multiple opponent art

[jkn75]

Originally posted by D.Cobb

What about pressure points? Why not go for the knock out? Even if it doesn't work everytime you are still gonna hurt them in a big way. Surely that has some merit.

Good idea (I didn't go for the obvious). I agree that pressure points are effective but I think this would come in when you counter. If you have trained in something that focusses on pressure points, you would use those techniques to attack and defend.

However, I also agree with the line of posts about the armbar. You shouldn't focus on one technique to the detriment of others, you should flow with the situation and if the opportunity to attack a pressure point comes up, then go for it.

:asian:

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by D.Cobb

What about pressure points? Why not go for the knock out? Even if it doesn't work everytime you are still gonna hurt them in a big way. Surely that has some merit.

:asian:

--Dave

Or what about gunting(sp?).......


/Yari

 

[cdhall]

Originally posted by arnisador

Against three attackers I used more reasoning than any one art--line them up, keep moving, try to take one out when you get them as separated as you can--and that reasoning I picked up mostly in kung fu and arnis, but the particular movement ideas from aikido.

How you actually hit them is less the issue than the big strategy I think.

There was another thread on this but I can't recall if it was here, the JKD forum, or elsewhere!

I am Amazed that there is not more mention of Kenpo. Mr. Parker was quoted in "Memories of Ed Parker" as saying in the early 60's that he wanted to develop an art that would allow multiple simultaneous strikes against multiple opponents. I believe this is would occur in the "Gaseous/Spontaneous" States of Motion. Also, I think it is where our "overkill" comes from in that we are training for spontaneity from early on, sequential flowing movements that do not stop due to angle, target availability, etc.

Arnisador mentions several elements that we teach and practice including Zones of Protection and Sanctuary I think, but there is a particular principle that escapes me that deals with using a natural "object" as a shield. I remember that we discussed in class before I saw Street Knight and I thought Mr. Speakman demonstrated it when he shot through one guy to hit another. He had a shield.

Hopefully Mr. C will jump in here and elaborate.
:asian:

 

[knifeman.dk]

I don´t think that a discussion on techiques will help - there will always be differencies, like the strenght and size of your opponent, the numbers of attackers, surroundings will change, climate will change, night or day, weapons or none, your own skill level and the level of the attackers, your capabilty of staying calm and controlling the situation (yes Yari you would call this zen )
I think techniques will vary from person to person, but what is good is the sharing of experience.
Have you tried using your surroundings - putting something in between you and the opponents, use different items as weapons like umbrellas - branches - newspapers - ballpens - teaspoons etc
I would run - shoot - stab - throw items - kick - punch - scream and hope for the best (and i probably missed somethings out here:rofl: )
sincerely knifeman.dk:asian:

 

[7starmantis]

I have seen that one point is pretty much shared between everyone here, that is to encounter multiple opponents is to fight for your life, and there is nothing regimented about that!!


7sm

 

[Bod]

I still go with footwork. Here is my reasoning:

You must take the attack to whom you choose, thus remaining in control.

Cyonara-Do is the art I used, but to get into a position to do a runner, you may have to get past people to your nearest available exit - this is true on the street too, when you have only one safe way to run and you know it.

Punching style can matter. I aimed a big one at the guy in the back, he evaded. One on one, you don't want your opponent to evade, I did because it gave me space to push and run through. Also the guy who first made his move was expecting the interaction, the guy at the back was surprised. If I had connected the punch he would have folded, and I'd have still had that space. I had to move that one guy, as that was the easiest route out, and he was not the first guy I interacted with. You don't always want to hit the first guy you can.

When you train for multiple attackers you can train at first to beat many unskilled people. I hope I don't ever meet that bunch again, because next time they'll probably close up faster, having picked up that little bit more skill.

They'll probably pick on someone smaller though.

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by Bod

Cyonara-Do

Never heard about this. please tell more....

Punching style can matter. I aimed a big one at the guy in the back, he evaded. One on one, you don't want your opponent to evade, I did because it gave me space to push and run through. Also the guy who first made his move was expecting the interaction, the guy at the back was surprised. If I had connected the punch he would have folded, and I'd have still had that space. I had to move that one guy, as that was the easiest route out, and he was not the first guy I interacted with. You don't always want to hit the first guy you can.

THis was interesting. Gives me some thoughts. Nice!

/Yari

 

[7starmantis]

I think he menas the "art" of running away


7sm

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by KennethKu

Against 9-11 attackers? The footwork I use would be "Sayonara-Do"

HAHA, I'm retarded:rofl: :rofl:

It's this project I'm workign on, making this video as a memorial, got my head on it, but I thought you guys were talking about the September 11th attackers! I was like, why the hell would you guys be running away from these guys! We need to defend ourselves! :rofl:

I got all up in arms about it too! Wow, that was embarrasing! I get it now, 9, 10, or 11 people attacking you! :rofl:


7sm

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by 7starmantis

I think he menas the "art" of running away


7sm

Ops...... Jump into that one..... Cyonara-do.... :rofl:

/Yari (goes over to lurking mode.....)

 

[Bod]

On re-reading 9-11 people does read wrongly. Nine to eleven sounds like time to get out of bed though, so I'm glad we got that all sorted out.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
HAHA, I'm retarded:rofl: :rofl:

It's this project I'm workign on, making this video as a memorial, got my head on it, but I thought you guys were talking about the September 11th attackers! I was like, why the hell would you guys be running away from these guys! We need to defend ourselves! :rofl:

I got all up in arms about it too! Wow, that was embarrasing! I get it now, 9, 10, or 11 people attacking you! :rofl:

7sm

 

[Bod]

Besides I'm English. We say 11/9 or 11th Sep. .

But I'm not daft enough to not know what you all mean.

And you're right - there are definately times when we shouldn't be running away.

Anybody been in a situation where you had to protect somebody from multiple attackers, maybe get them moving?

I'll tell you what happened in my case, against three attackers, with my girlfriend of the time in another post, but it was mostly luck, as I didn't train at the time, and was certainly not streetwise.

 

[7starmantis]

Please feel free to tell us. I can't speak for everyone in here, but it would fit this thread in my opinion.


7sm

 

[sweeper]

ok first off, havn't been able to get on for a few days that's why I'm so late to respond, that post I made about judo kid asking about kicking I just mnessed up, I was reading two threds at once and I guess I thought this was the other thred and couldn't figure out why everyone was talking about multiple attackers sorrey about that.

Damian Mavis I know what you meant when you said "philosophy" I mean more specificly what do you dislike about the methodology?

about a standing arm bar or a cross armbar( think that's the one where you have both their legs across their body and you hyper extend the elboe with your hip) standing armbar can be applied fairly easily if your opponant isn't activly resisting, you can start it off simular to a boxing clynch (basicly grabbing their elboe and pulling in tight) than just lean back and pop your shoulder/arm up or throw your knee up, the point of the elboe has to be facing down though and you do have to get control. As to the cross armbar on the ground. The only way to get into it is to get a partial standing position and go back down (even if you are both on the ground you have to get one foot over the arm) so you have one foot checking, the other is a stomp or thrust kick to the head, I would argue that that will serve as a slight distraction, but the main thing is arching your back and thrusting your hips up, I see no reason you couldn't get this off before you hit the ground in a fall, so if you do do it it should be like in a field sport when you fall down and "bounce" right back up, if there is room you should be able to hit and come up before anyone closes, it should be done and you should be up in a split second, if it takes longer than that don't do it. (you jsut got a kick off to their face if the arm bar doesn't work let go and do something else it isn't like they are gona grapple your ancle right off).

as to the arguement that you should seek anything in a fight, I disagree, I think people should know their strengths, I'm not saying you should go blindly for a single tech no matter what and to the exclusion of everything else, I haven't seen anyone here say that you should chose an attack in exclusion of another, but if you have a prefered way of doing things you can set them up, it's probably instinctive, but there are junktions in fights whee you have a choice what way to go, if you move tards your strengths you should have an advantage (of course all things must be taken into consideration and grappling might not be great if you are getting flanked)

I think someone said something to the effect of "put your back up against a wall" ? If so I totyaly disagree with that, move away from the walls and givbe yourself some breathing room..

