multiple opponent art

[Angus]

Originally posted by sweeper


Angus I agree with you for the most part, I thought you were interpreting other posts as saying that they would seek a given technique, I didn't tihnk that was the intent of the post. But as to the strengths thing, I think some times some techniques are so strong vs others being so week that you may chose one over the other, for example my 1,2 just sucks, I have never landed it period. so I use a 1,3,2 it works much much better, you might argue that this limits my veriety, well yeah it does but that's because in my case I'm 99% sure that firing a 1,3,2 will be more effective in 100% of situations than a 1,2,3 because my 1,2 is so freakin week. I train my 1,2 to get it better but I still have timming issues or something. in a situation like this where one technique vastly outshines another I can understand someone going for the one over and over (but of course that's not the only combination I use and if the other person is on the deffencive I could land a 1,2).

I understand you, and I agree completely. I think my punches as a whole aren't that great, but I train them so I can use them. However, I still prefer not to have to use them over something like a kick or an elbow. I completely agree with what you said. The only way I'd disagree is if you had said "I think my 1-2 sucks, so when I fight I'm going to go 1-3-2 to every single guy. It's the most effective, so I'll only do that." A bit exaggerated I know, but that's the sort of idea I'm against.

Obviously everyone has strengths and weaknesses in areas of technique and different techniques have different levels of powers. Both are why usually I'll throw a thai roundhouse rather than an inside crescent if I want to take someone out. Usually, though, we understand what our S's and W's are, and you compensate for them subconsciously. Luckily we train such that we can do multiple techniques from most positions on most targets, so we can use whichever suits us the best. That's a good thing, it's different than seeking a certain move (locks/submissions especially because they are even more dependent on position, which is an uncertainty/large variable).

I think we're more on the same side than it sounds, I'm just a wee bit verbose.

Hollywood, why do you address everyone as "kiddies"? You're probably younger than most of them!

 

[Hollywood1340]

Kiddies,
I enjoy it, and have done it for quite sometime. It's noticed, isn't it

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Hollywood1340

Kiddies,
I enjoy it, and have done it for quite sometime. It's noticed, isn't it

I would suggest that our young friend subscribes to the theory,"It doesn't matter what they say about you, as long as they're talking about you."

--Dave:rofl:

 

[sweeper]

yeah I would agree that we both agree in genneral, my point was there are ways to draw attacks that can be grappled, anytime you draw an attack you can intercept it with a grab, if you are fast enough you can intercept and apply an arm bar before they can realy resist, they would have to give a long extention for that to work and you would have to realy know what you are doing but you could do it, also you can just fake a jab and grab your oppoanant's hand if you want to grapple, it isn't hard to get there unless your opponant is activly resisting moving into that situation.

 

[KennethKu]

Why grap it when you can smash it? If it is within reach of your grasp , it can be smashed. Of course, the assumption is one must have the breaking power to smash an attacking limb.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by KennethKu

Why grap it when you can smash it? If it is within reach of your grasp , it can be smashed. Of course, the assumption is one must have the breaking power to smash an attacking limb.

Power? We don't need no stinking power!

Its just technique and the appropriate pressure!


7sm

 

[sweeper]

it's much easyer to grab an arm than strike it because you don't have to have power in the grabbing hand so you have alot more control, my personal choise would be to grab it than smash it, like catch the hand and smash it with my other elbow. but doing a strike on a loose arm to dammage it? that's virtualy imposable unless you are ding a direct interception (like throwing an elbow at an incomming punch) and that takes alot of acuracy and timming. pluss hyper extending the arm would be more dammaging in the short term.

(edit) almost forgot, if you can hyper extend the arm you have a very powerfull submision hold, it realy furts to have your arm hyper extended, and it's REALY painfull to have someone jerking it around and twisting it in that hyper extended position.

 

[KennethKu]

Obviously you need to condition your hands to deliver the striking power. (Especially Back fist strike in limb destruction). And to practice targeting. LOl now I understand why you think MArtists suck. The key is conditioning (or the lack of). Striking is more efficient. But if grapping works for you, more power to you.

Grapping and holding and especially pulling your opponent forward, NEED power. (Since you are in JKD, you ought to know that Bruce Lee trained his pulling grips religiously.)

From your posts, your view is that attacking the limbs is futile. You tend to discount the striking power you could train to achieve. We have different views.

In case you are not aware of this, there are plenty of cases where people have their arms broken from kicks, in sparring and competition, and even in practice. I have seen competition won with one kick to the knee. I have seen KI comp where 3 kicks to the thigh and the fight was over.

 

[KennethKu]

Sweeper, Check this out. It is American Kempo, good illustration of striking nonetheless. Besides, in JKD, there is no such thing as Non-JKD .( Anything that works can and will be stolen and claimed as JKD's very own ) Note: you don't need to break anything to strike for effect. But you do need to condition for striking power.


http://www.akki.com/_videos/index.htm

 

[Jay Bell]

Originally posted by Hollywood1340

Kiddie(s)
Neither Judo nor JJ are mutiple opponent arts. Granted Judo and some forns of JJ can be used as such, relying on them soely in a situation with more then one attacker is ill advised. However judo in combination with a strking art such as AKK can prove..how do you say, very unhealthy to your attackers.

