Myths of the Martial Arts: A Black Belt Is a Master

[seasoned]

I think anyone that tries to make blanket statements about rank such as this one is basically clueless about the greater martial arts community. Then again, I consider black belt magazine to be pretty much clueless itself, so I probably shouldn't have commented.

I still have BB magazines going back to the late 70s. I still thumb though them on occasion, with some of the articles still interesting.

 

[seasoned]

I think the idea of a "master" is not a static concept as in mastery = having reached a benchmark. I think these terms such as "master" should be provable outside the confines of a single school. That title should be reserved for those in the highest percentiles of proficiency across the entirety of practitioners. In which case, to answer the question, is a BB a master, I think it depends upon the others that are underneath that bell curve of proficiency. If everyone within that distribution is unassailably proficient then it may take more than a BB to claim master status - in other words, claiming master status in the face of others that are exceedingly proficient may be foolish.

Jenna, in you're opinion, how would this equate to an individual that trained most of their life, but was in their 60s or 70s. As a comparison, that person would not be able to physically do what he could when they were younger, but would now possess a greater knowledge and understanding.

 

[Buka]

I think the title of this thread is the truest statement of all.

 

[Steve]

I think the title of this thread is the truest statement of all.

But that's really not true for all styles. Is it?

Another thing for the group. Do you guys think that this myth is encouraged or discouraged by most styles?

 

[Buka]

But that's really not true for all styles. Is it?

Another thing for the group. Do you guys think that this myth is encouraged or discouraged by most styles?

I meant the "myth' part. I believe that to be true, that a black belt being a Master, is myth.
I think that myth is encouraged by some schools (not necessary styles) and discouraged by others.

I also think that a person who reaches black belt in BJJ has a far greater likelihood of becoming a true master in martial arts than a person who reaches black belt in Karate. And, I think a person who reaches black belt in Karate has a far greater likelihood of being CALLED a master than a person who reaches black belt in BJJ.

 

[Steve]

I meant the "myth' part. I believe that to be true, that a black belt being a Master, is myth.
I think that myth is encouraged by some schools (not necessary styles) and discouraged by others.

I also think that a person who reaches black belt in BJJ has a far greater likelihood of becoming a true master in martial arts than a person who reaches black belt in Karate. And, I think a person who reaches black belt in Karate has a far greater likelihood of being CALLED a master than a person who reaches black belt in BJJ.

Yeah. Okay. I guess I can't argue with any of that!

 

[Haakon]

But that's really not true for all styles. Is it?

Another thing for the group. Do you guys think that this myth is encouraged or discouraged by most styles?

If the myth is a 1st dan is a master I think most styles try to discourage that myth and that it is continued mainly by people outside the martial arts who are ignorant of what "black belt" means. I think there are some people within the martial arts community who try to push the myth to sell their schools, but I think (I hope) they're in the minority.

 

[puunui]

If the myth is a 1st dan is a master I think most styles try to discourage that myth and that it is continued mainly by people outside the martial arts who are ignorant of what "black belt" means. I think there are some people within the martial arts community who try to push the myth to sell their schools, but I think (I hope) they're in the minority.

The Kukkiwon tries to deal with the mystique and aura of a "master" by calling all practitioners 1st-5th Poom/Dan as "master" and 6th-9th Dan as grandmaster. That way, the terminology gets demystified.

 

[Dirty Dog]

The Kukkiwon tries to deal with the mystique and aura of a "master" by calling all practitioners 1st-5th Poom/Dan as "master" and 6th-9th Dan as grandmaster. That way, the terminology gets demystified.

But to the general public, this perpetuates the myth that a 1st Dan is a master.

 

[seasoned]

If the myth is a 1st dan is a master I think most styles try to discourage that myth and that it is continued mainly by people outside the martial arts who are ignorant of what "black belt" means. I think there are some people within the martial arts community who try to push the myth to sell their schools, but I think (I hope) they're in the minority.

I would agree that there is monetary gain to be had by some schools to capitalize on this master title early on. But, I too feel that they are in the minority, but, they sure do fill their dojo's up in many cases.
This whole title thing just adds to the watering down of the martial arts, and in many ways dilutes the arts even more.

 

[puunui]

But to the general public, this perpetuates the myth that a 1st Dan is a master.

I guess that is one way of looking at it. I know when this information first came out, a lot of "master" level practitioners got really upset because they felt that the term was cheapened by calling 1st dans "master". But I notice a lot of those same people who complained about 1st dan masters had no problem calling themselves "grandmaster" if they had 6th dan. Generally in taekwondo at least, master was 5th dan (some say 4th) and grandmaster was 8th dan.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

But to the general public, this perpetuates the myth that a 1st Dan is a master.

How important is the perception of the general public to what we do?

 

[Dirty Dog]

How important is the perception of the general public to what we do?

I'm not sure, but I'd say it's middling important. I'd rather have new students who actually want to train, rather than those who think they're going to catch bullets in their teeth.



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[Daniel Sullivan]

I'm not sure, but I'd say it's middling important. I'd rather have new students who actually want to train, rather than those who think they're going to catch bullets in their teeth.

I think that you'll always have people who have unrealistic expectations about what is taught in the martial arts and there will always be people who want to have their little tyke test for a black belt. I sometimes think that the latter are a way of curing the former.

Certainly, five year old black belts definitely have a demystifying effect.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I think that you'll always have people who have unrealistic expectations about what is taught in the martial arts and there will always be people who want to have their little tyke test for a black belt. I sometimes think that the latter are a way of curing the former.

Certainly, five year old black belts definitely have a demystifying effect.

Absolutely agree that there will always be people with silly notions. That doesn't mean it's not worthwhile to try and minimize how many of them there are.


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[dancingalone]

I think that you'll always have people who have unrealistic expectations about what is taught in the martial arts and there will always be people who want to have their little tyke test for a black belt. I sometimes think that the latter are a way of curing the former.

Certainly, five year old black belts definitely have a demystifying effect.

I have no way of proving a definite cause and effect relationship , but a studio with several locations in my area closed in the early 2000s after he earned a fairly bad reputation in the area among the MA community. No one supported his tournaments any more which accelerated his losses. Many of his quickee black belts left him since they realized they were being passed through the ranks for revenue, rather than necessarily earning them. Lots of horror stories circulating around about bad business practices and generally low level of training given. Eventually even the kiddie market deserted him since the parents got fed up, and he left town owing money to various people including his property leaser.

Now did people stop dealing with him primarily because he was a poor business partner or because he ran a karate mill? I can't assign a proportional value but I think the two can be very much intertwined. Reputation matters. In both business and personal life.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I have no way of proving a definite cause and effect relationship , but a studio with several locations in my area closed in the early 2000s after he earned a fairly bad reputation in the area among the MA community. No one supported his tournaments any more which accelerated his losses. Many of his quickee black belts left him since they realized they were being passed through the ranks for revenue, rather than necessarily earning them. Lots of horror stories circulating around about bad business practices and generally low level of training given. Eventually even the kiddie market deserted him since the parents got fed up, and he left town owing money to various people including his property leaser.

I know of a school owner in a similar situation. The bolded part is what cost him his adult and older teen students. A lousy after school program coupled with hitting parents with higher fees while diminishing the quality and quantity of what was provided in return for said fees cost him the kids and his after school program.

Reputation matters.

I never said that it doesn't.

 

[dancingalone]

I never said that it doesn't.

I was responding to your question about public perception and martial arts practices. It's a two way street if we run schools that are open to the general public and are dependent on revenue to keep the doors open. If you (generic you) don't care about what laymen think, you might find yourself gaining a reputation that will constrain you later on in ways perhaps unexpected by you. It's only prudent to manage this the best you can and promote the image you want out there.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I was responding to your question about public perception and martial arts practices.

While I agree with you, I was only referring to public's general perception of the black belt and the myths associated with it.

It's a two way street if we run schools that are open to the general public and are dependent on revenue to keep the doors open. If you (generic you) don't care about what laymen think, you might find yourself gaining a reputation that will constrain you later on in ways perhaps unexpected by you.

I think that myths about what a black belt is need to be dealt with in the context of truthfulness in doing business: no, your five year old will not be able to fend off knife wielding gang members just because he has a black belt, and no, you will not be catching bullets with your teeth no matter what your degree of ranking because bullet catching is not part of our curriculum.

I think that black belt myths should be dealt with as the subject comes up, or perhaps an FAQ on what a black belt is and isn't on the school's website or in the school's literature.

But outside of a student/teacher context (or business owner/customer context), I don't concern myself with what the general public thinks a black belt means or trying to shape what they think it means. I participate in enough conversation outside of my own studio to know what sort of myths are out there and am prepared to deal with them as needed.

Referencing the schools you and I mentioned in the last couple of posts, their problems arose from bad business practices and sub par instruction, not from martial arts myths. And I feel pretty confident in saying that the same is likely true of any MA school that has a bad reputation. Abrasive/abusive personalities within the instructional staff and drama can sink a school as well.

It's only prudent to manage this the best you can and promote the image you want out there.

Definitely.

 

[puunui]

Absolutely agree that there will always be people with silly notions. That doesn't mean it's not worthwhile to try and minimize how many of them there are.

Or you can go the other direction and realize that a 5 year old with a black belt, for example, has no real effect on you and does not in any way diminish or cheapen your own accomplishments.