 

[J-kid]

i noted to go agaist a wall in less you plan on running because they will flank you if you are agaist a wall, THey cant get behind you and there are many standing arm bars i can applied , I dont know how to describe them but , There are many sites covering BJJ and other forms of JUDO/JIJUTSU i do a form called AJW (american Jacket Wrestling) my coach has a awsome class. works on Judo JiJutsu Wrestling and every form of wrestling.

 

[knifeman.dk]

If you have a wall behind you - use it. If you actually get one of the attackers smash him/her up against the wall. Let the wall be a friend. About the armbars...I once read a funny story in The Probe, off course about Paul Vunak and his full senior instructor Tom Cruise (no - not the actor) - the story was - that they had been teaching the special forces and went to a biker bar from out of hell with a few of the military guys. The story continues that they all get mixed up in a fight with all the bikers (and there where many!), and the special force team took one attacker at the time like a syncronized swimteam - and left the two PFS instructors with the rest.
The story ended with the two guys beating the group with all possible means - no special techniques but agressive attitude and the will to survive.
I don´t know if the story could benefit anyone or even move a thought - but i think it is rather neat, don´t you?
sincerely knifeman.dk:asian:

 

[KennethKu]

I like to see Paul Vunak going into the biker bar alone.

Going up against multiple attackers, cannot be a sound long term survival strategy.

 

[Bod]

OK, here are some of my multiple attacker experiences except for the one I detailed earlier, and the lessons I learned.

#1. This was the first time I got mugged, I was 16 and shorter then. The first guy stopped trying to steal a car with the rest of his friends, ran up to me and slammed me against a chain link fence. Great they couldn't attack me from behind! No problem, they kicked and punched me from the front. Being up against a wall and being held by one person is like being held by three people. I got quite a beating by the 5 or 6 guys.

#2. This time I was 17 and a whole year wiser, but no taller. I saw the three coming. One was bigger than me, one my size and one smaller. I said to my girlfriend 'lets move'.

'Don't be stupid' she said 'you've been jumpy ever since you got mugged that time'. They walked past, turned around and slammed my girlfriend against some iron railings. I snapped and tackled the big guy against the railings. He punched me in the eye and pulled a knife, pointing it at my eyeball.

I calmed down.

He pushed me back to the railings, near to my girlfriend. The amaller guys rifled my pockets, he rifled my girlfriends pockets and held the knife on her.

Notice a recurring theme of fences here.

My girlfriend wouldn't give up the PIN numbers to her cashcards. Big Guy threatened to stab her and was getting irate. I was thinking fast but couldn't see a way out. The smallest guy is beginning to enjoy this, and in an effort to humiliate me commands 'Jump up and down and act like a monkey'.

I jump once, twice, and on the third time push/punch the middle guy and hit the knife guy with everything I've got, grabbing my girlfriend and running pulling her along. I figure if she's running I can deal with the consequences.

I looked back and all three were sprawled on the ground, the big one on his hands and knees, looking for his knife I think. I hadn't even hit the smallest one. It must have been my Ki!

Or his fear of looking stupid if he doesn't chase us.

Or my Ki!!!!

Later that night the police said that he stabbed a single woman, and six months later I was unable to pick him out of a line up. My girlfriend went back to Northern Ireland to live with her mother, because she was so shaken up. I lose. Bummer.

#3. Two guys approach me, 17, and demand my cash. I run. I slip in my smooth soled shoes. I roll into a ball. I get kicked unconscious. I buy shoes with grippier soles in future.

No fences involved.

#4. Two more guys chase me, 17 1/2, taller. They catch up with me. I turn to face them. I am wearing steel toe capped boots (with grippy soles) I have now taken to carrying a great club up my sleeve, homemade from reinforced concrete, wrapped in electrical tape. I slip it down behind my leg. The biggest (and these guys were big) asks me why I ran.

I say 'because you chased me'.

He says 'I only wanted a light'.

I say 'I haven't got one'.