Incorrect. Many Jujutsu ryuha were originally created to be specifically multiple attacker arts. Shinden Fudo ryu being one of them. Keep in mind...this was battlefield fighting. You ever seen a battlefield that was one on one? Jujutsu is NOT BJJ...BJJ is one-on-one...Japan's reasons for Jujutsu did not include an octagon ring.

 

[theneuhauser]

what sort of moves did these ryuha use to the multiple opponent effect?

 

[Jay Bell]

Historically, methods were practiced against a group of people, not one-on-one.

 

[theneuhauser]

yes, i understood that part of your previous post. do you know any examples of the methodology behind the battlefield jujutsu, what the heck was it?

 

[sweeper]

KennethKu I didn't say striking was useless, I was simply pointing out the strength of grappling. my experience is that when you are under stress you don't think as clearly and your technique realy suffers, so I go with what I can do best. (for me that's kicking kneeing and elbows) I'm not sure what you mean by condition my hands, do you mean work on acuracy?

hitting an arm out of the air off a strike is VERY hard, it takes alot of skill to do. What's the advantage? why not go the simply road? I know striking the arm can be effective, we practice it in jkd, all I'm saying is it isn't easy by any means (unless someone's feeding you) and after you do it the first time, unless it leads to a fight ending combo, they are gona know you go for it and will try to draw you with feints.

 

[KennethKu]

Ok, in JKD, how do you deflect attack? Rear hand parrying, right? When you parry, you hand makes contact. So, instead of just pushing the attack away, just smash it with your fist, hammer fist (side fist), or back fist or if you are up to it, knife hand. Now of course, you need to punch on heavy bag to condition your hands. Better yet, train on a gravel bag.

Now if you resort to grapping and pulling your opponent toward you and smashing his face with your lead hand, that is one effective method too. But that would need pulling power.

 

[sweeper]

ok, that AKKI page doesn't realy facilitate your point, they are striking an un-resisting opponant.. I men unless you show me a real fight with two skilled fighters it isn't gona show that someone can execute a destructive interception, and even if they had shown that, those are very skilled people there, you don't get that way over night and that isn't gona be usefull for a long time. I have never seen a live interception like what you are talking about, I realy don't think it's something to be relied apon.

As to blocking in JKD but most of them include simultanious attack, so you block and jab. however, blocking isn't realy a big deal in my JKD class. In my class there is a diffrence between blocking and parrying.. a parry is an interception where you move your arm on the same course that your opponant's arm is comming at you, usualy this takes the form of a hand bat like in boxing. Blocking is when you let a blow hit you but you try to minimise dammage by bringing up a tight guard.. parrying with full power is next to imposable.. and unless there is something preventing the limb from moving you have the problem if the arm just swinging out of the way on contact (sapping the power out).

 

[KennethKu]

JKD uses parrying to the total exclusion of blocking. (I think b/c Bruce Lee weighted only 130 lb lol. He couldn't block effectively). I didn't even talk about blocking at all.

In Karate/TKD, you block with your forearm. KT guys condition their forearms with a wooden stick. (Ok, I doubt they do that in McDojo. But that is standard in Asia) Most TKD would pass on blocking as blocking a kick with an arm is pretty much suicide.

When you parry an attack, I doubt you still gonna return with a jab. There should be an openning there for a direct lead hand attack. How do you want to implement the Jeet (intercept) in Jeet Kune Do, is up to you. If you don't think striking the attacking limbs is feasible for you, there is no point in arguing about it. If you can grap and destruct or pull and smash, that works fine. As in JKD, "my way is not your way, your truth is not my truth" --- Bruce Lee.

BTW, what you saw in the AKKI vid, you don't need years to reach such skill level. If you train at it, 3-6 months of heavy duty heavy bag work out, you will have the striking power. There is nothing magical about it.

 

[Bod]

theneuhauser:

what sort of moves did these ryuha use to the multiple opponent effect?

It's more based around their long, low, hip swinging footwork than specific moves. It's combined with punches that swing up from behind the leg, usually punching with the same arm as the leg that is moving.

Its hard to describe, and looks pretty daft one on one, but it worked for me in a multiple attacker situation. If you can see any pictures on Bujinkan sites it'll give you an idea. If you imagine the sort of footwork you see in swordfights in the old Samurai movies and add to that punches moving with the same leg that is stepping you'll get the idea.

 

[Hollywood1340]

Mr. Bell,
Thanks for the info. Ya learn something new everyday. I guess I was speaking moreso along the lines of the JJ, which is primalry Brazilian in orgin, being taught today. (Again I could be wrong).

 

[Damian Mavis]

From what I have seen BJJ and Japanese JJ are very different with Japanese incorporating many strikes. More strikes would be better for multiple opponents I would think.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD