd]

If anything, the five year old black belt serves as an agent of demystification.

Demystification or a self-fulling prophecy that rank isn't just unimportant but meaningless? People love to talk about how unimportant rank is. If that's true give the kid a 10th dan and be done with it.

And personally, I think that that is what really bothers those who rail against it the loudest.

It would really depend on the person, I think. Personally, I think 5 year old black belts are silly. But not because they "demystify" what black belt really means. There's a specific meaning to black belt in the ITF and it certainly isn't anything "mystical." Gen. Choi sets out a pretty pragmatic explanation about the significance of I dan, which I have already posted. Nothing to demystify.

If another martial art or style of TKD wants to have black belts who just learned to tie their shoes more power to them.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

It would really depend on the person, I think. Personally, I think 5 year old black belts are silly. But not because they "demystify" what black belt really means.

I agree 100%, but then you don't rail vociferously about the subject either.

 

[chrispillertkd]

I agree 100%, but then you don't rail vociferously about the subject either.

What good would it do?

There are always going to be people who will promote anyone to any rank for any reason. That may or may not influence how people view my rank. The only thing I can do is make sure I endeavor to be worthy of the rank I hold as determined by the organization to which I belong and the instructor under whom I train and who tested me.

The fact is, however, that people can say rank is unimportant all they want but that doesn't mean they believe it. They certainly don't act like it is. I will not say it's unimportant. Is it the most important thing in martial arts training? Not by a long shot. But until we can have threads here where 5 year olds are getting 8th dans and people are congratulating the little whipper-snapper instead of lamenting his promotion I will continue to believe that much (not all) of the talk about the unimportance of rank is a bunch of nonsense. The reaction demonstrates the falsity of the proposition.

And note, I am denigrating neither the reaction nor the belief. I'm just pointing out that people don't behave like they do.

Pax,

Chris

 

[chinto]

I do not like the idea of a 5 year old black belt. Not because of "demystification" but because I expect a certain level of ability and competence at that rank. Like some have said, an advanced beginner, but one capable of a particular level of both technique and ability to apply that technique practically in a defensive encounter if needed.

the Idea that some how a shodan makes some one an expert is ridiculous to me! now start talking about a sandan or yondan or godan and we can talk about it perhaps.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I do not like the idea of a 5 year old black belt. Not because of "demystification" but because I expect a certain level of ability and competence at that rank. Like some have said, an advanced beginner, but one capable of a particular level of both technique and ability to apply that technique practically in a defensive encounter if needed.

For the record, I am not crazy about the idea of five year old black belts either. As far as people who don't like it due to demystification, these are the ones who insert pages of negative posts anytime the subject is mentioned, frequently shouting the mantra, 'they make me look bad!' in some fashion or another. If you (the general you) are that concerned about how a five year old black belt makes you look, then you have an ego issue or have an unrealistic image of what a black belt/first dan really symbolizes.

the Idea that some how a shodan makes some one an expert is ridiculous to me! now start talking about a sandan or yondan or godan and we can talk about it perhaps.

Agree.

 

[puunui]

Demystification or a self-fulling prophecy that rank isn't just unimportant but meaningless? People love to talk about how unimportant rank is. If that's true give the kid a 10th dan and be done with it.

Or we can do away with the system of rank entirely. Either way, the 10th dan to a kid doesn't change or affect my own spot on the journey, and frankly it doesn't change that kid's place either.

It would really depend on the person, I think. Personally, I think 5 year old black belts are silly. But not because they "demystify" what black belt really means. There's a specific meaning to black belt in the ITF and it certainly isn't anything "mystical." Gen. Choi sets out a pretty pragmatic explanation about the significance of I dan, which I have already posted. Nothing to demystify.

A lot of people don't like children black belts because they feel their own accomplishments are somehow cheapened if a kid can get it too.

 

[puunui]

The biggest mistake a sensei can make is to build a student up to something their not.

And one way a sensei does that is to overly value rank, especially black belt ranks, such that children aren't allowed to receive them.

 

[seasoned]

The belt never makes the person, but to the contrary, the person always makes the belt. I personally believe in age limits, character, maturity then capability, in this order. I consider a shodan an apprentice in training, and where the learning really begins.

 

[dancingalone]

have an unrealistic image of what a black belt/first dan really symbolizes.[/B]

I wouldn't say unrealistic. There is no agreement at all on what a black belt means, how long it should take to get one, etc. Let's face it - the people who argue vociferously that 1st dan is a low rank with corresponding low expectations are about as right as those who disagree with them. It's all subjective anyway, and everyone can have an opinion. It's easy enough to reverse the equation and say the people you disagree with are the unrealistic ones. And who would be right? No one, everyone.

I wouldn't promote a 5 year old to BB, and I'll freely tell anyone listening or reading that. Not because I am worried about demystifying martial arts. Not necessarily because my ego is hurt over them, though I'll admit some personal pain over the general evolution of martial arts into a direction I dislike. Like most who share my stance, I'd prefer for the rank to be difficult to obtain, to represent a good level of achievement in skill, rather than some low bar of 'learned the basics' whatever that means. I don't think the people here on MT (I'm thinking of 1 or 2 members who might fit your description of inserting pages of commentary on kiddie BBs) care anything at all about mysticism and awe and attaching those qualities to a BB.

 

[dancingalone]

A lot of people don't like children black belts because they feel their own accomplishments are somehow cheapened if a kid can get it too.

It depends on the material studied. A child could probably earn a BB in a primarily striking system very legitimately, if they're not required to be proficient in negating, managing, and controlling a larger antagonist. Crank up the material content along with asking the students to be effective against larger people, and it becomes more and more dubious.

 

[seasoned]

Lets all please keep in mind, that we were that shodan once. Hind sight is always 20/20, and I remember that 23 yr old expert called me. But, humility and the help of my sensei, always reminded me that there was much much more to learn. Any sensei that are reading, do right by your students, and train them for the long hull, and in 40 or 50 years they will thank you for it. If not in person, then in spirit. :asian:

 

[puunui]

It depends on the material studied. A child could probably earn a BB in a primarily striking system very legitimately, if they're not required to be proficient in negating, managing, and controlling a larger antagonist.

Which describes taekwondo. Having said that, are you still unwilling to award children poom rank?

 

[puunui]

Lets all please keep in mind, that we were that shodan once. Hind sight is always 20/20, and I remember that 23 yr old expert called me.

Personally, I think the students today know much more and can do more than I or any one from my generation when they make 1st Dan. We didn't know all that much, at least with respect to taekwondo.

 

[puunui]

Like most who share my stance, I'd prefer for the rank to be difficult to obtain, to represent a good level of achievement in skill, rather than some low bar of 'learned the basics' whatever that means.

If you make 1st dan difficult, then what about the higher dan levels? Does it get increasingly more difficult to the point where anything over 4th or 5th dan is pretty much unattainable? 1st dan is a low rank, but only in comparison to 9th Dan. 9th Dan is the bar, 9th Dan is the ultimate, not 1st Dan.

 

[seasoned]

Personally, I think the students today know much more and can do more than I or any one from my generation when they make 1st Dan. We didn't know all that much, at least with respect to taekwondo.

Pertaining to Okinawan goju, the kata always held the secrets, and have never changed. Up to shodan the kata were practiced the way they were taught, but in the black belt levels, the layers were peeled back to expose a whole new art within the art. Very cool stuff..........

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

This...

I wouldn't say unrealistic.

is unrelated to this...

There is no agreement at all on what a black belt means, how long it should take to get one, etc.

Which I agree with. But that wasn't what I meant by 'unrealistic.'

Let's face it - the people who argue vociferously that 1st dan is a low rank with corresponding low expectations are about as right as those who disagree with them. It's all subjective anyway, and everyone can have an opinion. It's easy enough to reverse the equation and say the people you disagree with are the unrealistic ones. And who would be right? No one, everyone.

That has absolutely nothing to do with the context of my comment.

I wouldn't promote a 5 year old to BB, and I'll freely tell anyone listening or reading that. Not because I am worried about demystifying martial arts. Not necessarily because my ego is hurt over them, though I'll admit some personal pain over the general evolution of martial arts into a direction I dislike. Like most who share my stance, I'd prefer for the rank to be difficult to obtain, to represent a good level of achievement in skill, rather than some low bar of 'learned the basics' whatever that means. I don't think the people here on MT (I'm thinking of 1 or 2 members who might fit your description of inserting pages of commentary on kiddie BBs) care anything at all about mysticism and awe and attaching those qualities to a BB.

I don't disagree with you, but you, and those who feel as you do, are not the group that I was referring to.

I wasn't specifically limiting my comment to MT posters; I actually interact MA related people outside of this forum and lurk in other forums, as well as interacting with people offline.

However, the bolded part of your post would fall within the context of my comment. Though I am not targeting or calling them out specifically, inserting pages of specifically antagonistic and inflammatory commentary is what I mean by 'rail vociferously in the context of MT.'

 

[dancingalone]

Daniel, all I am saying is that it's quite possible for reasonable people to disagree, especially on subjects such as the meaning and value attached to a black belt. The people you think have unrealistic ideas likely would say the same thing about their friends on the opposite aisle. Anyone can be 'right' about this. It's not a concrete thing like a math equation.