He takes a pen from my top pocket and says 'Nice pen'.

I say 'Yes', not moving a muscle. His friend starts looking nervous.

'Weren't you in my brother's class at school?' I ask him.

The first guy puts the pen back into my top pocket, and they both leave.

I would have hit him, and got sent to prison and my life would be crap now. Later on I stopped carrying a club with me everywhere I went.

Moral of the story - some guys can run faster than you.

#5. Finally I have taken up martial arts! I am not very good however. I am 18, and taller still.

I am walking home, through a car park (parking lot) at 1 in the morning. Four dodgy looking guys walk across me about forty yards away. Just like every incidence before they are not talking. This is a very strange way for such youths to behave.

Then they turn back and walk towards me again. Very strange. I wait for a passing car and cross the road towards them, but stop. and with a broad smile on my face follow the tail lights of the car. Then I turn towards them and smile broadly.

They do an about turn and leave me alone. Cool.

#6. Scary. I consider myself quite good at both martial arts and running by now, I am 22. I'm not so good at drinking, and it is two in the morning. I've had a great night, I am very drunk indeed, and I am in a very happy mood, full of good cheer and good will.

When I see two very grown men in the distance (40 yards?) carrying television sets I assume they are moving house at two in the morning. So I shout, thinking that I am hilarious, 'Don't nick televisions!'

Reader thinks - 'leave him to his fate this guy is so stupid he should not reproduce and contaminate the human race further'.

But I live to tell the tale.

40 Yards later I am oblivious to the fact that they have put down their(?) television sets and are awaiting my approach. One of them sort of slaps me about the neck, and I swerve drunkenly to avoid this.

I turn to look at him with a bewildered look on my face and he is standing in front of the other guy crouched holding a 12" kitchen knife out in front of him!

Lordy f&+%!!!!

The thought 'I can't fight or even run' squelches through my sodden brain.

'It's all right mate I'm drunk' I say and give him a sheepish grin.

'Well we aren't drunk', he says 'were just going about our business, now you go about yours'.

'All right mate' I said, and turned and walked away, praying he wouldn't stab me in the back.

A hundred yards down the road the cold February air hit my neck and I felt a stinging on my neck. Then I realised that he hadn't slapped me at all. I touched my neck but it wasn't bleeding.

I was so angry at myself for being so stupid, and for getting so drunk and helpless.

Three miles later, when I got home I looked at my neck in the mirror and saw what looked like two shaving cuts. I knew he'd meant to kill me, because if I hadn't swerved that's what would have happened.

No I have never been that drunk and out of doors since.

#7. I am 24 and run into the nine to eleven guys after getting on the wrong train. But you know all about that already.

So what have I learned?

Being against a fence is not good.

Just because you are feeling friendly does not mean everybody else is.

Be careful how much you drink.

Watch out for groups of people behaving suspiciously. If a group of men aren't talking, or walking as everybody else does, trying to impress each other etc. then ask why. Sometimes they have just finished playing football and they are exhausted, but this shows in their walk and the way they are carrying a ball.

Footwork matters. Wear sensible shoes.

You can talk/act your way out of more situations than you can run from or fight you way out of, but make it to the point - 'I am not worth the hassle' or 'I can't hurt you, look I'm walking'. I have also talked my way out/ ran away from other confrontations, but these weren't multiple attackers. I learned early on that you have to get a message across that will make a pretty nasty person reconsider. The only one I have found to work is 'This isn't worth it', but you have to word it carefully or they read 'I am scared'.
Certainly don't imply 'This isn't fair' which means 'Look I am really clueless'.

When you act, act explosively and decisively.

That's all folks.

 

[D.Cobb]

It's one thing to get caught in a situation, but to go looking for one, is another matter entirely. Paul Vunak is good, there is no denying that but what gives him the right to go looking for trouble? That is just showing off, he should be above that! As martial artists we know that the best defense is don't be there, so why would someone as well trained as PV put himself into this kind of situation?
Does he have a complex of some kind?
This is the sort of macho bravado tough guy crap that gets people killed.

--Dave:soapbox: